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Extra Foam in SM58's?
Old 30th June 2019
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
i just put a guitar pick inside a 58 to see how that works .. no better for Pop's and bad for freq !! ouch .. but what this yells me is, the side ports helping the Cardioid Pattern are getting hit by Air as well .. more than i thought really .. hence the test ..

i like Nylons as a Tech Producer - one of those guys !! haha, no really i am still an audio person at heart, so i help the sound dept more than Video sometimes ... LOL !!

Black Nylons with a black rubberband would be cool if it knocks down the Pop's .. i will need to run over to Walgreens and Buy some Choclate Bars and Nylons and see if they look at me funny !!!

serious Q: is it a thicker Nylon stocking you are getting??

.. are you putting the Thiicker Part over the head ?? i mean the Crotch .. ?? would that be weird for the Singer !! haha
Nice try!
.
Old 30th June 2019
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Brent,

Please see #8 and #10 replies above. FWIW
Tom - I tried everything suggested in the thread, and the stocking did nothing to stop a mic-eater pop. Probably helps with wind but that's not the issue.
Old 1st July 2019
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Tom - I tried everything suggested in the thread, and the stocking did nothing to stop a mic-eater pop. Probably helps with wind but that's not the issue.
I find with loud singers putting the microphone under their mouth so they are singing across the microphone and not into it and using the stocking idea works the best. As for pops it also reduces them as well. Best of luck!
Old 1st July 2019
  #34
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Hey Brent,

I'm sure you've thought about this but if nothing else has worked I'd just roll off anything that will cause an obvious pop, like below 250Hz or even higher. You may thin out the vocal a bit but the video dudes need to know there must be a compromise and even a heavy popper with a mic-popping vendetta against you won't be able to do too much damage with that setup.

Cheers!
Old 1st July 2019
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
Hey Brent,

I'm sure you've thought about this but if nothing else has worked I'd just roll off anything that will cause an obvious pop, like below 250Hz or even higher. You may thin out the vocal a bit but the video dudes need to know there must be a compromise and even a heavy popper with a mic-popping vendetta against you won't be able to do too much damage with that setup.

Cheers!
I'd question this, as he's dealing with a physical & electrical overload of the mic diaphragm...the breath 'explosion' has generated a large voltage excursion that's likely even deformed (momentarily) the shape of the diaphragm...producing a transient akin to a square wave, so no amount of radical equing further down the signal chain is going to mitigate it. Hence these initial (unsuccessful) go-to attempts at additional foam layers, stocking, and other partial physical barriers.

If the solution were as simple as engaging a pad or equing the signal as it arrives at the preamp, studios wouldn't have a need for those circular frame popper stoppers in front of vocal mics....they'd just be pushing in pad buttons, and rolling off bass frequencies ?

The damage (to the signal) is done the moment that air blast hits the mic diaphragm....there's no downstream fix for it.
Old 1st July 2019
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
I'd question this, as he's dealing with a physical & electrical overload of the mic diaphragm...the breath 'explosion' has generated a large voltage excursion that's likely even deformed (momentarily) the shape of the diaphragm...producing a transient akin to a square wave, so no amount of radical equing further down the signal chain is going to mitigate it. Hence these initial (unsuccessful) go-to attempts at additional foam layers, stocking, and other partial physical barriers.

If the solution were as simple as engaging a pad or equing the signal as it arrives at the preamp, studios wouldn't have a need for those circular frame popper stoppers in front of vocal mics....they'd just be pushing in pad buttons, and rolling off bass frequencies ?

The damage (to the signal) is done the moment that air blast hits the mic diaphragm....there's no downstream fix for it.
Quite obviously I'm not saying it will stop the plosive from actually hitting the diaphragm.. But mic pops are mostly noticable in the low frequencies and can be tamed quite a bit with a high pass / low shelf. I don't want to repeat parts of my post but I did offer this only because Brent has tried everything else and the gig sounds imminent.
Old 1st July 2019
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
... Brent has tried everything else and the gig sounds imminent.
The gigs are ongoing, actually. I didn't address the 250 HPF suggestion immediately, but I guess I should now. I appreciate the input, but that's way too high and won't really stop the pops anyway.

You can do that kind of thing in an already-recorded mix situation because the filtering is momentary. But even then, the pop will be thinned out but it'll still be there.
Old 1st July 2019
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
Quite obviously I'm not saying it will stop the plosive from actually hitting the diaphragm.. But mic pops are mostly noticable in the low frequencies and can be tamed quite a bit with a high pass / low shelf. I don't want to repeat parts of my post but I did offer this only because Brent has tried everything else and the gig sounds imminent.
Agree 100% the plosives tend to be most evident in the bass region, but the actual 'signal damage' is right across the spectrum. Radical equing or dropping in a pad simply alters the signal after the damage is done.

You really need to stop it at source. Maybe a very insensitive mic, with a massi-er diaphragm and lower output (like SM7b) would be a help in stopping it at source....but this gig sounds like it's strictly SM58 all the way. So some sort of physical filter, windsock or other barrier or deflector is the only approach here
Old 1st July 2019
  #39
I did an in-depth look at filters in the Aston Shield review and the honeycomb shape is the most efficient whilst keeping the integrity of the source (no muffling). Not sure how this helps Brent but the honeycomb mesh is quite ubiquitous e.g. the vents on computer fans; perhaps you could re-purpose it to fit inside the basket.
Old 1st July 2019
  #40
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
I did an in-depth look at filters in the Aston Shield review and the honeycomb shape is the most efficient whilst keeping the integrity of the source (no muffling). Not sure how this helps Brent but the honeycomb mesh is quite ubiquitous e.g. the vents on computer fans; perhaps you could re-purpose it to fit inside the basket.
One of the things I tried was internal meshes made from nylon window screen, eventually using three overlaid-and-superglued squares arranged in a Star-of-David pattern, the most I could pack in and still have some daylight coming through. In terms of pop-stopping it was like I had done nothing at all.

I suspect that our forefathers figured this all out a long time ago, which is why we don't see internal pop-stoppers on the market.
Old 1st July 2019
  #41
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Forgive me if this just seems too damn obvious, but...

...How much communication about this problem have you had with the singer?

I ask this because I once worked with a vocalist who was actually doing this sorta thing on purpose (for "artistic" reasons).

She said she was using it as a "percussive element".

After a bit of communication, I started to grasp what she was trying to accomplish, and we started to work out what actually "worked" and what was "just noise".

After awhile, it ceased to really be a problem.

Is it possible that every time you try to "cure the problem", your vocalist just "ups the ante"?

...Maybe I'm completely off-base here, but I just thought it might be worth asking.
.
Old 1st July 2019
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
I did an in-depth look at filters in the Aston Shield review and the honeycomb shape is the most efficient whilst keeping the integrity of the source (no muffling). Not sure how this helps Brent but the honeycomb mesh is quite ubiquitous e.g. the vents on computer fans; perhaps you could re-purpose it to fit inside the basket.
Multiple thin layers of various materials, sandwiched on top of one another, would likely be more effective than a single more dense layer.....as you're forcing the air blast to shed its energy AND change direction (think tiny zig zag motions) before it gets to the mic diaphragm. In my dimly distant physics past they called it 'constrained layer damping'....if I recall correctly?

If that removes the pops, but dulls the sound also, you can always dial in some top end at the mixer to give a sense of 'restored air'
Old 1st July 2019
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Forgive me if this just seems too damn obvious, but...

...How much communication about this problem have you had with the singer?
It's not just one, it's several.
Old 1st July 2019
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
It's not just one, it's several.
Well, it was just an idea.

...And I thought I would be remiss if I didn't mention it.

Keep us posted.
.
Old 1st July 2019
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Keep us posted.
The Arbiters of Video Taste have decided to accept black external foam filters, providing attention is paid to positioning the mic up-from-under to allow for Maximum Piehole Exposure.

Done with this one, I think.
Old 1st July 2019
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
The Arbiters of Video Taste have decided to accept black external foam filters, providing attention is paid to positioning the mic up-from-under to allow for Maximum Piehole Exposure.

Done with this one, I think.
Good enough!

(Certainly wouldn't want the AVTs to have to compromise MPE!)

...So now that we have dispensed with the purpose of this thread, I guess we can all now get down to the business of derailing it by continuing the discussion anyway (and perhaps even quibbling over things like "How many angels can dance on the head of mic sock?")
.
Old 1st July 2019
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
The Arbiters of Video Taste have decided to accept black external foam filters, providing attention is paid to positioning the mic up-from-under to allow for Maximum Piehole Exposure.

Done with this one, I think.
if you want to send me the names of these fools .. offline of course .. i would be happy to send them a 4th of July Gift !!! a box that says Video Friendly Foam Windscreens .. but really it is a Jack in the Box (not the food) that gives them a good scare !!!

i do not like to hear what you have said about video folks not being sensitive to the Audio Needs ..

TV without sound is Silent Movies .. Sound without picture is RADIO !!! much nicer ..

happy to hear they can at least get by with the Foam .. might try using a Black Rubberband to tighten the foam up at the base of the Ball .. might make t a little cleaner on camera - as pretty as you can make it .. too bad they did not have something like 87 heads, there are more choices of better looking windscreens .. i like this one myself ..
Attached Thumbnails
Extra Foam in SM58's?-screen-shot-2019-06-30-9.11.47-am.png  
Old 1st July 2019
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Tom - I tried everything suggested in the thread, and the stocking did nothing to stop a mic-eater pop. Probably helps with wind but that's not the issue.

There's some interesting information here. Scroll down to page 32 or 33.:

https://www.americanradiohistory.com...DB-1980-12.pdf

Finding objective information on this subject is challenging. I remember reading the article years ago, and it does have some worthwhile information. Some are highlighted below, and confirmed by my own experience:

"P" pops emanate in front of the mouth, so moving the microphone from directly in front helps. They are almost entirely eliminated if you hold the mic to the side of your mouth (but still point it at the mouth).

"T" pops, OTOH, go in a downward direction from the mouth, so placing the mic below is actually worse.

The pops are at their worst with a working distance of about 3 inches. Closer, and the turbulence doesn't get a chance to get going (and the desired audio is also that much louder). That's why pops are rarely a problem when somebody is full-on singing into the mic. It's almost always a problem when they're talking between songs and back off the mic a bit.

After years of doing remote radio broadcasts, I eventually learned that if I wanted to avoid popping, a big foam windsock on top of an SM58 was the way to go. Fortunately, nobody cares too much what it looks like in radio. They do complain when they hear loud plosives.

I realize Brent might not be able to engage in behaviour modification (better mic technique) in his situation, but offer these suggestions in case he does get some cooperative talent some time. BTW, when I moved to radio from television, some wag described radio as "television for the blind". If you think about it for a second, that's quite an apt description.

The attached image is from one of my most "remote" remotes. 200 miles off-shore, with a satellite phone/data hookup to get program back and forth to the main studios. I was travelling light, with just a Sound Devices preamp as an audio console.

Geoff
Attached Thumbnails
Extra Foam in SM58's?-img_0442.jpg  
Old 2nd July 2019
  #49
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A final thought, as this thread might be referenced in years to come by those facing a similar situation, would be to substitute the cardioid SM58 ( which certainly isn't going to happen in Brent's case) with an Omni news gathering type of dynamic mic.

The EV RE50 N/D comes to mind. Omnis dynamics are less prone to popping and proximity bass tip-up, although they're typically held at waist to chest height (think typical on the scene 1980's TV outside news reporter)

If this approach does work, it could justify hunting down a used RE50 and keeping it in the mic locker for this sort of scenario ? There are probably other dynamic omnis which could work just as well.

However, a big downside of using an Omni in that situation is that it would be more susceptible to monitor wedge feedback than an ol'58.....so, there's no free lunch
Old 2nd July 2019
  #50
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Exclamation

Unfortunately most singers nowadays seem not to understand how a mic. works and to use it properly.

I have found that the best position for a vocal mic. is slightly to the side of the mouth.

The "jet stream" from the mouth (with all the plosives) misses the mic. completely - so no popping at all.

The mic. can still be close to the mouth to get the desired proximity effect sound.

Also - the bonus - the audience can see the performer's face and not just a pair of eyes and a nose above a microphone and this facilitates a much better rapport with the audience.
Old 2nd July 2019
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Agree 100% the plosives tend to be most evident in the bass region, but the actual 'signal damage' is right across the spectrum. Radical equing or dropping in a pad simply alters the signal after the damage is done.

You really need to stop it at source.
Definitely. Just to be clear to any beginners reading the thread, I didn't mean that using a HPF would actually stop or completely eliminate the actual pop, EQ is quite clearly never going to do that, but was intended more as a last ditch attempt to minimize the popping in a live environment for what looked like an upcoming gig where none of the mechanical fixes seemed to work at all. It is certainly not the first thing to try!
Cheers
Old 2nd July 2019
  #52
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Even more finally Brent.....and this will no doubt draw a few giggles and smirks (both here, and if you happen to be seen applying it before showtime at the gig....)

A recognised method of waterproofing a mic destined to be used at sea or in rivers as a hydrophone, is to protect it with a condom, applied 'in the conventional manner'

For stage use, you be advised to trim it back somewhat with scissors....and then pop the foam windscreen on top....to hide it from view.

What else can I say....except "do try this at home first folks" If it works, it's a low cost, practically invisible fix (as long as the windscreen stays on !) I'm almost certain it will prevent breath popping....and other unwanted bacterial transmissions as well, no doubt. I'm predicting it will curtail the treble somewhat, so you maybe have to boost the highs at the mixer. If it seems to reduce the popping, but not sufficiently.....add another layer.

Please relay your findings back to class at your earliest convenience

** lubricant optional....
Old 2nd July 2019
  #53
I worked with a really GREAT singer for some acoustic music CDs I was recording. She sounded great and was always on pitch. She was also frail and wanted to use a hand held vocal microphone. I got her a C-1000 microphone https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...SAAEgLKwPD_BwE . Then I put the microphone inside an unused paint roller stuffed with foam rubber (she said the mic was too hard to hold) I found this windscreen https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...SABEgJD4vD_BwE and put it on the top of the microphone in the paint roller. It worked like a charm and she went on to use it on stage when she sang live. (she dyed the paint roller jet black with some hair dye) Sometimes you have to do some strange things help musicians do what they do best. FWIW
Old 2nd July 2019
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Even more finally Brent.....and this will no doubt draw a few giggles and smirks (both here, and if you happen to be seen applying it before showtime at the gig....)

A recognised method of waterproofing a mic destined to be used at sea or in rivers as a hydrophone, is to protect it with a condom, applied 'in the conventional manner'

For stage use, you be advised to trim it back somewhat with scissors....and then pop the foam windscreen on top....to hide it from view.

What else can I say....except "do try this at home first folks" If it works, it's a low cost, practically invisible fix (as long as the windscreen stays on !) I'm almost certain it will prevent breath popping....and other unwanted bacterial transmissions as well, no doubt. I'm predicting it will curtail the treble somewhat, so you maybe have to boost the highs at the mixer. If it seems to reduce the popping, but not sufficiently.....add another layer.

Please relay your findings back to class at your earliest convenience

** lubricant optional....
The video guys will LOVE this.
Old 2nd July 2019
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirjuxtable View Post
The video guys will LOVE this.
Old 2nd July 2019
  #56
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Even more finally Brent.....and this will no doubt draw a few giggles and smirks (both here, and if you happen to be seen applying it before showtime at the gig....)

A recognised method of waterproofing a mic destined to be used at sea or in rivers as a hydrophone, is to protect it with a condom, applied 'in the conventional manner'

For stage use, you be advised to trim it back somewhat with scissors....and then pop the foam windscreen on top....to hide it from view.

What else can I say....except "do try this at home first folks" If it works, it's a low cost, practically invisible fix (as long as the windscreen stays on !) I'm almost certain it will prevent breath popping....and other unwanted bacterial transmissions as well, no doubt. I'm predicting it will curtail the treble somewhat, so you maybe have to boost the highs at the mixer. If it seems to reduce the popping, but not sufficiently.....add another layer.

Please relay your findings back to class at your earliest convenience

** lubricant optional....
We did concert sound for a punk rock show with our speakers covered in visqueen and our microphones all had condoms on them. The group said the were going to be squirting water and did not want to damage our equipment. Instead of water they brought smoke bombs and fireworks. Not cool. The smoke bombs set off the venue's smoke detectors and about 5 minutes later about 12 fireman showed up in full turn out gear. They were NOT pleased and shut the show down. The punk rock group did not even get a chance to play one whole song. The group tossed a whole string of M-80s on my monitor mixer's lap and if he had not stood up he would have been severely injured.
We tried out the mic before hand and they sounded BAD. Also do not use lube it gets into the screen of the microphone. Use un-lubricated condoms ONLY! FWIW
Old 5th July 2019
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
i tried that but two things, the Ribs on the Condom just made everyone Giggle, and the Lube well, can you say Drop the Mic !!!

and there was this Awesome sound that built up and up, and then i needed a Cigarette and a Nap !! what happened !!!
Old 5th July 2019
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
i tried that but two things, the Ribs on the Condom just made everyone Giggle, and the Lube well, can you say Drop the Mic !!!

and there was this Awesome sound that built up and up, and then i needed a Cigarette and a Nap !! what happened !!!
Well, I did recommend to trim it to just cover the mic basket/grille....and then put a foam windsock on top in conventional fashion. This will hide it from any visual identification.....while the foam wind cover remains on the mic !
Old 5th July 2019
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
the Ribs on the Condom just made everyone Giggle
I thought that was about all they were good for anyway...

...I mean, if they really did "what it says on the tin", I'd put 'em on inside out!
.
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