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Best new reverbs?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1
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jnorman's Avatar
Best new reverbs?

As I have written a few times before, I consider the creation of appropriate reverb space for recordings made in less-than-ideal locations (the pianist’s living room, outdoor live performances, etc) to be perhaps the most difficult task during post processing. Perhaps bricasti and quantec hardware truly solve this problem, but most of us cannot afford gear like that, much less easily incorporate external hardware into our totally ITB process.

I have IRCAM flux verb session, reverberate, SIR II, Valhalla, and other algorithmic and convolution verb plugs (no hardware, though I have tried a few midline lex and TC units). I recently tried protoverb, which tries to emulate the quantec hardware units - it is very interesting and the results do actually sound like real spaces. sadly they all sound like bad spaces to record in...

Anyway, have any of you tried out or used or purchased any new reverbs lately, hardware or software, that have raised your game?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
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tourtelot's Avatar
New or not, I still really like Altiverb. It remains my favorite for plug-in verbs. My boss has a Bricasti and he has sorta quit toting it to live broadcasts, relying on plugins which adequately do the job. I don't think it's for sale. Yet.

D.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #3
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Plush's Avatar
You have mentioned good software reverbs and I think the key to ITB reverb is much experimentation. It is essential to create your own tweaked reverbs and store them in the system. I also like the Softube reverb.

But key to realism is moving to a hardware box that has a real signal path.
Setting up AUX sends and AUX returns on your daw is straightforward and the way to go. Some hardware reverbs also sound good with a feed from your two mix out. One varies the wet / dry ratio and captures back into the daw or to a separate recorder.

Here I like and use Lexicon PCM92 ($1800), t.c. electronic 4000, and
KING QUANTEC.
With these I get better results than those who use a Bricasti preset.

Hardware is still much better than a plug-in with no signal path. That's why a plug-in is not as good. It has no signal path.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4
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...still the same - and all hardware! i like having the choice of using vastly different reverbs: 2496, 2402, qrs, pcm96s, 300, m5000, r4000, dre-s777, orville etc.

some folks like bricasti a lot; me not so much (no surround versions on the horizon, the long promised update delayed by several years now and issues with the remote control didn't help to raise the profile either; overpriced imo)

however, when it comes to upmixing, multi channel surround for theatrical release and immersive, working with hardware isn't very attractive...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #5
This is still my favorite for what you are asking about. https://www.fabfilter.com/products/pro-r-reverb-plug-in

Very good and VERY customizable. FWIW
Old 3 weeks ago
  #6
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ronmac's Avatar
2C Audio Aether, B2 and Breeze in use here. Deeply tweakable and satisfying.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #7
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lukedamrosch's Avatar
 

Another vote for Softube's TSAR-1 reverb, recommended earlier by Plush.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #8
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I have a gazillion reverb plugins, and actually do use most of them at least situationally. Thomas mentioned Pro-R, which is one of my staples, along with the higher-end UAD verbs, Exponential Phoenix and Symphony and Acon (for surround), Eventide and even Valhalla and Avid. But the one I picked up that has really surprised me is the PSP 2445. It's been consistently finding its way onto vocal tracks in my more pop-oriented stuff. It seems to always tuck nicely into the mix. Inexpensive, too.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #9
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jnorman's Avatar
Thanks for the comments, guys.

Plush raises an excellent point regarding the need for much experimentation and tweaking to achieve something that approaches the sound of a real space, which probably deserves a thread of its own.

Sean - you and Tom both mentioned pro-r. the pro-r and Phoenix are both on my list to demo. Which do you find more effective for classical material?

Has any else tried playing with protoverb? Has anyone found anything else that tries to do ITB emulation of quantec?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
Sean - you and Tom both mentioned pro-r. the pro-r and Phoenix are both on my list to demo. Which do you find more effective for classical material?
Those two are very, very close on the 'clean and natural' scale to my ears. Phoenix may win by the thinnest of margins for overall reverb quality, but the interface of Pro-R is second to none in terms of being informative and intuitive. Both are also extremely stable and CPU-lite. You can't go wrong with either.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
Thanks for the comments, guys.

Plush raises an excellent point regarding the need for much experimentation and tweaking to achieve something that approaches the sound of a real space, which probably deserves a thread of its own.

Sean - you and Tom both mentioned pro-r. the pro-r and Phoenix are both on my list to demo. Which do you find more effective for classical material?

Has any else tried playing with protoverb? Has anyone found anything else that tries to do ITB emulation of quantec?
Unless I'm seriously mistaken, is this (see below link) not a source of free Bricasti M7 IR downloads (non-thefted, non torrent... ie legit and approved) ?

I've been using them to 'good effect' for around 10 years now.....

http://www.samplicity.com/bricasti-m...lse-responses/
Old 2 weeks ago
  #12
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jnorman's Avatar
Studer - yes, I use the samplicity bricasti IRs in my convolution verbs, along with some very nice IRs from the LX480 that I found. I also have sets from EMT 240/250, TC 6000, and others, but the M7 plates and the 480 medium hall get the most use.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #13
Old 2 weeks ago
  #14
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robert82's Avatar
I never use just one reverb, even for just one instrument. It's always several different plugins, or different settings on the same verb. Aux sends to each one, with its own EQ settings. Sometimes a little compression or saturation. And as Plush said, lots of experimenting. It's work! Sometimes frustrating work. I think good reverb is one of the hardest skills to master in audio.

As far as which ones? I love all the Relab stuff, but that's because it mirrors the old Lex sound and the TC 6000. But there are so many good ones . . . if you can't make good sounding mixes with any of the better quality reverb plugins, it's not the software's fault. Just pick one whose interface and features you like and stick with it until you know it really well.

As to Plush's assertion that for ultimate reverb quality you need hardware - I really respect Hudson's opinion. So he is one of the few who could convince me to invest in something like a PCM 92.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #15
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robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Hardware is still much better than a plug-in with no signal path. That's why a plug-in is not as good. It has no signal path.
Hudson - dumb question maybe - could you expand on the need for a "signal path"? What does this entail?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #16
I too wonder about the need for a signal path. You're taking a digital signal, running it through a D/A converter out from the DAW, in through an A/D converter in the reverb unit, through the equivalent of a plug-in on the reverb unit to give you the reverb, then back out through a D/A converter in the reverb and finally a A/D converter in the DAW.

If we believe there's some effect on the sound that we like in the analog portions of the reverb (input and output stages), OK.
I'll also believe that the processing in the digital domain is different than the processing done in a plug-in.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #17
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tourtelot's Avatar
I am clearly ignorant on the above setup and I make it my business to NEVER mention the "L-word" in a session but this out- of-the-box, when does latency become an issue? Probably not with verbs I'm thinking but how about ootb stuff like analog tape, compressors, eqs, side chains etc?

D.

Still in Audio School every day.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #18
In my experience, Doug, DAWs compensate for latency in overdubbing, so if you ship signal to "outboard" and print the return, the printed tracks will be in alignment when you render the final mix. In the rare occasions when I use outboard gear in post production, I do it this way.

I've never tried to route signal back into the DAW for a "live" rendering. I'll try some experiments to see if latency comes through the render process.

My normal process when using outboard gear is to treat the DAW as a tape machine, and mix all the tracks (and outboard signals) on a separate console.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #19
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jnorman's Avatar
I tried fabfilter pro-r against my flux verb session. Pro-r is a very nice reverb - it sounds almost exactly like verb session. Both have very good GUIs.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #20
(seventh heaven)(pro)
Old 2 weeks ago
  #21
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Plush's Avatar
RE: Need for a signal path in processing your recordings.

Often I'll send out to a reverb from the daw. I come out digital and digital in to the reverb. It would be silly to convert to analog to do it. The point is to keep it all digital.

The Lexicon or Quantec reverb receives the signal, processes it, (treats it) and returns it to the daw digitally.

One receives the benefit of the reverb's signal path and native processing engine. This is much different to a software reverb where there is no interaction with live operating electronics. Most emulations of hardware in software (plug-ins) are not accurate past a degree of, perhaps, 65-70% of the real sound.

So choose your reverb carefully and integrate it into your signal flow to receive full benefit of rich processed sound.

The plug-in, while useful, is a pale comparison to the real thing.

The plug-in may sound good on its own. But it usually does not sound as good as a real hardware reverb unit when used side-by-side.

QUANTEC is King--rare and hard to get now.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #22
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robert82's Avatar
Thanks Plush!!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
(...)rare and hard to get now.
why should that be? i know there were issues with a (american?) distributor years ago but afaik, mr. buchleitner is still in business.

on a side note: besides two newer yeardsticks, i got an old qrs here - which holds up veeery well!

and regarding plugin vs outboard: a few plugins (such as the lexicon pcm bundle, weiss' limiter/deesser or jünger's level magic) are said to be ported exactly the same (by the engineers who wrote the code) so i'm not sure even an experienced user can notice a difference in a side by side comparison (or actually a null test)...

(...although i'm wondering how some of the processes should get computed with limited resources of a daw running a busy session?!)
Old 2 weeks ago
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
why should that be? i know there were issues with a (american?) distributor years ago but afaik, mr. buchleitner is still in business.
Mr.Buchleitner unfortunately left this world:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Buchleitner

And it is true that Yardsticks are difficult to find; I was lucky to meet Mr.Roland Storch from Adebar Acoustics here on GS and his help and service was absolutely great.

Regards,
Norm
Old 2 weeks ago
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Mr.Buchleitner unfortunately left this world:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Buchleitner

And it is true that Yardsticks are difficult to find; I was lucky to meet Mr.Roland Storch from Adebar Acoustics here on GS and his help and service was absolutely great.

Regards,
Norm
oh... - so quantec's are not getting manufactured anymore? i'd appreciate any information on them (although all my qrs, xl, 2402 and 2496 have been working without issues, except for the power supply of the qrs going down about every 10 years).
Old 2 weeks ago
  #26
I have not any info are the Yardsticks still manufactured.
The Quantec website is online, but not updated since 2014.
Perhaps only distributors/dealers (if there are any) have an idea about the present status of the company.
N.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #27
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GYMusic's Avatar
Best new reverbs? It wasn't at the 1982 Montreux AES, but it was shortly after I got a chance to use the Quantec QRS. Wow! The Bricasti is another great one - I guess maybe considered a new one. I painstakingly took a long time dialing in some great memory locations with my Lexicon PCM-90. I also use multiple Roland SRV-330s that you don't hear much about. I have many more that don't get much use. One can't have too many reverbs. I have a pair of Tannoys in a client listening room that I'll send a drum signal to and mic them up. I also use a stereo FM transmitter - pick that signal up with a nice sounding Panasonic boom box - and mic the boom box with a portable Sony handheld recorder. You can get some interesting phasing or delay by walking around with the recorder. This is like having a portable reverb. The possibilities are endless.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #28
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...makes me wonder whether we'll see any new hardware devices in the future? - quantec gone, sampling reverbs from sony and yamaha abandoned, no news from lex, tc, briscasti or yamaha in years; eventide got a new platform but so far seems busy porting things from their old platform and the tegeler box doesn't do it for me - there are some interesting concepts (klangfabrik, studer vsp) but while they are brilliant at what they do, these are no efx devices in a pure sense (and out of reach for most in studer's case) but rather 'positioning devices' - guess we better stick to our old efx devices then!

(i wasn't in montreux in '82 either but fortunate enough to get to use a qrs every now and then - the price for a qrs was h-i-l-a-r-i-o-u-s at the time before prices dropped to unbelievalble levels by the end of the nineties; if i remember right, i bought mine for ca. $800!)
Old 2 weeks ago
  #29
Gear Nut
I am a big fan of Verb for realistic reverbs as you are. Try the full version it could be the answer for you.

Sometimes I mix Eventide or Melda verbs in modest doses to IRCAM's to add some spice; and don't forget the power of post processing with saturation, eq and things.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
RE: Need for a signal path in processing your recordings.

Often I'll send out to a reverb from the daw. I come out digital and digital in to the reverb. It would be silly to convert to analog to do it. The point is to keep it all digital.

The Lexicon or Quantec reverb receives the signal, processes it, (treats it) and returns it to the daw digitally.

One receives the benefit of the reverb's signal path and native processing engine. This is much different to a software reverb where there is no interaction with live operating electronics. Most emulations of hardware in software (plug-ins) are not accurate past a degree of, perhaps, 65-70% of the real sound.

So choose your reverb carefully and integrate it into your signal flow to receive full benefit of rich processed sound.

The plug-in, while useful, is a pale comparison to the real thing.

The plug-in may sound good on its own. But it usually does not sound as good as a real hardware reverb unit when used side-by-side.

QUANTEC is King--rare and hard to get now.
Gotcha. Fully agree that what gets baked in silicon can be different than running in software.
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