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My Last Symphony Recording? Condenser Microphones
Old 1 week ago
  #1
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JCBigler's Avatar
My Last Symphony Recording?

This weekend, I am recording the Tulsa Symphony Orchestra for their final classics concert of the season as they perform:

Strauss, Till Eulenspiegels lustige Streiche, Op. 28

Piazolla, Serie Del Angel (bassoon solo)

Rachmaninoff, Symphonic Dances

I've recorded every classics concert for this symphony for the last five years. And I have been working with them since September 2008 when I started as the acting house audio tech, and then the full time house audio tech in December of 2008 for the Tulsa Performing Arts Center, until my departure last July. TSO is the only user group that I have maintained as a client after leaving the Tulsa PAC. They were always my favorite group to work with and I've mixed their pops concerts, live movie score concerts, holiday concerts, and "Symphony in the Park" for them. And this week marks the 30th concert recording I have done for the TSO, all of which have been broadcast on the local public radio station here in Tulsa.

Today during load in, I started thinking, "what if this is my last recording for Tulsa Symphony? What if this is the last show I ever work for them?" Of course it made me sad. And while I don't intend to drop them as a client; I have been interviewing for jobs all over the country. Depending on the job I do get, it just may not be doable to come back to keep recording. I just don't know what the future will hold for me and the Tulsa Symphony.

The Setup:

Main array of 2 Neumann TLM170s in NOS, with a pair of Earthworks M23 omnis as a spaced AB pair
2 Neumann KM184s as L-R flanks
2 Neumann KM184s on the woodwinds
1 Line Audio CM3 over the Tympani/Piano/Harp
1 Line Audio CM3 over the brass
2 Neumann KM184s in ORTF hung from the Lighting Cove over the house
2 Line Audio OM1s hung 9 feet off center as a spaced pair from the same Lighting Cove
Audio-Technica AT4050 for the bassoon soloist spot mic.

I'm taking a stereo line level feed from the house console for the main house mics (the KM184s in ORTF) and the two wireless handhelds for the curtain speech and the conductor's speech.

I'm recording 16 channels total at 24/96k. Recording to my Lenovo P50 laptop with Protools Ultimate and HD Native with my Focusrite Red 8Pre and True Systems Precision 8. I'm feeding 13 mics into the house console from the line outputs from the 8Pre to the house Yamaha CL5 and RIO3224D, which then feeds a secondary Protools HDX system with the house Mac Pro with Protools Ultimate.

The House Mac Pro is running a Focusrite Red 4 Pre and HD32R and feeding Protools via Dante from the CL5 and RIO. The house HDX system is only recording at 48k, because the CL5 only runs at 48k. But it's a back up recording anyway. I built this system two years ago while I was still the house audio tech to run Protools and QLab. It took me almost 5 years to get the funding for it. It hasn't been used since I left.

The line level feeds from my Red 8Pre are also being mixed live to CD on the CL5.
Attached Thumbnails
My Last Symphony Recording?-img_20190412_163944276.jpg   My Last Symphony Recording?-img_20190412_163929857.jpg   My Last Symphony Recording?-img_20190412_195600568.jpg   My Last Symphony Recording?-img_20190412_193453208.jpg   My Last Symphony Recording?-img_20190412_201347118.jpg  

My Last Symphony Recording?-img_20190412_193417661.jpg   My Last Symphony Recording?-img_20190412_194808088.jpg  
Old 6 days ago
  #2
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may i ask about your motivation to apply for a new job?

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 6 days ago at 06:42 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 6 days ago
  #3
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
That is an interesting fly-bar that holds the TLM170 and the Earthworks mics. It looks like the bar is hanging from two multi-pair mic cables connected by what I assume are two 5-pin Neutriks - am I close? It makes for a very clean-looking rig. Does it belong to you or is it part of the house equipment?
Old 6 days ago
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
That is an interesting fly-bar that holds the TLM170 and the Earthworks mics. It looks like the bar is hanging from two multi-pair mic cables connected by what I assume are two 5-pin Neutriks - am I close? It makes for a very clean-looking rig. Does it belong to you or is it part of the house equipment?
Looks like there’s filament attached too
Old 6 days ago
  #5
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by emenelton View Post
Looks like there’s filament attached too
Given the angle of the filament, I assume its for 'pull back' positioning? The straight, taut mic cables might indicate that they are carrying the weight...

JC: sorry if we are getting a bit off-topic here.
Old 6 days ago
  #6
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JC's post #23 here: What budget mic is most like the TLM170? expands on it a little....

Whereas he's leery of the mics falling out of the spider or compression/friction clamps (hence his use of the stand mounts here)...I'd be more wary of the bar being supported solely by the thumb locking mechanisms that holds the two 5 pin (?) XLR male/female pairs together !

Ye Gods JC....not even a cursory wrap of gaffa around each mating pair of the XLR's, or whatever those components are with red and white tape on each end ? Either you or the venue are not afraid of living dangerously ....what's the combined weight of the 2 Neumann 170's and Earthworks....and who or what might be directly beneath them in the auditorium ?
Old 6 days ago
  #7
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
... Whereas he's leery of the mics falling out of the spider or compression/friction clamps (hence his use of the stand mounts here)...I'd be more wary of the bar being supported solely by the thumb locking mechanisms that holds the two 5 pin (?) XLR male/female pairs together ! ...
Before jumping to conclusions, maybe that fly bar belongs to the venue and has been blessed by their rigger and the venue accepts liability? I have seen permanent fly bars that rely on the mic cables as load bearing elements, though not typically through Neutrik connectors. I haven't found any data on the Neutrik site about the pull-apart strength of its XLR connectors, but when have you ever had two properly-latched genuine Neutrik XLRs accidentally pull apart? Still I prefer the mic cables double tie-wrapped to the bar if they are carrying load...and aircraft wire or braided polyester rope is better still.
Old 6 days ago
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
Given the angle of the filament, I assume its for 'pull back' positioning? The straight, taut mic cables might indicate that they are carrying the weight...

JC: sorry if we are getting a bit off-topic here.
I think commenting on one of the pictures is still on topic

We're comporting ourselves in a civilized respectful manner towards the OP's content if not the original subject.

Anyways with that said, if you would prefer not to elaborate; would it concern you suspending the bar in such a manner?

edit: I've got to speed up my thumbs!!
Old 6 days ago
  #9
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Plush's Avatar
RE: Your looking for other jobs.

Each of us knows or realizes one day when you have done it with a certain arts organization. Absent the group going out of business, why would one leave?

Because:

1.You're bored with the job and are not challenged any more. You feel the tug of wanting to record a better group or of wanting to implement new techniques.

2. You have outgrown the people involved in the group.

3. The venue is not a good acoustic, so all of your labors don't turn out as well as they could in a better hall.

4. Management described to you how they need to economize and they have decided to do it on the back of your work. Recently I was offered to continue recording a good orchestra for 1/2 the money I had been doing it for for more than 10 years. I quit instead.

5. Tired of scrounging work in a non classical music culture center.

6. Town has become boring. (your own fault)

Some or a combination of the above might one day cause you to abandon ship.
Old 6 days ago
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
I haven't found any data on the Neutrik site about the pull-apart strength of its XLR connectors, but when have you ever had two properly-latched genuine Neutrik XLRs accidentally pull apart? Still I prefer the mic cables double tie-wrapped to the bar if they are carrying load...and aircraft wire or braided polyester rope is better still.
I've never had 2 properly latched genuine Neutriks accidentally pull apart....but more times than I like to recall have I had improperly latched genuine Neutriks do just that ! Fortunately in less than mission-critical and life endangering contexts...like a cello or woodwind spot mic, typically !

There's the crux of the biscuit....a visual check is never good enough for verification, a good hard pull is somewhat better and more reassuring, gaffa wrapped around the bodies of both XLRs (but NOT over the thumb-latches themselves, thereby actuating the release mechanism ) is yet better still, and so on.

There are layers of certainty and precautions which can be taken...and this one on first viewing looks tissue thin. No amount of "rigger blessings" or venue liability can conceal that....
Old 6 days ago
  #11
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JCBigler's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
may i ask about you motivation to apply for a new job?
Mostly the desire to work full time and support myself and my family. Oklahoma is a tiny market when it comes to the arts and just doesn’t have the ability to support full time audio work outside of a couple of house jobs that work for the venues. And the fact that the tax and insurance burden for freelance work is pretty brutal.
Old 6 days ago
  #12
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JCBigler's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
That is an interesting fly-bar that holds the TLM170 and the Earthworks mics. It looks like the bar is hanging from two multi-pair mic cables connected by what I assume are two 5-pin Neutriks - am I close? It makes for a very clean-looking rig. Does it belong to you or is it part of the house equipment?
It’s a 24” wide 3/8” aluminum hex rod with Sabra-Som mic mounts. The filament is for the pull back (downstage).

And yes, 2 5-pin Neutrik XLRs wired for two channels each, with the break in and break outs on each end. The break ins and break out are color coded, black to the inner mic, white for the outer mic. The cables are then also color coded blue for left, red for right. With the break in and out cables color coded accordingly so that they are fast and easy to identify.
Old 6 days ago
  #13
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JCBigler's Avatar
I’ve gone back and forth on wrapping the connectors with gaff tape or not. The problem I have with that is that when you wrap the connectors with gaff tape is that it can depress the locking button on the female connector, which will cause the connectors to come apart. And if you don’t wrap the connectors fully, then you aren’t getting complete bite all the way around the connector, which limits the ability of the tape to keep them together. The break-in cables are zip tied to the stereo bar.

I’ve gone over this set up with the venue carpenter and TD and they both feel comfortable with it. Once they are hung, they don’t move and aren’t nearly low enough for anyone not on a 10 foot ladder to bump into. But, I may go back and zip tie the 5-pin to the bar itself, so the connector isn’t carrying the weight.

This is my old set up which I used to use, which had only a regular 3 pin cable zip tied to the stereo bar.

Old 6 days ago
  #14
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
It’s a 24” wide 3/8” aluminum hex rod with Sabra-Som mic mounts. The filament is for the pull back (downstage).

And yes, 2 5-pin Neutrik XLRs wired for two channels each, with the break in and break outs on each end. The break ins and break out are color coded, black to the inner mic, white for the outer mic. The cables are then also color coded blue for left, red for right. With the break in and out cables color coded accordingly so that they are fast and easy to identify.
The array does look really nice

I did use your NOS and AB exactly like you suggested last week, so it was reaffirming to see your picture
Old 6 days ago
  #15
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JCBigler's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by emenelton View Post
The array does look really nice

I did use your NOS and AB exactly like you suggested last week, so it was reaffirming to see your picture
It’s a set up that I stole—err...learned from Christian (@NorseHorse) when I was working for him in Kansas City last fall, and then modified for use with the TLM170s.
Old 6 days ago
  #16
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The thing about being self-employed is it is all on you to get the work, do the work, get paid, pay the taxes, pay the bills, and have enough left over to make a decent living. Moving elsewhere means you either have to have a paid job or you start building a client base from zero. At least where you are, you have a client base. Maybe there are some other services you could do that would enhance your revenues without adding a lot of costs? Maybe some others could comment on what they do to add revenue that you might also be able to do in Tulsa?
Old 6 days ago
  #17
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JCBigler's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
RE: Your looking for other jobs.

Each of us knows or realizes one day when you have done it with a certain arts organization. Absent the group going out of business, why would one leave?

Because:

1.You're bored with the job and are not challenged any more. You feel the tug of wanting to record a better group or of wanting to implement new techniques.
There is certainly the desire to work with other groups. Not that I dislike working with TSO, but I do need some new challenges now.

2. You have outgrown the people involved in the group.
Not really. I like the people here and they seem to like me.

3. The venue is not a good acoustic, so all of your labors don't turn out as well as they could in a better hall.
The hall here is certainly not the best, but it’s not terrible either. Once upon a time, about 3 years before I left, I submitted a proposal which I spent a solid 3 years researching and developing, for a complete renovation of the PA system and acoustic treatments for this hall. It was $4.5 million. My management just laughed at me. And said “okay, sure thing”.

4. Management described to you how they need to economize and they have decided to do it on the back of your work. Recently I was offered to continue recording a good orchestra for 1/2 the money I had been doing it for for more than 10 years. I quit instead.
I haven’t had any money problems with the Symphony here, but the 5 or 6 lclassical concert recordings, plus a pops show and a movie score show per year aren’t enough to keep me fed full time.

5. Tired of scrounging work in a non classical music culture center.
This is the main reason for looking for other work. Tulsa, Oklahoma is a tiny market. I’m the big fish when it comes to theatre and classical music audio engineering. The problem with being a big fish in a tiny pond is that you end up starving eventually.

6. Town has become boring. (your own fault)
I’m ok with boring. I don’t like working in night clubs and bars. In fact, over the last couple of months, I have been mixing some shows for a small jazz club (which I consulted on and did the audio system design for), and it’s just sort of annoying working in a club atmosphere. I much prefer theatres and concert halls.

Some or a combination of the above might one day cause you to abandon ship.
Like I said, nothing is certain at this point. There is one job possibility here in Oklahoma which would probably allow me to keep recording the TSO. But all the rest of the jobs I have been applying for and interviewing for are out of state.
Old 6 days ago
  #18
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fred2bern's Avatar
Unlike the title of your post, I hope for you it won't be your last symphony recording... but at least the last one with this orchestra in this room if you want to move.
Old 6 days ago
  #19
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jwh1192's Avatar
where are you headed to look for work .. did i miss that ??
Old 5 days ago
  #20
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JCBigler's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwh1192 View Post
where are you headed to look for work .. did i miss that ??
I don't know. I'm applying and interviewing for jobs all over the country: Indiana, Chicago, Florida, Arkansas, Alabama, San Francisco, Boston. All places that have a substantially higher cost of living than Oklahoma, and many of which put strict limitations on some of my other recreational interests....

I'd like to stay in Oklahoma, and there is one job prospect here, but they haven't made any offers yet.

If I stay in Oklahoma and try to freelance full time, driving and flying to other parts of the country, I'm going to have to get much better at all the self employment stuff.
Old 5 days ago
  #21
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JCBigler's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by fred2bern View Post
Unlike the title of your post, I hope for you it won't be your last symphony recording... but at least the last one with this orchestra in this room if you want to move.
This was a bitter sweet show tonight.

The current Executive Director is retiring after leading this symphony for the last 11 years. He was one of my professors and wind ensembles conductors in college. They introduced the newly hired Executive Director who will be starting in July. I got to meet him and talk with him for a few minutes at the luncheon after the rehearsal today. Seems like a nice guy and seemed like he was interested in the recording set up and what I do with it after the recording.

But, as I packed up my gear during load out, I looked around and wondered if I would actually be back in 5 months to record the next concert. I just didn't know. And may not for several more months yet.

I DID, however, have a nice conversation before the concert with the saxophone player for the Rachmaninoff, who is the classical saxophone teacher at the college here in Oklahoma where my job prospect is, and we talked saxophone and recording some. Turns out he studied with some of the same people that my saxophone teacher in college studied with, albeit many years later, since my teacher retired in 2001 after she spent many years teaching at the college level. And he co-hosts a saxophone camp every summer with another college here in Oklahoma, so maybe he'll need some recording work.
Old 5 days ago
  #22
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I may have breezed past this one in your earlier posts....but, what happens to your recordings of the orchestra after you've edited and mastered them: do they get widely circulated amongst the players, conductor, Exec Dir and upper level admin...do they get SoundClouded or YouTubed....become CD's....or, get briefly analyzed by the hypercritical types (and never spoken of again) ?

The reason I ask is because there's a good chance that either your recordings alone, or the manner and traditions in which they are received/talked about (or not)...and by whom within the orchestra circles... may hold the key to whether you continue to record with them.

So the historical regard and treatment of your recordings by those who have the biggest stake in what they say about the orchestra may determine what happens from here on in ?

If you have clues about the "typical reception and digestion chain"of your recordings for them to date...that might become a pivotal predictor of your future with them from now onwards ! Sorry...lots of repetition of the same dynamic in the last 3 paragraphs, but I'm sure you get the thrust of my question !

To be on the safe side, run tonight's recording through the most flattering "Nicerizer" you have in your plug-in suite....just in case brutal accuracy -to-source is not what's appreciated by the 'orchestral recordings reception club' ?
Old 5 days ago
  #23
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elpillo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
I’ve gone back and forth on wrapping the connectors with gaff tape or not. The problem I have with that is that when you wrap the connectors with gaff tape is that it can depress the locking button on the female connector, which will cause the connectors to come apart. And if you don’t wrap the connectors fully, then you aren’t getting complete bite all the way around the connector, which limits the ability of the tape to keep them together. The break-in cables are zip tied to the stereo bar.

I’ve gone over this set up with the venue carpenter and TD and they both feel comfortable with it. Once they are hung, they don’t move and aren’t nearly low enough for anyone not on a 10 foot ladder to bump into. But, I may go back and zip tie the 5-pin to the bar itself, so the connector isn’t carrying the weight.

This is my old set up which I used to use, which had only a regular 3 pin cable zip tied to the stereo bar.

Hi, there!
First of all... Hope it won't be your last recording with this orchestra!!

Now, changing subjects. How do you like the TLM170's as main pair? Is there any way that you could share an audio sample of just the 170's as mains? Can't recall listening to them as mains for orchestra, only for small ensambles.

Thank you and best of luck with the job search!
Old 5 days ago
  #24
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JCBigler's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
I may have breezed past this one in your earlier posts....but, what happens to your recordings of the orchestra after you've edited and mastered them: do they get widely circulated amongst the players, conductor, Exec Dir and upper level admin...do they get SoundClouded or YouTubed....become CD's....or, get briefly analyzed by the hypercritical types (and never spoken of again) ?
I deliver the final masters to the orchestra as a set of CDs, and also a set of CDs to the local NPR radio station. The radio station usually broadcasts the concert recording on the weekend before the next concert...so my previous recording was broadcast on Sunday April 7th, before this concert which was on Saturday the 13th. I'm not sure yet when this concert will be broadcast. Sometimes the radio station broadcasts it was the end of the season, sometimes they broadcast in September before the opening concert of the next season.

The recordings themselves are mostly kept in the Symphony archives, as a polished record of their performances. They occasionally get listened to by members of the orchestra, particularly any of the soloists. They don't get distributed or put online on Soundcloud or Youtube or anything like that.
Old 5 days ago
  #25
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JCBigler's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by elpillo View Post
Hi, there!
First of all... Hope it won't be your last recording with this orchestra!!

Now, changing subjects. How do you like the TLM170's as main pair? Is there any way that you could share an audio sample of just the 170's as mains? Can't recall listening to them as mains for orchestra, only for small ensambles.

Thank you and best of luck with the job search!
I like the sound of the TLM170s as a main pair. I think they are clear and transparent with a good full, even sound. Of course, the sound of the final mastered recording is a combination of the mains, the main omnis, the flanks, the house mics, the spot mics up stage and some gentle EQ and processing in post. That's why we call it "mixing" right?

But I'm one of those guys who likes LDCs as the main pair. I think they have a bit more body and fullness to the sound than SDCs, which serve well as the starting point for the base of the core sound of the ensemble.

This is a professional, union orchestra, and unfortunately, my contract with them doesn't allow me to post samples online for wider access to the public. It will be broadcast on the KWTU Radio station out of Tulsa, Oklahoma (which is the classical station run by KWGS out of the University of Tulsa). And they also have a live stream of their broadcasts online. I'm not sure yet when this one will broadcast, but I can try to update this thread when I find out in case any of you guys want to listen to it.
Old 5 days ago
  #26
Just imagine that to live in a place like CA, you will need to make at least $100,000 a year to own a starter home. There are no, 0, nada, full time jobs for classical engineers. And the part time jobs that do pop up offer about $30/hr if you are lucky. There are also not enough clients to support a self employment gig, and there will already be established competition with experience and equipment that matches or exceeds your own resources, not to mention they already work for all your potential clients. You will have to take a day job and work 16 hour days with no break just to survive.

The weather is nice though.
Old 5 days ago
  #27
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JCBigler's Avatar
I've worked plenty of 16 hours days. That's the big reason I left my house job last summer. It wasn't unusual for us to work multiple 70 and 80 hour long weeks in a row. And the wage was just not worth the extra effort. I was killing myself and not making the money to justify it.

If I do end up having to leave the area, I'm not sure who they will get to do their recording. The other engineers in town aren't really experience in classical music. They're regular studio guys making rock, country and "Red Dirt" music. And I really do believe that I have a leg up on the other recording engineers because I am a classically trained musician and not just self a taught guitar player. I understand the literature, the ensemble balance, and can speak their language and I have played with bands and orchestras. And the previous recording engineer for the Symphony passed away last summer.

Hopefully things will work out and I'll be able to continue recording for them.
Old 5 days ago
  #28
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jwh1192's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
I've worked plenty of 16 hours days. That's the big reason I left my house job last summer. It wasn't unusual for us to work multiple 70 and 80 hour long weeks in a row. And the wage was just not worth the extra effort. I was killing myself and not making the money to justify it.

If I do end up having to leave the area, I'm not sure who they will get to do their recording. The other engineers in town aren't really experience in classical music. They're regular studio guys making rock, country and "Red Dirt" music. And I really do believe that I have a leg up on the other recording engineers because I am a classically trained musician and not just self a taught guitar player. I understand the literature, the ensemble balance, and can speak their language and I have played with bands and orchestras. And the previous recording engineer for the Symphony passed away last summer.

Hopefully things will work out and I'll be able to continue recording for them.
you can always travel back for that GiG !!! and the 100k is not a bad estimate for living in the southland .. funny after 30 years here, your gig sounds pretty good !! haha ..
Old 5 days ago
  #29
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elpillo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
I like the sound of the TLM170s as a main pair. I think they are clear and transparent with a good full, even sound. Of course, the sound of the final mastered recording is a combination of the mains, the main omnis, the flanks, the house mics, the spot mics up stage and some gentle EQ and processing in post. That's why we call it "mixing" right?

But I'm one of those guys who likes LDCs as the main pair. I think they have a bit more body and fullness to the sound than SDCs, which serve well as the starting point for the base of the core sound of the ensemble.

This is a professional, union orchestra, and unfortunately, my contract with them doesn't allow me to post samples online for wider access to the public. It will be broadcast on the KWTU Radio station out of Tulsa, Oklahoma (which is the classical station run by KWGS out of the University of Tulsa). And they also have a live stream of their broadcasts online. I'm not sure yet when this one will broadcast, but I can try to update this thread when I find out in case any of you guys want to listen to it.
No worries. Thank you for your reply!!
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