The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 All  This Thread  Reviews  Gear Database  Gear for sale     Latest  Trending
Fig 8s 90 degree horizontal instead of vertical
Old 1 week ago
  #1
Fig 8s 90 degree horizontal instead of vertical

Can I leave this here and ask for comments?

Does anyone use this technique for ensembles?

I can see the logic of it, but it's not a technique I've seen before or heard of anyone using. Did Blumlein play a part in this particular technique?

It looks almost like coincident hypercardiods at 90 degrees, or 120 if you wished for ensembles.

Is this a way of achieving closer stereo miking with adjustments of width, instead of having to have an ensemble within the 90 angle of the two (vertical) fig8s in Blumlein, whilst still retaining the spaciousness and imaging benefits of Blumlein crossed fig8s ?
Attached Thumbnails
Fig 8s 90 degree horizontal instead of vertical-90-degree-crossed-fig-8s.jpg  
Old 1 week ago
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Yannick's Avatar
 

That looks like a standard 90 deg config. Who cares how the mic body is oriented ? We wouldnt want the drummer to hit it wouldnt we ?
Old 1 week ago
  #3
I was thinking of the benefits of Blumlein fig8s in accurate imaging and spaciousness of sound, and utilising the room sound without resorting to room mics.

I wondered if this system with its rear facing lobes would circumnavigate the need for a 90 degree inclusive angle to avoid phase problems with the edges of an ensemble entering the rear lobe excessively.

I'm only thinking about any benefits for stereo miking an ensemble, not for spot miking like the picture.

I was also thinking about the magnitude of the universe, but I'll leave that for another thread!
Old 1 week ago
  #4
Lives for gear
 

could it be that the camera position was a bit unfortunate and this is nothing but an x/y at 90° over the drum kit? are there any other pics from a different angle/position?
Old 1 week ago
  #5
Lives for gear
 

Regardless of the plane of the Blumlein pair, the included angle is still 90 deg in that plane.
There will also be some pick-up “above” and “below” the plane but this will roll off quickly away from the plane as fig8’s have the highest directivity/side-rejection of any mic pattern.
This can be useful in reducing bleed from nearby sound sources. Also bleed from any sound sources ( and esp. those with primarily low frequencies) located in the anti-phase regions will also tend to be reduced.
(eg I was micing a choir in the chancel of a church with organ pipes on either side of the chancel in the ideal spot where I wanted to place my Soundfield mic to capture the choir. As expected the organ bleed was quite substantially reduced with a Blumlein decode vs xy cardiod decode. The organ and ambience were captured with other mics at the front of the Nave.

Last edited by Folkie; 1 week ago at 02:58 PM.. Reason: correct last word to “Nave”
Old 1 week ago
  #6
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
could it be that the camera position was a bit unfortunate and this is nothing but an x/y at 90° over the drum kit? are there any other pics from a different angle/position?
Someone mentioned this on Twitter, and this was the only image they put on there.

I did wonder if this would give the spaciousness of Blumlein crossed fig.8s whilst not having to move the mics back to have the 90 degree inclusive angle. A sort of flexible Blumlein. I don't know if Blumlein had anything to do with the idea or not, the people who put up the photo mentioned Blumlein, but I have doubts it.

Blumlein crossed fig.8s rules itself out of use with a larger ensembles because of having to pull back far enough for the inclusive 90 degree angle, I just wondered if this would give the same spaciousness. I don't think the imaging could be as good as the crossed fig.8s, but.............?
Old 1 week ago
  #7
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Poulton View Post
Someone mentioned this on Twitter, and this was the only image they put on there.

I did wonder if this would give the spaciousness of Blumlein crossed fig.8s whilst not having to move the mics back to have the 90 degree inclusive angle. A sort of flexible Blumlein. I don't know if Blumlein had anything to do with the idea or not, the people who put up the photo mentioned Blumlein, but I have doubts it.

Blumlein crossed fig.8s rules itself out of use with a larger ensembles because of having to pull back far enough for the inclusive 90 degree angle, I just wondered if this would give the same spaciousness. I don't think the imaging could be as good as the crossed fig.8s, but.............?
hard to tell things from this pic alone... - anyway, regarding blumlein (but also m/s and even x/y), my experience is that at some distance, it really doesn't matter much whether mics are positioned on top of each other, behind each other or next to each other (as seen from the source) as long as the capsules are close (enough)!

i'd be a bit more sceptical (actually, a lot!) if the orientation of the mic system is off/rotated 90° to point up/downwards unless this is done on purpose?! - i'm having a hard time to think of a scenario where this could be very useful though: if used as mains, i assume one would get much less direct sound from the source (instrument/ensemble) but lots of reflected sound from the floor and a lot of room: not really a combination i am looking for in mains...
Old 1 week ago
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Yannick's Avatar
 

I still fail to see what is so difficult about this. The two mkh800 are set on fig8. The capsules are angled at 90 degrees.

The source is on the backside of the array, which is completely symmetrical anyway. Only the polarity will be inversed.

Easily corrected at the preamp or in the DAW. Nothing strange regarding stereo angle, phase or ambience pickup is happening in this example. Just standard Blumlein.
Old 1 week ago
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Plush's Avatar
They have it positioned wrongly since the source will be out of phase with the ambience. Also that is not Blumlein because the microphones are not coincident.

It could still work for them though.
Old 1 week ago
  #10
Lives for gear
 
Yannick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
They have it positioned wrongly since the source will be out of phase with the ambience. Also that is not Blumlein because the microphones are not coincident.

It could still work for them though.
Indeed with Blumlein the source is always out of phase with the ambience. The way the two mkh800 sre in the picture is actually one of the ways to get them as close to each other as possible, short of taking of the grids.

The only thing “wrong” with the picture is that the backside of the blumlein array is pointing to the drum.

I still do not get what all this fuss is about, the pic is not THAT unclear isnt it ?
The two mics are above the kit, crossed 90 degrees, with the backsides pointing down to the drum. The pic is taken more or less from above.
Old 1 week ago
  #11
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
The two mics are above the kit, crossed 90 degrees, with the backsides pointing down to the drum. The pic is taken more or less from above.
Yes, it looks a great, spatially efficient constraint of two fig 8's in pure Blumlein. Ambience phase is always de-correlated so absolute phase is also not a worry. A nice drum overhead mic arrangement, it appears to me.
Old 1 week ago
  #12
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
(...) A nice drum overhead mic arrangement, it appears to me.
did you ever try it?! if you did, my guess is that you'd come to vastly different conclusion...
Old 1 week ago
  #13
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
did you ever try it?! if you did, my guess is that you'd come to vastly different conclusion...
Blumlein, yes, but not this arrangement specifically, no, because I have two single point Blumlein mics to use. But if I were to use two KM120's I would arrange them like the picture.

Why?
Old 1 week ago
  #14
Lives for gear
 

well, drums mostly excite the room quite a bit (although in the pic, it looks more like a jazz kit) so i can understand one might be tempted to look at the drums as at a small orchestra and picture the 'drum orchestra' with a blumlein pair - however, with the rears being out of phase and snare, toms and cymbals roughly at the same level but all positioned at a different distance, one gets a pretty hefty phase mess when using blumlein for overheads, especially when setting it up so close that the front and rear side get almost identical levels... - not all coincident mic techniques are equally well suited for picking up instruments with lots of transients! imo blumlein is the worst of them.

[believe me: i've worked for a cymbal manufacturer for many years and have recorded an incredible amount of cymbals, drums, percussion instruments - in possibly every way there is as the manufacturer once dreamed of a developing a sampler dedicated to cymbal sounds, with samples of instruments played by the most famous endorsees, recorded in some of the most famous concert halls and studios with some of the best gear available: recordings were done with an insane amount of mics and different techniques at the same time: if there was one technique which repeatedly got voted down by drummers, percussionists, other musicians, drum techs and drum rental companies, manufacturers, engineers and other folks involved into the project, it was blumlein!]


p.s. after lots of disappointing results in these recording sessions, i stopped caring for blumlein except that i continued recording it up to the completition of the sample collection - ironically, the sampler never materialized...

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 1 week ago at 12:20 AM.. Reason: p.s. added
Old 1 week ago
  #15
Lives for gear
 

I have used it quite frequently to record percussion and drums but in very large concert halls where walls are well away. I have not noticed any undesirable phase effects, in fact the sound stage is usually awesome. I don't record in small rooms.
Old 1 week ago
  #16
Lives for gear
 

powerplay/avatar, capitol, abbey road, air etc. were not really what i call 'small rooms'... - nevermind, i could imagine using blumlein on timpany but not (much) on other (tuned) percussion instruments or drums.
Old 1 week ago
  #17
Lives for gear
 

Also I am not close to the instrument like in a jazz or pop kit in the studio. Usually at least 2m or greater away. I usually like MS or blumlein on percussion because of the TOA issues with spaced pair spots.

Mind you some of my all time favourite percussion sounds are from the Anouar Brahem ECM records, and they are probably done with a spaced main pair plus spots but I am not certain.
Old 1 week ago
  #18
Lives for gear
 

m/s (or x/y) behave much differently than blumlein if used as overheads on instruments with strong transients...

...but all of them lead to emphasis cymbals, gongs, bells, triangles etc. way too much imo and is why i mostly refrained from using condensers as spots at relatively large distances on percussion instruments - or if using any, attenuate hf for better matching of the sound as captured by the mains!



@ studer58 : you recently contemplated using dynamic mics for recording of acoustic music: here's a section/situation which can greatly benefit from doing so.



p.s. sorry to the op for going off topic repeatedly: cymbals and how to mic them still fascinate me...
Old 1 week ago
  #19
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
m/s (or x/y) behave much differently than blumlein if used as overheads on instruments with strong transients...

...but all of them lead to emphasis cymbals, gongs, bells, triangles etc. way too much imo and is why i mostly refrained from using condensers as spots at relatively large distances on percussion instruments - or if using any, attenuate hf for better matching of the sound as captured by the mains!



@ studer58 : you recently contemplated using dynamic mics for recording of acoustic music: here's a section/situation which can greatly benefit from doing so.
Yes that's exactly the context I see them being useful as spots, where the mic becomes relatively deaf/insensitive to instruments other than the one being targeted...especially if it's surrounded by other loud ones. Where there's a fairly steep 'drop off zone' outside of the mic's sweet spot (like when a singer moves off axis from an SM58) That's the kind of selective discrimination I'd be looking for in a dynamic mic, in such situations....to avoid bleed from adjacent instruments.

Most condensors don't do this quite as well...does anyone know if ribbons function similarly (I'd expect they would do so very well, on their null sides, but much less so across the rear (antiphase) face ?
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump