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Evolution of your recording philosophy / aesthetics
Old 7th August 2019
  #1
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Evolution of your recording philosophy / aesthetics

Hello all,

I did a bit of searching on this topic and did not see anything quite along these lines, but my apologies if anyone has already started a nice thread on the topic and I have missed it. In a nutshell, as a younger engineer heavily engaged in personal research, experimenting with techniques, listening to recordings of many eras, etc.

I would love to start a conversation about how some of you here have developed in your approach to acoustic music recording from an aesthetic and philosophical perspective. In other words:


It would be great to hear about:

1. How your techniques, preferred mic deployments, preferred patterns/types, have developed and been refined over time.

2. How your ear and taste have been influenced by your experience, listening to recordings, working closely with other engineers, etc.

3. What some of the challenges and/or areas of particular interest are for you currently as you continue to hone your craft.


If we could, let's please AVOID hearing about:

1. Specific brands/manufacturers of equipment.

2. Comparison of analog vs. digital. I realize this is a critically important area for many people, but would love to focus more on the fundamental aspects of recording which can be separated from its medium.

3. Other details which are too specific or tangential to really address topics like the earlier three "great to hear about" points.


I hope this makes sense and that there is some interest. I am keenly aware of my relative inexperience compared to many people posting here, or else I would be happy to share some thoughts of my own. If it seems like no one is inspired to begin the conversation, I will chime back in offering my own humble version of this summary at the present time.

Hope some others here are interested in a somewhat more general/philosophical/aesthetic discussion, however much that may run upstream against the more familiar gear-oriented currents

Thanks in advance for any thoughts!
Luke
Old 7th August 2019
  #2
Hi Luke! What, no gear?!!!

My recording philosophy was heavily influenced by my time at the Classical Music Library Online. Over the course almost two years, I listened to thousands of recordings in quick succession. They came from labels, ensembles, and engineers all around the world. Orchestral music, band music, choral music... new music, old music... everything from chant to Xenakis, Haydn to Mackey, string quartets to saxophone quartets. When I'd work on the discs, I'd listen to them, and I'd also take a look at the engineer. That's where I first learned that there are engineers that record full-time. (And if they can do it, I can do it!, right?)

It's also where I learned to see sound. I became increasingly sensitive to spatial distortion. Orchestras and choirs recorded with a decca tree had mono center sitting in a hole, despite being "stereo". I could see two pianos in many piano concerts, one version shown by the mains and one from the spots. Recordings with ORTF-and-flanks looked different than AB-and-flanks looked different than L/C/R across-the-front looked different than LCR-tree-and-flanks looked different than blumlein.

I began to mix my recordings so that what I saw had no spatial distortion. Instead of asking "how loud should the oboe be", I simply put it where it was supposed to be, and the mix took care of itself. This is how I think and approach recordings every day, and I'm always moving with the same direction and purpose, regardless of gear.

__________________

The ear training was not limited to classical. I also worked on the Jazz Music Library Online, where I had the chance to catalog the entire Original Jazz Classics collection (every important record and label, and then some!). I heard the evolution of competing studio techniques (and some of the first ever live club recordings). I got to hear the tracking and mixing mistakes found on some of our favorite jazz recordings: lots of bad bleed, awkward compression, and spatial distortion. I also found old recordings that I would love to sound like (Lester Koenig, Contemporary Records). I worked on the World Music Library Online too, listening to field recordings done in XY, MS, blumlein, ORTF, and more, often wondering how they got their recordings to sound so good (answer: ethnomusicologists are *not* shy when it comes to placing their microphone or recorder!). Other recordings that were inspirational were classical choral recordings released by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. I haven't gone back to listen to those in ages, but I just remember every album was beautifully sung and beautifully engineered (from several different engineers). Some were just a blumlein ribbon.

Looking forward to hearing from others!
Old 7th August 2019
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorseHorse View Post

Haydn to Mackey
I thought we weren't gonna talk about gear.

D.
Old 7th August 2019
  #4
Listening is the best way to start to form opinions on how something should sound. Also finding a good mentor helps. I worked for a college radio station when I first started doing recordings. I had access to a large classical record library and could listen to what I wanted to hear. I started sharpening up my hearing and started to listen more critically as I waded though all the recordings of the same piece by different performers and different engineers. A very "ear opening" experience to say the least. I got feedback from the people and groups I was recording and slowly built up my recording skills. More skills = (hopefully) better recordings.

Changes in equipment and ways of editing further delineated my approach to recordings. I know you did not want to talk about analog vs digital but that was a HUGE difference in how I approached recording. Not having to spend hours with a razor blade editing tapes was something I was so ready for. As to analog vs digital equipment wise...IMHO - ANALOG wins hands down.

What I see for the future is less and less people doing classical recordings for a living and more and more people DIYing everything. The cost for the DIYer is coming down and the quality of the equipment is going up. The "handwriting" is on the wall.
Old 7th August 2019
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukedamrosch View Post
1. How your techniques, preferred mic deployments, preferred patterns/types, have developed and been refined over time.

2. How your ear and taste have been influenced by your experience, listening to recordings, working closely with other engineers, etc.

3. What some of the challenges and/or areas of particular interest are for you currently as you continue to hone your craft.
i was fortunate that i was born in a western country and grew up in a liberal society and a familiy which estimated cultural values a lot! plus i was very priviledged to have not one but two mentors who were working in vastly different fields, with different genre, different gear, different taste, different funds...

many of the techniques as used in recording/mixing of amplified music appealed to me to the point that i started using them with acoustic music - and vice versa; throw in expertise from working in other fields of our profession (live sr, broadcasting, system installation, distribution, sales, manufacturing of instruments, being a musician myself ) et voilà!

getting challenged by needing to adopt to different techniques, communicating in different languages, working under harsh conditions (climatically, politically), working in different cultures, with both terrible and great gear, with thousands of musicians, some composers but also choreographers, painters, poets, lots of other engineers, under high pressure or just for the fun of it, trying to understand context plus subtext of communications and not only discuss details of gear or compositions etc. - i assume all of this (and more) helped to shape my view on things.

if there's something that i'm doing differently than many other engineers, it's the use of coincident main mics (and not to rely on mains as much), almost all directional mics for spots and going rather close and as a consequence of that, the use of eq and dynamics (often on the way in) and efx - out of preference for a specific soundfield which i cannot get with a more traditional approach.
the purpose of this other approach is to get excellent localisation and to depend much less on room acoustics (and mic placement); seems to work pretty well for surround too - that preference has been sticking with me for many years, pretty much unchanged.

gear hasn't been affecting the sound i'm trying to capture/get while mixing much nor the way i work (other than there has been more surround work lately and i'm back on desks - and that i gave up on hi res and dsd).

challenges? i'd say it's that digital audio made things much more accessible for a lot of people (which is good but i do not consider the work of all of them very good). plus more money in the pockets of all those people (not necessarily in our industry) led to an unbelieavable proliferation of high end gear which imo is often not needed and eventually adds to bringing up the costs in all the wrong areas - or simply put: i sometimes get to deal with highly armed newbies who can make technically inexperienced promoters believe that only their approach and their choice of gear will be good enough to get the music on tape (sorry: disk or get streamed or whatever)...

other than this, i believe we live in the best of times (and sorry for going off topic: these times are digital)!

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 7th August 2019 at 08:29 PM.. Reason: edited twice and typo
Old 7th August 2019
  #6
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This subject and with an emphasis on Aesthetics is a topic often discussed in German Tonmeister schools. Deciding on where one is on the Aesthetic continuum is a so important for young and mid-career engineers. Really for any engineer.

I say that the first grounding and acquaintance with differing engineering styles and differing stereo pictures comes from the mandatory 1000 hours of listening to classical recordings. I propose that the engineer start in 1950 and move onwards towards the current day. Decca, EMI, Teldec, Deutsche Grammophon, are a good start. Along with Telarc and Prof. Johnson's recordings.

How close does one like the microphones? How wide a stereo picture? Soloists close in and pasted on sounding or surrounded by a halo of appropriate ambience?

What are the desirable attributes of a totally analog chain and analog tape? How can one use the "blending effect" of recording on tape?

What obvious benefits of digital can be endorsed; what of those that are detrimental?

Does one feel uncomfortable unless they have the latest technology?

Does one feel uncomfortable unless they have all vintage equipment?

Does one feel that recording in DSD is mandatory? Why?

Tube / transistor debate !
==================================================
About 20 years ago I decided to only work for those who REQUIRED the recording. Not those who said, "it would be nice to have a recording." So to fulfill that maxim, I moved to work for record companies, music publishers, and for classical broadcasters. They have 24 hours of music they have to fill.


For myself, I always require a strong anchored main pair sound.
Formerly using cardioids, now I mostly favor omni mics.

I require always a good acoustic. Then one's work sounds like that of a genius.

My set up depends on the performers making a good performance. Appropriate performance enhancing editing is important. Sometimes it can be extensive. But NOT willing to overdo it.

Proud engineers who play me their piano records with 800 edits are given condolences. Ask me, am I impressed?

Decided to move away from the 61 microphone DG orchestral input list.
Perspective and stereo picture were too flat sounding with this set up.

Mostly real equipment instead of plug-ins. Especially reverbs and compressors.

Always have lunch or dinner with the singers. That way, all is kept light and fluffy.
(I ended up marrying from among them a few times.)

I worked hard to copy the recording psychology of my mentors. I imitate them exactly to this day. This helps to smooth the session.

YOU--you MUST have a mentor.
That means YOU.
Old 7th August 2019
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukedamrosch View Post
Hello all,

I did a bit of searching on this topic and did not see anything quite along these lines, but my apologies if anyone has already started a nice thread on the topic and I have missed it. In a nutshell, as a younger engineer heavily engaged in personal research, experimenting with techniques, listening to recordings of many eras, etc.

I would love to start a conversation about how some of you here have developed in your approach to acoustic music recording...
While you were busy pre-fencing-off the conversation, you also opened a big barn door.

@ hughshouse ?
Old 7th August 2019
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
While you were busy pre-fencing-off the conversation, you also opened a big barn door.

@ hughshouse ?
In light of Steve Remote's recent post requesting that this forum be diversified somewhat, I intentionally wanted to keep the conversation as broad as possible within this basic limitation of acoustic material. And, personally, my tastes are pretty broad so I'd be very interested to hear some thoughts on this topic from anyone recording jazz, bluegrass, or Indian classical music (for example), in addition to classical, contemporary chamber music, etc.

Many thanks to everyone who has shared some thoughts so far, and hope a few other people will contribute as well.

Old 7th August 2019
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukedamrosch View Post
In light of Steve Remote's recent post requesting that this forum be diversified somewhat, I intentionally wanted to keep the conversation as broad as possible within this basic limitation of acoustic material. And, personally, my tastes are pretty broad so I'd be very interested to hear some thoughts on this topic from anyone recording jazz, bluegrass, or Indian classical music (for example), in addition to classical, contemporary chamber music, etc.

Many thanks to everyone who has shared some thoughts so far, and hope a few other people will contribute as well.

That's why I mentioned Hugh - he's a Bluegrass/Americana guy.

And even though you'd think "Remote" would be more of a catchall, the classical guys here tend to dominate.
Old 7th August 2019
  #10
You’re welcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
And even though you'd think "Remote" would be more of a catchall, the classical guys here tend to dominate.
Old 7th August 2019
  #11
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Old Foof's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post

YOU--you MUST have a mentor.
That means YOU.

As we are all of us growing older every day, is the corollary "YOU-- you must BE a mentor." ?
Old 7th August 2019
  #12
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Yes, that's right.
Old 7th August 2019
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
That's why I mentioned Hugh - he's a Bluegrass/Americana guy.
Aha, I see -- thanks Brent. I know I've seen some of Hugh's posts, but I hadn't made that connection. Hope he has the time/inclination to chime in at some point.

Once again, I reiterate my gratitude to Hudson, Christian, Didier, and Tom for sharing their thoughts.
Old 7th August 2019
  #14
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There is no way I could ever ignore my pal Brent: so here goes;

1) The major difference between capturing acoustic music and hot amped back line performance is the fact that synergistically matching up a mic choice and it's placement with existing room reflections is job # 1 in all forms of acoustic music. Todays pop music features ground pounding bass and screaming fender guitars that require a dead rubber room and hyper card "kissing" mics.
2) Tubes and transformers have historically provided the sonic texture most of us have pursued in our recording endeavors. Jim Williams said it best: "we are in the golden age of audio gear, unfortunately the performing talent has not kept pace". I started out 50 years ago in my cousins studio that featured a U47 and U87 along with DBX and Dolby noise reduction for the 8 (and later 16) track tape machine. I replaced all of my tape gear with an HD24 20 years ago and abandoned analog processing 15 years ago. Today I rely upon the stellar tube and transformer properties of my six tube mics and world class Digigrid /Waves LV1 digital processing. I replaced the HD24XR 15 years ago with Logic (that turned out to be a $600. mistake) and shortly afterward a Studio One DAW became my every day work horse. The transparent Digico "D" pres and converters when packaged with my Flea 47 or Paluso tube mics is the magic I have spent 50 years searching for.
3) I am a singing guitar player and discovered my sweet spot for simultaneously capturing my live and studio performance with a single tube mic in card pattern about a foot away from my seated position. Head phones won't lie: if you have got it they are the best tool to help you find it!
4) My early training was with upright bass in my high school orchestra but a long and deep involvement with choral work and various theatrical stage productions along with quite a bit of radio work have been very important in developing my ear for what really works when selling a performance, be it live or recorded. There is a huge advantage in the intuitive recognition of harmony blend and shaped dynamics that experienced singer/musicians possess. I spend very little time critically listening to others work. I have got a pretty good idea of the sound I need to find with most of my projects.
Hugh

Last edited by hughshouse; 8th August 2019 at 11:34 AM..
Old 8th August 2019
  #15
I had a talk with some of my interns on this subject and they said that having someone to mentor them was crucial. Also listening to live music and then listening to how that performance was recorded was also important to them. They are all classically trained instrumental musicians and listen to a very wide range of music from Hip Hop to Classical in their daily lives. They all go to lots of concerts besides the ones they are playing in. One problem with being an instrumentalist is that they tend to focus on what they are familiar with so when they are listening to balances they tend to want to bring out their particular section/instrument because that is what they hear when they are playing. They also said that more may not equate with "better" when it comes to over miking since it puts the individual players too far in front from what they hear when going to a concert. FWIW
Old 8th August 2019
  #16
I follow the Jimi Hendrix model: "I want to see and hear everything".
Old 8th August 2019
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
I follow the Jimi Hendrix model: "I want to see and hear everything".
By that, do you mean that you want to be able to pick out every instrument and every detail?
Old 8th August 2019
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
The major difference between capturing acoustic music and hot amped back line performance is the fact that synergistically matching up a mic choice and it's placement with existing room reflections is job # 1 in all forms of acoustic music.


and why I detest all outdoor concerts. Architectural acoustics is the most wonderful thing for sound and music making.
Old 9th August 2019
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
By that, do you mean that you want to be able to pick out every instrument and every detail?
Pretty much. I'm not a fan of electronic filters no matter where that happens. Hendrix was the same way, he hated the sound of his records because they were cloudy next to the multitrack tapes. Modern releases of Hendrix outtakes shows this.
Old 9th August 2019
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by me
By that, do you mean that you want to be able to pick out every instrument and every detail?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Pretty much. I'm not a fan of electronic filters no matter where that happens. Hendrix was the same way, he hated the sound of his records because they were cloudy next to the multitrack tapes. Modern releases of Hendrix outtakes shows this.
Interesting. Far more often than not, I want the sound of a mix to be One Thing. Not many distinct things. I'm pretty sure that was how Brian Wilson and Phil Spector and The Beatles operated, too. Not that I'm equating myself with them.
Old 9th August 2019
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Pretty much. I'm not a fan of electronic filters no matter where that happens. Hendrix was the same way, he hated the sound of his records because they were cloudy next to the multitrack tapes. Modern releases of Hendrix outtakes shows this.
Did I read recently that Eddie Kramer largely used a beyerdynamic ribbon (m130 or 160) on very many, if not all, of Hendrix's guitar amp tracks ? The (hypercardioid) M160 was released in 1957

According to a 2019 Beyer press release: https://europe.beyerdynamic.com/comp...c-hall-of-fame

"Eddie Kramer, famed producer-engineer, recorded Jimi Hendrix’s vocals and amplifier with the beyerdynamic M 160 to eliminate the amount of drum and bass bleed into Hendrix’s live signal.

Additionally, record producer Andy Johns selected the M 160 to obtain John Bonham’s massive drum tone for Led Zeppelin’s hit, “When The Levee Breaks.” Jimi Hendrix and Led Zeppelin are just two of the many success stories of the beyerdynamic M 160.
Old 9th August 2019
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Did I read recently that Eddie Kramer largely used a beyerdynamic ribbon (m130 or 160) on very many, if not all, of Hendrix's guitar amp tracks ? The (hypercardioid) M160 was released in 1957

According to a 2019 Beyer press release: https://europe.beyerdynamic.com/comp...c-hall-of-fame

"Eddie Kramer, famed producer-engineer, recorded Jimi Hendrix’s vocals and amplifier with the beyerdynamic M 160 to eliminate the amount of drum and bass bleed into Hendrix’s live signal.

Additionally, record producer Andy Johns selected the M 160 to obtain John Bonham’s massive drum tone for Led Zeppelin’s hit, “When The Levee Breaks.” Jimi Hendrix and Led Zeppelin are just two of the many success stories of the beyerdynamic M 160.
I was really hoping that we would get farther than 20 posts into this thread before it derailed literally 180 degrees from what it was intended to address.

I'd be very grateful if we can continue discussing some of the ways different folks here have developed their sound, aesthetic preferences, and equipment choices (generally, not brands/models!) over the years, within the overall context of acoustic music recording.


Jimi Hendrix is one of my all-time favorite musicians, but can we please start another thread to talk about what specific Beyer mics Eddie Kramer may have used, or whether Hendrix preferred to track as directly to tape as possible.

Many thanks in advance for your consideration
Old 9th August 2019
  #23
Listen to those older recordings from that era on a great DAC and you hear pretty good cymbal definition. It's natural sounding and proportional to the level of the drums. That's my model today but now I have better mics/preamps/converters.

Now listen to modern rock/pop records. Cymbals are almost gone except for crashes, it's almost like they came off the tape heads after 500 passes like Fleetwood Mac's Rumours. Except these are digital recordings, WTF happened?
Old 9th August 2019
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
... listen to modern rock/pop records. Cymbals are almost gone except for crashes, it's almost like they came off the tape heads after 500 passes like Fleetwood Mac's Rumours. Except these are digital recordings, WTF happened?
Are you saying that drummers are playing ride cymbals a lot less (which I think is generally true)? Or that they're playing them but you're not hearing them?
Old 9th August 2019
  #25
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aesthetic .... i would say i went from trying to capture the sound of some instrument / voice in a Purest way .... make it sound like you hear it in the room ... to more of the Art of Recording / Hearing Music .... not caring if there is too much distortion if the Performance was good .... not caring if the guitar used was amartin or a yamaha as long as it is in Tune .... BUT as i say this I have move from and now back to Voices being Performance Good, not tuning after the fact .. mind you, a note or two, syllables yes if it will take something to the next level .. BUT i really do not wish to work with another singer that cannot sing in Tune .. i am not that good but i can sing in tune !!

more on Colors .. trying to hear, see, and describe music more in Colors .. maybe this comes from too many people that have no way of describing things in a conventional way and have to use colors to say .. can you make that Acoustic a littlemore Yellow for me !! and what they mean by Yellow is brighter .. or Blue for a Darker tone

i hope i am on the right track for the questions you are asking ... interesting Thread !!!

cheers john
Old 10th August 2019
  #26
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Started with 4 track tape (Tascam 244 Portasudio) and Revox/Nakamichi analog tape decks, then moved to Mackie mixer and condenser mics...then Teac DAT...ok enough gear listing already !

Recorded acoustic concerts in churches, music festivals in wine barrel cellars, exhausting 18 hour shifts mixing live PA at folk festivals, an immensely valuable internship with the national classic music broadcaster, CD sessions for singer/songwriters, solo pianists, 16 track 1" tape studio sessions, regular concert recordings for string quartets, choirs, youth orchestra, voracious reading of reference texts, Tape Op, this forum (you'd never have guessed it )

Just constantly trying to synthesise, appraise, refine, incorporate, trial new methods, work smarter not harder (ideally with the gear you have, not constantly seeking/needing new stuff), glean wisdom from mentors here and in my locale, say yes to prospective projects (even if they're out of comfort zone) take risks, run small experiments wherever possible, challenge/tweak formulas constantly, make (don't fear) mistakes....and learn from them !

Cross reference against 'old masters' recordings, improve gear wisely when finance allows. Most recent reward from initial challenge/fear: session editing (source-destination) in Reaper.....and reluctant newbie at concert and session video, the new landscape ?

Sounds like a chaotic, non-linear way to acquire and refine skills ? Yes....always was, and still is....but, hey...works for me
Old 10th August 2019
  #27
Live music should always, IMHO, be the standard to what recorded music should sound like. If you cannot record the artist to sound like the original I think you are not doing something right. It has always been my goal, when recording classical music to put the listener in the best seat in the house, where ever that is. Most people when hearing my recording say basically "it sounds like I was in the hall listening to them play". That is a compliment I take very seriously. FWIW
Old 10th August 2019
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Live music should always, IMHO, be the standard to what recorded music should sound like. If you cannot record the artist to sound like the original I think you are not doing something right. It has always been my goal, when recording classical music to put the listener in the best seat in the house, where ever that is. Most people when hearing my recording say basically "it sounds like I was in the hall listening to them play". That is a compliment I take very seriously. FWIW
That's all well and good Tom...but what I want to know is your instinctive reaction when someone tells you, with genuine enthusiasm: "Why, that sounds even better than being there at the concert !"

Would such a comment be cause for celebration, pride...that you've hit a winning home run out of the stadium....or an indication that you're going down a wrong path ?
Old 10th August 2019
  #29
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^if you record from the optimal acoustical spot in the venue, shouldn't the recording sound better than being there at the concert in the back row?

Then there's the stuff that didn't sound that great to start with. I forget exactly how Jim Williams said it, but something similar to "there's nothing quite like a pristine recording of a bad performance."
Old 10th August 2019
  #30
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
If you cannot record the artist to sound like the original I think you are not doing something right.
I can, but sometimes that's not the best option. One of the busiest and best violinists in LA -- orchestras, film scores, pop sessions, contracting, charity concerts -- is also the screechiest. She knows who the people are who can make her sound good.

She's like a lot of the movie stars we have here. Gorgeous on screen, but they don't exactly roll out of bed in the morning looking like that.
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