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Affordable omnis for ambience
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
Rtroost's Avatar
Affordable omnis for ambience

Hi-

Ive read scores of threads about omnis here and at taperssection but am no closer to enlightenment. So...

Whats a good alternative to the 8020 or mkh20 for outdoors spaced pair ambience recordings without breaking the bank?

I own some c480s that I can fit with ck62s
A pair of om1s would come in that same range.
All my other omnis are LDCs

But as i plan to take these outdoors (kent, kenya, and even kentucky) does anyone have experience with them outdoors...and Is there no such thing as an affordable rf-biased omni?

Lots of questions, but one basic theme.

Fwiw i’ll be recording with a mixpre-6 and curve correcting with izotope or with rnd 551s if distant stuff needs brightening. Ill be fitting these on a homemade bracket in a rycote about 30cm apart, back to back if theyre long and side by side if they're teeny.

Any advice or experience gratefully received.

Rens
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtroost View Post
Hi-

Ive read scores of threads about omnis here and at taperssection but am no closer to enlightenment. So...

Whats a good alternative to the 8020 or mkh20 for outdoors spaced pair ambience recordings without breaking the bank?

I own some c480s that I can fit with ck62s
A pair of om1s would come in that same range.
All my other omnis are LDCs

But as i plan to take these outdoors (kent, kenya, and even kentucky) does anyone have experience with them outdoors...and Is there no such thing as an affordable rf-biased omni?

Lots of questions, but one basic theme.

Fwiw i’ll be recording with a mixpre-6 and curve correcting with izotope or with rnd 551s if distant stuff needs brightening. Ill be fitting these on a homemade bracket in a rycote about 30cm apart, back to back if theyre long and side by side if they're teeny.

Any advice or experience gratefully received.

Rens
I use AT4022’s with my MixPre6 to record trains and thunderstorms. I think they’re great.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #3
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celticrogues's Avatar
 

DPA 4060’s are pretty great on a budget. A little bit noisy but until you get into the price range of the MKH’s they sound nice. Pretty weather resistant too.

-Mike
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4
Gear Maniac
 
Rtroost's Avatar
Thanks @ dogmusic and @ celticrogues

4022 seems spot on. Im happy with my bp4025 (on my 2nd one) and its proven reasonably durable.

Curious if anyone has c480/ck62 uls experience outdoors. I have a pair with ck61s that i use pretty often for closeup on instruments, so id just need the capsules in theory.

I dont think the 4060s will work in this application; I suspect the noise would come through.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #5
Related: Affordable omnis for ambience

Try Rode NT45-o omnis. They will give lovely detail and low end to boot.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #6
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtroost View Post
I own some c480s that I can fit with ck62s
Personally, in your shoes I'd be tempted by this option above all others, although anything but an RF mic (like the MKHs) might well struggle in very humid environments: CK62s should be fine for Kent. As would the NT5/55 with NT45-o capsules, but Kenya (coastal) and Kentucky (no idea) could be rather different!

Here's a link to someone who found the CK62s struggling with humidity: http://songsfromthewood.de/gear.html

Cheers,

Roland
Old 3 weeks ago
  #7
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtroost View Post
Ill be fitting these on a homemade bracket in a rycote about 30cm apart, back to back if theyre long and side by side if they're teeny.
I wouldn't bother with a homemade bracket, but instead suggest using a simple rewired female-to-female xlr coupler. This gives an overall length with NT55s of 350mm, sufficient for a spaced pair. The triple photo shows the set up I posted a couple of years ago (see post 14 at Dual omni for stereo) and the single (detail) photo shows a more recent version I made with higher quality Neutrik parts (and which slightly increases the spacing).

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Roland
Attached Thumbnails
Affordable omnis for ambience-_rhd9746.jpg   Affordable omnis for ambience-nt55_omni_pair_in_blimp_lo_res.jpg  
Old 3 weeks ago
  #8
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tourtelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 View Post
a simple rewired female-to-female xlr coupler.
THIS is an AWESOME idea!! And a nice construction job as well.

D.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #9
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
THIS is an AWESOME idea!! And a nice construction job as well.

D.
Thanks Doug: too kind!

Cheers,

Roland
Old 3 weeks ago
  #10
Beautiful! A round of applause!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #11
Here for the gear
 

I'm gonna be THE GUY here and mention the RadioShack PZMs. I have all the vintage 80's ones, and the Omni made by shure which I believe is the 1070c, is one of the most versatile mics i own. You can find these relatively cheap.The 1070b's are the retro popular ones (not true omni but same effect) and you can mod the them like crazy if you so desire.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #12
Here for the gear
 

The LOM or Micbooster primo EM172 capsule mics are really nice for not much money.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #13
Gear Guru
 
jwh1192's Avatar
i have never tried these but cheap enough to buy a few in case one gets damaged ... behringer microphones hmmm ... i know but you never know ... i was sent a pair of 29.99 IDK Pearl Mics and they sound great except no Omni capsules ..

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...8ee2961e5037d0
Old 3 weeks ago
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
Rtroost's Avatar
Thanks for all the replies!

Roland, i’d seen your design on some other forum (jw? Ts?) will definitely go that way if i end up with pencils.

What im taking away from this conversation is that there is no low-noise moisture-friendly alternative to the mkh 20 or 8020 suitable for ambience/field recording. I think that is going to push me toward a pair of om-1’s as thats comparable to and cheaper than getting ck2s for my 480s.

Those OM Usi pro mics look interesting but show sold out. Thanks for putting that on the table j_rogers

So maybe its down to LOM vs line audio. Lots more field reports about line audio....

Anyone want to let go of a pair of 8020s cheap?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #15
Lives for gear
 

Many people use the Audio Technica AT4022 for field recording gathering from what I've read, with a very quite and natural sound. We tried a pair to record a small grand piano and they were very close to a pair of Earthworks QTC40 omni's. Nice crisp clean sound compared to MKH 8020 mics which have a more smooth rounded sound and thicker bass.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #16
Lives for gear
How about Avenson STO? Cheaper than Earthwork at $550 a pair.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #17
Here for the gear
 

Another vote for Rode- this time NT5's. I bought a couple pairs years ago and although they are cardioid, you can buy the omni capsules for 40 bucks each and can be used in a variety of situations.....without breaking the bank.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #18
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtroost View Post
Thanks for all the replies!

Roland, i’d seen your design on some other forum (jw? Ts?) will definitely go that way if i end up with pencils.

What im taking away from this conversation is that there is no low-noise moisture-friendly alternative to the mkh 20 or 8020 suitable for ambience/field recording. I think that is going to push me toward a pair of om-1’s as thats comparable to and cheaper than getting ck2s for my 480s.

Those OM Usi pro mics look interesting but show sold out. Thanks for putting that on the table j_rogers

So maybe its down to LOM vs line audio. Lots more field reports about line audio....

Anyone want to let go of a pair of 8020s cheap?
Yes, you are right in that there isn't a cheap RF condenser SDC omni mic that is an alternative to the MKH mics, which remain your best bet (cost aside). Assessing the performance in high humidity of the (non-RF) cheaper alternatives is difficult, since, as you will have seen, the little information out there is anecdotal, sometimes contradictory, and, of course, may not be relevant to your intended use. If really recording in very high humidity, I would avoid getting ck62s for your 480s, which otherwise sounds such an attractive proposition. Indeed, if going somewhere very humid, I'd rather have AKG's cheaper Blueline mics (which I do have) with me, with their electret design and, I'd suggest, better reliability in such conditions; I'd also rather take these than my 'true' condenser NT55s (which I have found fine wherever I've used them in the UK and Europe).

The OM1s and Primo EM172 capsule mics are both electrets and, again, probably better with high humidity. I can't speak for the OM1s, but, as you say, there is plenty of enthusiastic discussion of them, including use for field/ambient/nature recording: whether or not the 18dBA self-noise will be an issue rather depends on what you plan to record (obviously). I've used the EM172s for several years (buying either as bare capsules or as finished mics, all from Micbooster, who are excellent to deal with and, of course, are in the UK like you anyway) for projects where I need the minimal size/discretion of a lav mic but with much better self-noise (14dBA): the bare capsules also lend themselves to playing around with mini SASS-type setups etc. And both types of mics are cheap enough (and cheap to have both).

Finally, I wouldn't be overly afraid of humidity: good to be prepared for it (and look after mics well when not recording), especially if taking a small rig abroad, but in the often-damp UK I often take LDCs (e.g. Rode NT2a + NT1 MS) into nature when I need extremely low self-noise and I'm not alone on this.

Cheers,

Roland
Old 3 weeks ago
  #19
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Plush's Avatar
You will find that the Shure KSM-141 is an excellent omni mic. It also includes an excellent cardioid pattern. Shure's copy of a Schoeps CMC65.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #20
Gear Nut
 

+1 For the shure ksm141
Old 3 weeks ago
  #21
Gear Maniac
 
Rtroost's Avatar
thanks again all! Good info.

I'm going to go with a pair of micbooster EM-172 omnis and will test them out in rainy london as the autumn sets in. If they do ok in those conditions they should be good to go for coastal and riverine morning/evening ambiences. If not, well hey ho I just bought a pair of omni lavs and I'll look into the other options.

remember, send me all your unwanted MKH omnis !
Old 1 week ago
  #22
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zvukofor's Avatar
Just listened to ambiences recorded with a pair of Nevaton MC 59 - a stunning mics! Very low self-noise, linear, and i liked them better than mkh-20, they’re more close to Schoeps in terms of how “natural” they sounds.
Old 1 week ago
  #23
Here for the gear
I second the AT4022s. I have used a pair for a few different and musically-varying concerts this past week, and they provide a nice, clean sound. Very easy to work with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogmusic View Post
I use AT4022’s with my MixPre6 to record trains and thunderstorms. I think they’re great.
Old 1 day ago
  #24
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mljung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zvukofor View Post
Just listened to ambiences recorded with a pair of Nevaton MC 59 - a stunning mics! Very low self-noise, linear, and i liked them better than mkh-20, they’re more close to Schoeps in terms of how “natural” they sounds.
Interesting, I like to hear more about them, but the noise-level seem impossible, for such a small microphone, is it preamplifier specs only or what is happening here? To quote from their website: Very low self noise (5 dBA) coupled with high SPL handling (140dB)

::
Mads
Old 1 day ago
  #25
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zvukofor's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mljung View Post
Interesting, I like to hear more about them, but the noise-level seem impossible, for such a small microphone, is it preamplifier specs only or what is happening here? To quote from their website: Very low self noise (5 dBA) coupled with high SPL handling (140dB)

::
Mads
Yeap, this small company make impossible things. As a music recording engineer i dont care about noise levels, but almost all fellow sound designers and movie sound engineers has Nevatones and praise them. Now i’ve heard why )
Old 1 day ago
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zvukofor View Post
Very low self-noise, linear, and i liked them better than mkh-20, they’re more close to Schoeps in terms of how “natural” they sounds.
Not really all that linear compared to DPA or Schoeps

omni

cardioid
Old 1 day ago
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mljung View Post
Interesting, I like to hear more about them, but the noise-level seem impossible, for such a small microphone, is it preamplifier specs only or what is happening here? To quote from their website: Very low self noise (5 dBA) coupled with high SPL handling (140dB)

::
Mads
dB-A noise figures are often to be taken with a grain of salt. This window can result in figures around 10-11dB in favor of the manufacturer than the better suited CCIR number. (which is why many of the companies don't list the CCIR number. the better ones list both). dB-A is manufacturer-friendly and should be taken with caution.

Things like the color of the noise are not taken into account so you should always listen to compare the "annoyance" of the self-noise to the human hearing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITU-R_...ting#Standards

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weig...ting_equipment
Old 22 hours ago
  #28
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ISedlacek's Avatar
I think it would be difficult to find some more affordable omnis of that high quality like LINE Audio OM1 mics

For 100 EUR you get 2/3 of the Schoeps sound ...
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