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New Sennheiser MKH8000 Series Mics Condenser Microphones
Old 15th November 2009
  #391
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Very nice.

ABBA
Old 15th November 2009
  #392
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Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
.....attached you can find the supplied graphs of the two non matched MKH8050
You *can* actually get matched MKH 8050 if you want them.

Special order and the same price as two individual units.
Old 16th November 2009
  #393
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It's possible I received a matched pair. I asked for it but the shop told me that the info they got from Sennheiser was that there was no matched pairs/stereo pairs of MKH8050.

Looking at the two MKH8040 pairs there seem to be little need to match these mic's due to the (seemingly) very tight manufacturing tolerances.

Any news on a fig 8. mic in the MKH8000 series?


/Peter
Old 16th November 2009
  #394
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Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
It's possible I received a matched pair. I asked for it but the shop told me that the info they got from Sennheiser was that there was no matched pairs/stereo pairs of MKH8050.
Ignore the shop - although there is no official matched pair of MKH 8050, you *can* order them. The local Sennheiser agent has to order them specially from Germany - he orders two MKH 8050 and asks for them to be supplied as a matched pair. The price is the same as for the two single units.

This originally came about from an enquiry posted here on Gearslutz - it's not a regular product as the demand is small, but *will* be done to special order.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
Any news on a fig 8. mic in the MKH8000 series?
It's in the programme, but no news yet.

An alternative in the meantime would be the Neumann KK 120 head with the KM-A module (the KM-A is coming out in the next few weeks and is an analogue module that uses all the heads of the KM-D digital series.
Old 16th November 2009
  #395
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Thanks for your info John, much appreciated. thumbsup


/Peter
Old 25th November 2009
  #396
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I was watching the published graphs of the 8000 series and was wondering.. at what distance are the mic's measured..

Anyone have some information on this?

Line Audio for example publish graphs of their mic's (at least for the hypo/sub-cardioid CM3) at 30cm and 1m.


/Peter
Old 25th November 2009
  #397
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Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
I was watching the published graphs of the 8000 series and was wondering.. at what distance are the mic's measured..
All Sennheiser and Neumann mics are measured at the standard distance of 1-metre.

If you measure closer it gives a false impression of bass response as proximity effect then comes into play.

So - it's 1-metre - so you get a proper indication of the frequency response.
Old 25th November 2009
  #398
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Yes, I was thinking on directional mic's and proximity effect. Perhaps the midbass bump of 8040/8050 is gone at 2m or more..?


/Peter
Old 20th February 2010
  #399
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Interesting tests of MKH8000:

Microphone Polar Patterns - Video Examples to learn from at DVcreators.net

The results is what one can expect from measurements and also basically mirrors my impression in real use.

I have all of the three MKH8000 mics.


/Peter
Old 21st February 2010
  #400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
Interesting tests of MKH8000:

Microphone Polar Patterns - Video Examples to learn from at DVcreators.net

The results is what one can expect from measurements and also basically mirrors my impression in real use.

I have all of the three MKH8000 mics.


/Peter
...which among other things clearly shows that if you want real omni, you need a smaller capsule!

::
Mads
Old 21st February 2010
  #401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mljung View Post
...which among other things clearly shows that if you want real omni, you need a smaller capsule!

::
Mads
Yep!

Or compromise with a diffuse field curve and/or a double membrane.

Baffle mounting improves the balance/polar pattern as well but obviously has limited use.

I still haven't done a side by side with MKH8020 and QTC1 but I frequently use MKH8020 as room/ambient mic and always add some gain from 4kHz-20kHz. Much to dull otherwise IME.


/Peter
Old 21st February 2010
  #402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
I still haven't done a side by side with MKH8020 and QTC1 but I frequently use MKH8020 as room/ambient mic and always add some gain from 4kHz-20kHz. Much to dull otherwise IME.
My limited experience with the 8020 is similar... At least when used at a distance.
Old 21st February 2010
  #403
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Which is normal because the 8020 frequency response is closer to a free field one (flat) than a diffused field one (+ 6 dB bump @ 10 kHz).
Old 22nd February 2010
  #404
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Yes, of course. The MKH20 had a switch for internal compensation, yes?
The DPA solution seems more elegant.
Old 22nd February 2010
  #405
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DPA is unique and clever. But it is more elegant to pull a switch rather than screw a grid onto a capsule with the membrane exposed IMO. A lot can be done with EQ, if you don't consider EQ the devil
Old 22nd February 2010
  #406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio ergo sum View Post
DPA is unique and clever. But it is more elegant to pull a switch rather than screw a grid onto a capsule with the membrane exposed IMO. A lot can be done with EQ, if you don't consider EQ the devil
Additionally the decompensation of the pressure effect only gives a diffuse-field-like equalization up to about 10 kHz whereas electronically, you can do a true linear diffuse field response eq. up to 20 kHz.
Pressure zone and diffuse field equalization is often confused but not exactly the same.

Nils
Old 22nd February 2010
  #407
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Good point there Nils!


/Peter
Old 23rd February 2010
  #408
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"I have all of the three MKH8000 mics."

Peter, how would you describe the difference in sound between the
Sennheiser 8040 and Line Audio Cm3 ?
Old 23rd February 2010
  #409
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Mhk8030?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
It's in the programme, but no news yet.
What is the particular issue in adapting this capsule to the 80xxrange? Engineering? I think not! Market priority? More likely. But I find it strange that if you re trying to migrate your customer base to new technology, you don't offer the the complete capability.

I might find some interest in the digital head if I knew I could replicate my M-S setup that way. (And possibly more elegantly - where is the stereo/two channel digital head on the product roadmap?) Maybe Harman marketing needs to up its game!
Old 23rd February 2010
  #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
What is the particular issue in adapting this capsule to the 80xxrange? Engineering? I think not! Market priority? More likely. But I find it strange that if you re trying to migrate your customer base to new technology, you don't offer the the complete capability.
The fig-8 is a completely different capsule, it's not an adaption of a cardioid. And the fi8-8 *is* the most difficult to design; which is why there are so very few single diaphragm fig-8s around and most doing it the lazy way by using back-to-back cardioids instead,

And, if you remember, the MKH 30 was several years after the rest of the MKH 40 range.

Although I *do* agree with your sentiments and am very impatient myself for the MKH 8030 to come out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
I might find some interest in the digital head if I knew I could replicate my M-S setup that way. (And possibly more elegantly - where is the stereo/two channel digital head on the product roadmap?) Maybe Harman marketing needs to up its game!
The MZD 8000 digital unit has been out for quite a few months now.

You can do digital MS with an MKH 8040 + MZD 8000 and a Neumann KK 120 + KM-D.

You could also do it with an MKH 8040, KK 120 + KM-A, an MZD 8000 and a custom Y-cable.
Old 23rd February 2010
  #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
"I have all of the three MKH8000 mics."

Peter, how would you describe the difference in sound between the
Sennheiser 8040 and Line Audio Cm3 ?
I have only done a few side by side comparisons but I feel they are close. You have the noise difference which may or may not be audible and sometimes you get the feeling of slightly cleaner sound (higher resolution) from 8040.

A while ago me and a friend recorded acoustic guitar with them side by side and felt 8040 was better (more naturally sounding) by a small but clear margin. Re-positioning the mic's slightly removed that difference and we felt they sounded almost identical.

The polar pattern will make them sound more different at a distance CM3 is close to MK21 while MKH8040 is closer to an ideal cardioid.

I sold my CM3 to a friend that needed a pro-quality mic but I will buy two new pairs. Problem is I need to get into town basically the same day my retailer gets a delivery. They sell out in a couple of days when they receive them.


/Peter
Old 23rd February 2010
  #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
..... felt 8040 was better (more naturally sounding) by a small but clear margin.
Part of this is due to the symmetrical capsule which reduces intermodulation distortion by a very great amount compared to other condenser microphones. This was the main reason I went over to the symmetrical capsule series in the first place.
Old 23rd February 2010
  #413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
Part of this is due to the symmetrical capsule which reduces intermodulation distortion by a very great amount compared to other condenser microphones. This was the main reason I went over to the symmetrical capsule series in the first place.
John, there's a slight difference in 9+10kHz and 19+20kHz CCIF IMD between MKH8000 and CM3 but the Earthworks QTC1 with the non-symmetrical electret capsule performs as well as MKH's.

Also while a symmetrical design reduces some IMD it's only those products from the quadratic term. The cubic term products does not change.

IOW a device that has harmonic distortion always has IMD but the type of nonlinearity (symmetrical vs. asymmetrical) is what dictates what kind of IMD products.


Tests I have done indicates lower amplitudes of the IMD products though for a given amplitude of 2:nd vs, 3:rd order harmonic when the input stimuli is a pure sine. This is interesting with mic's since they are typically more nonlinear in the high range. Also interesting with tweeters.

Since HD in the upper range typically fall around and above 20kHz the HD itself is not much to fear but IMD folds down into the range where we are most sensitive and the "down-folded" IMD/difference tones seems to be at a lower level with symmetrical nonlinearities IF the 2nd and 3rd order harmonic products of a pure sine is used as a reference.

This is something I can not master with math and I have not read anything about it but measurements and simulations I have done point in this direction.

Possibly microphones and tweeters should have symmetrical nonlinearities but a midrange speaker unit could possibly benefit from asymmetrical nonlinearites since harmonic products end up in the ears most sensitive range.

A 1kHz tone played back on the midrange speaker ouptuts a 2kHz tone and/or a 3kHz tone depending on the type of nonlinearity and the 2nd order product is less audible than the 3rd if amplitudes are the same.

Food for thought and further studies.


/Peter
Old 23rd February 2010
  #414
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I understand the design difficulties of a pure pressure-difference capsule, but as Sennheiser already has several examples, I would have thought the design math would have been well rehearsed and it should have been as easy as other patterns to port it to the new environment. Hence commercial considerations are more likely as the reason for the lower priority. (The Schoeps digital preamp accepts the existing MK4 and MK8 capsules but unfortunately currently only supports Mode 1 asynchronous, which slightly complicates using them in M-S.)

I realise that it is possible to make a hybrid digital assembly utilising some of the new components, but as the AES-42 standard supports two channels, like AES-3, it would be nice to think that on the roadmap, a native two channel stereo system is in view.

Like the push-pull valve amps of old, symmetrical systems indeed drive down the even-order (musical) harmonics, but re-inforce the odd-order (non-musical) harmonics. This may explain why a colleague finds the MKH series exhibit traces of internal 'dissonance' amongst their other more favourable qualities.

Last edited by panatrope; 23rd February 2010 at 10:54 PM.. Reason: clarity
Old 24th February 2010
  #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
Like the push-pull valve amps of old, symmetrical systems indeed drive down the even-order (musical) harmonics,
To my ears there's nothing musical with nonlinearities that causes even order harmonics since with music as signal there's IMD.

Quote:
but re-inforce the odd-order (non-musical) harmonics.
I haven't looked into it with own studies or read anything detailed about it but do you suggest that as you lower the asymmetri of a system you atuomatically increase symmetric nonlinearities?

Quote:
This may explain why a colleague finds the MKH series exhibit traces of internal 'dissonance' amongst their other more favourable qualities.
Measurements I've done indicate equal levels of 2nd and 3rd order harmonics and at similar levels as standard condenser and electret designs.


/Peter
Old 24th February 2010
  #416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
I understand the design difficulties of a pure pressure-difference capsule, but as Sennheiser already has several examples, I would have thought the design math would have been well rehearsed and it should have been as easy as other patterns to port it to the new environment.
No it's not, I have had several conversations with the designer as I desperately want the MKH 8030 myself. It's a lot more difficult - and remember that the fig-8 is a single diaphragm side-fire and all the rest are end-fire.


Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
I realise that it is possible to make a hybrid digital assembly utilising some of the new components, but as the AES-42 standard supports two channels, like AES-3, it would be nice to think that on the roadmap, a native two channel stereo system is in view.
The two-channel MZD 8000 digital module is on the market now, I have used it several times with a pair of 8040 heads in ORTF mode.
Old 24th February 2010
  #417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
I haven't looked into it with own studies or read anything detailed about it but do you suggest that as you lower the asymmetri of a system you atuomatically increase symmetric nonlinearities? ... Measurements I've done indicate equal levels of 2nd and 3rd order harmonics and at similar levels as standard condenser and electret designs. /Peter
No, somewhat the reverse. What I am suggesting is that 'symmetrical'/balanced design will tend to lower even order (2nd, 4th, etc.) distortions, both harmonic and IMD. Because odd order (3rd, 5th 7th, etc.) are generally not reduced by 'symmetrical'/balanced designs, the proportions of odd order distortion to even order distortion is increased. And because odd order harmonic distortions are at 'non-musical' intervals, especially at higher orders, this may be a cause of increased perception of 'dissonance'.

I agree that IMD will almost always produce products that are non harmonically related, and the above may not apply. But the nature of the non-linearity that produces it may also be of a dynamic rather than static nature.
Old 24th February 2010
  #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
No it's not, I have had several conversations with the designer as I desperately want the MKH 8030 myself. It's a lot more difficult - and remember that the fig-8 is a single diaphragm side-fire and all the rest are end-fire.

The two-channel MZD 8000 digital module is on the market now, I have used it several times with a pair of 8040 heads in ORTF mode.
I understand the difference between the capsules .. what I was remarking is they already have the design precedent of the MKH30, and one would expect porting it to the MKH8000 environment should follow the same process as the 20/40/50. If however, they are aiming in the process to implement the pattern via a new improved process, then yes they may take more time.

The User Guide for the MZD 8000 indicates that it is a 2-channel device - but says nothing about how to implement it. In the accessories list in the manual they mention a stereo bar (MZGE 8002) but it does not appear in their on-line catalogue. Can you give more info? OK on ORTF (a bit like the Schoeps ORTF head?), but what we need next is the M-S head (sounds like you would be in agreement on that).

Last edited by panatrope; 24th February 2010 at 05:52 AM.. Reason: Correction
Old 24th February 2010
  #419
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
I understand the difference between the capsules .. what I was remarking is they already have the design precedent of the MKH30, and one would expect porting it to the MKH8000 environment should follow the same process as the 20/40/50. If however, they are aiming in the process to implement the pattern via a new improved process, then yes they may take more time.
...
AFAIK the process of fixing the membrane to the backplate is fundamentally different between the old and new MKH series. Old is with screws. New is with glue. But I don't know for sure.
Old 24th February 2010
  #420
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An interesting insight - and a caveat emptor. Always be wary of process changes! (Ask RME!)

As explained to me by Jurg Wuttke, the pure pressure difference capsule is a greater challenge because you are trying to sense a pressure difference over an essentially fixed small distance. Now of course for the same amplitude pressure wave, the pressure difference across a particular distance is inversely proportional to wavelength. Hence at low frequencies you are looking at pressure difference and therefore implicit voltage output that is diminishing at the rate of 6dB/octave. The design compromises needed to maintain a reasonable voltage output at low frequencies was offered as the explanation why the MK8 showed a self-noise several dB higher than the omni. (19dBA compared with 12 dBA)

The MKH30/20 comparison is interesting. The difference in self noise is smaller (13dBA vs 10dBA). The other is that, compared to the equivalent Schoeps capsules, published responses for the pressure difference capsule (30) does not show the increased rate of low frequency roll-off expected compared the the omni - all capsules are shown ruler-flat to 40Hz. (Not to mention the 40 and 50). I find this hard to believe. I do not think this can be explained solely by the use of the RF principle compared to the electrostatic.

Perhaps, as someone else (almost) said: "There are three types of falsehoods - lies, damned lies, and microphone specifications."
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