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Low End When the Band Is Right On Top of You
Old 1st August 2019
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philper View Post
If I brought in monitors and cranked them enough to overcome the PA or live sound while being in the position re: the stage I usually am that would be the last time I ever worked for that client.
Two things: I did not say anything about blasting it above the PA you only need to cover the the sound thats bothering you, and it was suggested because the OP is in a "control room". It may not work for you, (or the OP) in your particular situation, but in certain situations it can be a viable option.
Old 1st August 2019
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
This might or might not work in my situation, because the low end bleed from the house into the CR is a two-way street. Even at normal mixing levels, people in the stage right front seats can hear a fair amount of thump from the CR, even if they're not especially aware of it.
Understood, try the other suggestion of mixing in the live room with headphones/IEMs, the problem might only exist (or is worse) in the box/control room, especially since the main offending instruments are not even in the PA. This fact suggests vibration and not loudness is the problem, and stop vibration you need to isolate, and something tells me that a recording truck or major construction is not going to happen tomorrow.
Old 2nd August 2019
  #33
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This thread has psychological ramifications that extend well beyond the bounds of various S R, broadcasting & recording endeavors.
Over the past 50 years I have had the great opportunity to work with some of the best acoustic musicians that have ever plucked or bowed a string. (J.D.Crowe, Ricky Skaggs, Jerry Douglas, Tony Rice, Vince Gill, Jimmy Mattingly, Steve Lewis & Doc Watson to name a few) With every one of these stellar performers a clear and defined parameter of execution exists and they seldom if ever exceed their comfort lane. This is the trademark of a professional session player that can approach perfection with very little apparent effort because they have defined lanes that they stay within and believe me, they have no problem "staying at the house" rather than venturing into uncharted creative waters. I cannot imagine anyone ever asking Andres Segovia to play a rock riff on a telly: he probably could but the reality is he never would! This propensity extends well beyond the world of professional musicians into artisan craftsmen and other every day occupations. It is diametrically opposed to folks that find pushing the margin and risky situations a thrill.
The wonderful thing is there is a need for all types of occupational preferences!
Hugh
Old 2nd August 2019
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
This might or might not work in my situation, because the low end bleed from the house into the CR is a two-way street. Even at normal mixing levels, people in the stage right front seats can hear a fair amount of thump from the CR, even if they're not especially aware of it.
...the same what might work for you in your cr could apply for (parts of) the audience: in fills or front fill can cover some of the low end and rear mumble from wedges (unless everything then gets too loud)
Old 2nd August 2019
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
This thread has psychological ramifications that extend well beyond the bounds of various S R, broadcasting & recording endeavors.
Over the past 50 years I have had the great opportunity to work with some of the best acoustic musicians that have ever plucked or bowed a string. (J.D.Crowe, Ricky Skaggs, Jerry Douglas, Tony Rice, Vince Gill, Jimmy Mattingly, Steve Lewis & Doc Watson to name a few) With every one of these stellar performers a clear and defined parameter of execution exists and they seldom if ever exceed their comfort lane. This is the trademark of a professional session player that can approach perfection with very little apparent effort because they have defined lanes that they stay within and believe me, they have no problem "staying at the house" rather than venturing into uncharted creative waters. I cannot imagine anyone ever asking Andres Segovia to play a rock riff on a telly: he probably could but the reality is he never would! This propensity extends well beyond the world of professional musicians into artisan craftsmen and other every day occupations. It is diametrically opposed to folks that find pushing the margin and risky situations a thrill.
The wonderful thing is there is a need for all types of occupational preferences!
Hugh
...i'm still not getting your point/how your comment relates to this thread.
Old 2nd August 2019
  #36
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
This thread has psychological ramifications that extend well beyond the bounds of various S R, broadcasting & recording endeavors.
Over the past 50 years I have had the great opportunity to work with some of the best acoustic musicians that have ever plucked or bowed a string. (J.D.Crowe, Ricky Skaggs, Jerry Douglas, Tony Rice, Vince Gill, Jimmy Mattingly, Steve Lewis & Doc Watson to name a few) With every one of these stellar performers a clear and defined parameter of execution exists and they seldom if ever exceed their comfort lane. This is the trademark of a professional session player that can approach perfection with very little apparent effort because they have defined lanes that they stay within and believe me, they have no problem "staying at the house" rather than venturing into uncharted creative waters. I cannot imagine anyone ever asking Andres Segovia to play a rock riff on a telly: he probably could but the reality is he never would! This propensity extends well beyond the world of professional musicians into artisan craftsmen and other every day occupations. It is diametrically opposed to folks that find pushing the margin and risky situations a thrill.
The wonderful thing is there is a need for all types of occupational preferences!
Hugh
I think I get where you're coming from...the hardware should serve the performance in a thoroughly competent and yet largely invisible way, so that the illusion of the direct connection between performer and audience is maintained at all times. The moment that an audience member (or performer) becomes even slightly aware that their concert-listening experience is being mediated-by or channelled-thru a big bunch of boxes, amps, wires and mics..you've sort of broken that spell.

It's a lot easier to pull that illusion off successfully with simple unadorned country, folk, bluegrass or jazz...less so with harder hitting material. It's all about the subservience of ego, volume, hardware and "impact" ...to the underlying performance itself.

A lot of live engineers evince their insecurity about their role by turning up loud, bringing 'heavy artillery' to bear unnecessarily..."Look at me ma..I'm making these musicians look/sound great (ie I'm indispensible to the gig)".
The best engineers make themselves, and their hardware, all but disappear...the worst, they emulate a Cold War arms race.

I've always maintained the belief that the best concert sound is like sitting across the table from the players...only just a bit louder. That's a harder one to pull off in a 100,000 seat arena...but today's line arrays and other gear can indeed do it, if used expertly....in an informed way..almost with humility (if that concept's not out of place, in this setting ?)

The players you've named have all the dynamics under the control of their fingertips...and know exactly when and how to use those contrasts...little if any help is needed by the hardware to exaggerrate that..indeed it often works counter to the intention of the musicians, if misused.
Old 2nd August 2019
  #37
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Everybody have an idea of what they like and want for themselves which is great, but I would never presume to tell others what to play and how to listen the music they like. I'm also always baffled when people make comments about situations when they don't know the story/facts behind the decisions that were made. This is a tricky thing because of the amount of variables involved and hence the amount of decisions that have to be made.

When I am hired to mix a record or live sound for a band I do so in accordance with the wishes and preferences of the band. I work with a lot of different styles of music, from traditional African musicians playing only homemade instruments to guitar heavy blues rock and electronic music, and I'm fairly confident that people who pay a lot of money to see a concert with 100,000 other people on a beach, probably don't want the illusion of sitting in their living room with someone playing an acoustic guitar and singing ballads.

I too don't understand the relevance of some of the comments being made here, it hasn't even been established that the band (or some musicians) is/are too loud
Old 3rd August 2019
  #38
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Thank you studer58 for your cogent comments pursuant to my posts. Grasping the concept of selective specialization in sound reinforcement and recording endeavors should not be a difficult task. You perfectly described the importance of transparent electronic delivery of a masterful performance and the connective bond it can and will establish with an audience. My friend Cliff Miller was able to reach these lofty sonic levels for Alison Krauss tours in 20,000+ seat venues but much smaller (200 to 700 seat) venues have been my market over the past 20 years. The great advantage an old man like me has is the opportunity to do only those things that we want to do. Brent made very clear in his post #17 that he loves the challenge and thrill of broadcasting from a difficult environment.

We do not know the percentage of our forum readers that are performers developing their own S R protocol VxS people that are trying to perfect their skills to free lance engineer various types of performance. The elements that divide these interests is at the root of my comments!

Sam, if you will carefully read Brent's post #13 the loud amped bass and drums were identified as the primary elements exacerbating the node problems.
Hugh
Old 3rd August 2019
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
Sam, if you will carefully read Brent's post #13 the loud amped bass and drums were identified as the primary elements exacerbating the node problems.
Hugh
There is a bass amp but the drums? He did said neither were in the PA.
Old 3rd August 2019
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
You perfectly described the importance of transparent electronic delivery of a masterful performance and the connective bond it can and will establish with an audience.
All audiences? How important is this to the fans who go to see a band like the Prodigy for example...?

Quote:
My friend Cliff Miller was able to reach these lofty sonic levels for Alison Krauss tours in 20,000+ seat venues but much smaller (200 to 700 seat) venues have been my market over the past 20 years. The great advantage an old man like me has is the opportunity to do only those things that we want to do.
In a small venue where the backline is and performers can provide most or all the sound this is possible, but in venue with 20,000 people the PA will be the sole source of the mix and can never be transparent, the mix can sound very good, but if most or all of your sound is coming from the PA, it will be impossible to hide it.

Quote:
The great advantage an old man like me has is the opportunity to do only those things that we want to do. Brent made very clear in his post #17 that he loves the challenge and thrill of broadcasting from a difficult environment.
I think for the most part most of us have the opportunity to choose the type of work we want to do and happily we don't have the same tastes and are not stuck doing the same thing because that would be boring as hell.

Quote:
We do not know the percentage of our forum readers that are performers developing their own S R protocol VxS people that are trying to perfect their skills to free lance engineer various types of performance. The elements that divide these interests is at the root of my comments!
I'm confident that people will eventually figure out what they want to do and how they want to do it...or they'll eventually go sell insurance or become teachers etc.
Old 3rd August 2019
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
There is a bass amp but the drums? He did said neither were in the PA.
Drums are only in the PA if the drummer has an extra light touch or is doing something delicate. And electric guitars are left out more often than not. But they don't usually affect the "roar" issue.
Old 3rd August 2019
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Drums are only in the PA if the drummer has an extra light touch or is doing something delicate. And electric guitars are left out more often than not. But they don't usually affect the "roar" issue.
...which tells us that the issues of this specific cr are of structural, mechanical and acoustical nature and should get addressed on those levels, possibly with a combination of several measures before trying electrical means (all of which got nothing to do with small vs large venues, minimal vs massive use of gear or americana vs other genre!)

carpet, isolation mats to dampen vibrations, gobos, diffusors, corner traps etc. - maybe this thread should get moved to the studio building forum then...
Old 4th August 2019
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
...which tells us that the issues of this specific cr are of structural, mechanical and acoustical nature and should get addressed on those levels, possibly with a combination of several measures before trying electrical means (all of which got nothing to do with small vs large venues, minimal vs massive use of gear or americana vs other genre!)

carpet, isolation mats to dampen vibrations, gobos, diffusors, corner traps etc. - maybe this thread should get moved to the studio building forum then...
Agree, especially if the issue occurs repeatedly across several bands and concerts and isn't just confined to an endemic imbalance within one band's stage/PA sound impacting the CR experience for Brent. It sounds more generic than that, and very likely to be a constructional isolation one....which is where the studio building folks are likely to have a wealth of experience to bear on the issue.
Old 4th August 2019
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Understood, try the other suggestion of mixing in the live room with headphones/IEMs, the problem might only exist (or is worse) in the box/control room, especially since the main offending instruments are not even in the PA. This fact suggests vibration and not loudness is the problem, and stop vibration you need to isolate, and something tells me that a recording truck or major construction is not going to happen tomorrow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
...which tells us that the issues of this specific cr are of structural, mechanical and acoustical nature and should get addressed on those levels, possibly with a combination of several measures before trying electrical means (all of which got nothing to do with small vs large venues, minimal vs massive use of gear or americana vs other genre!)

carpet, isolation mats to dampen vibrations, gobos, diffusors, corner traps etc. - maybe this thread should get moved to the studio building forum then...
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Agree, especially if the issue occurs repeatedly across several bands and concerts and isn't just confined to an endemic imbalance within one band's stage/PA sound impacting the CR experience for Brent. It sounds more generic than that, and very likely to be a constructional isolation one....which is where the studio building folks are likely to have a wealth of experience to bear on the issue.
I suspected that this was the situation a few posts back, the problem however is that these situations are generally never simple or inexpensive to solve and will most likely require a lot of mass to lower the vibrating frequency of the CR.
Old 4th August 2019
  #45
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If the finger of blame is decisively descending upon the flimsy, untreated control room....the solution would appear to call for the importing of something like Dr Who's TARDIS enclosure, or a vocal booth, to be brought into (or built within) the control room. In this way you'd get a more isolated "room within a room" and perhaps some relief from the bass pressure waves ?
Old 4th August 2019
  #46
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may i ask what venue you are mxing at ??? curious if i have worked there already ... thank you
Old 4th August 2019
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
may i ask what venue you are mxing at ??? curious if i have worked there already ... thank you
I don't want to say since LA is a very small town. Also, it's kind of a miracle that the place exists in the first place. But it's a miracle that could use a tweak or two.

Last edited by Brent Hahn; 5th August 2019 at 04:28 PM..
Old 5th August 2019
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I don't want to say since LA is a very small town. Also, it's kind of a miracle that the place exists in the first place. But it's a miracle that could use a tweak or two.
no worries, fully understood .. i sent you a PM in case you would like some help .. the Dave Clarks are fantastic in this regard ... i give them to Camera Operators for Concert Shoots .. and they are either On-Stage, in the Pit, or right in front of the PA stack in some cases .. and they help take some of that low end out of the equation due to the Great Seal they make on your Head ... you could rent a Pair for a Day / Week and see how those work for you

the Noise Cancelling is some of the best i have heard and does not seem to alter the sound ...

cheers john

some info for you ...

https://store.davidclark.com/pro-aud...8570-40649g-03 (these are stylish) !!!!

these are the ones - put whatever connector you need .. if you do not need the microphone you can just swing it out of the way .. https://store.davidclark.com/pro-aud...8530-40689g-02

i was looking to see if any of the rental houses have these .. VER has them .. would just need to figure out the connectors / adapters you would need ..

https://www.ver.com/product/david-cl...set-wflex-mic/

EDIT: Location Sound does not seem to have them .. Trew Might (old Coffey sound)
Old 5th August 2019
  #49
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Love the ones with the hard hat. Do they do a goalie mask?
Old 5th August 2019
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
no worries, fully understood .. i sent you a PM in case you would like some help .. the Dave Clarks are fantastic in this regard ... i give them to Camera Operators for Concert Shoots .. and they are either On-Stage, in the Pit, or right in front of the PA stack in some cases .. and they help take some of that low end out of the equation due to the Great Seal they make on your Head ... you could rent a Pair for a Day / Week and see how those work for you

the Noise Cancelling is some of the best i have heard and does not seem to alter the sound ...

cheers john

some info for you ...

https://store.davidclark.com/pro-aud...8570-40649g-03 (these are stylish) !!!!

these are the ones - put whatever connector you need .. if you do not need the microphone you can just swing it out of the way .. https://store.davidclark.com/pro-aud...8530-40689g-02

i was looking to see if any of the rental houses have these .. VER has them .. would just need to figure out the connectors / adapters you would need ..

https://www.ver.com/product/david-cl...set-wflex-mic/

EDIT: Location Sound does not seem to have them .. Trew Might (old Coffey sound)
If you just need standard headphones (no mic and no hard hat) then just get the David Clark 10S DC
that I mentioned above. Same great isolation and great sound with very comfortable headband plus individual ear volume controls.
I can wear them for hours without discomfort
( physical or sound).
https://store.davidclark.com/10s-dc-...dset-12416g-18

Last edited by Folkie; 5th August 2019 at 06:36 PM.. Reason: add link
Old 5th August 2019
  #51
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But will they stop the room/walls/floor from vibrating...?
Old 6th August 2019
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
But will they stop the room/walls/floor from vibrating...?
The main issues are air transmission (through the walls) and the lack of trapping in the CR. There's a tiny bit of coupling through the slab as well, but the effect of it is minor.
Old 6th August 2019
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
The main issues are air transmission (through the walls) and the lack of trapping in the CR. There's a tiny bit of coupling through the slab as well, but the effect of it is minor.
Desperate times call for desperate measures: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu5piMRY1fU
Old 7th August 2019
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Love the ones with the hard hat. Do they do a goalie mask?
Goalie Mask, yes, they call it the "JASON" !!! haha

and you could just Jump up in the Air when you want check your mix so your body is not coupling to the building .. !!! but Air Pressure can be a PITA .. we did a recent Live Stream form Sound Stage in Van Nuys ... one of the Cameras was vibrating during show but was NOT during SoundCheck / Reheearsals ... we were all expecting a little vibratioin and had already dealt with the Platform / Tripods by adding that Rubber you get from Big 5 for Gym Floors ... that helps 2 of 3 cameras .. but one was literally getting Blasted by Air Pressure everytime a song had "G" note .. that Big Ugly Wave just smacked right into the camera .. brutal .. and the Yelling in the Truck while we were sussing through it ... that was Nasty !!! haha

Folkie, thx for the AUDIO only DC link .. for some reason i could not find that one ..

cheers john
Old 7th August 2019
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
... the Yelling in the Truck while we were sussing through it ...
So video was in a truck and audio wasn't? That's so wrong.
Old 7th August 2019
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
So video was in a truck and audio wasn't? That's so wrong.
no sorry for any confusion, Video and Audio for Broadcast were in 53' truck as usual ..

the Yelling was a Producer that should have kept his mouth shut but could not help himself ..
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