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recording Copland Concerto for Clarinet Condenser Microphones
Old 25th March 2019
  #1
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recording Copland Concerto for Clarinet

recording:

•Aaron Copland Concerto for Clarinet

The Venue is a 1279 seat Baroque style theatre in the 'Opera Style' design/theatre's description.

Stage is four feet above the floor.

Looking for suggestions on miking technique.

Was wondering on main pair NOS/AB/XY/ORTF/MS plus mic on clarinet; if needed.

Looking for help to choose the array type and will use outriggers and 4 others.

Any suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks!
Old 25th March 2019
  #2
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JCBigler's Avatar
I would do a 4 mic main array of NOS with an A/B pair of OMNIs, a pair of outriggers, a pair for woodwinds, spot on the clarinet solo and an ORTF pair in the house for room ambiance. That’s 11 channels.

How many channels total do you have available?
Old 25th March 2019
  #3
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Haigbabe's Avatar
 

Hi.

I’m not wanting an overly exaggerated version of things, but in this work it’s important to have clarity on the harp. Same for the piano, but make it sound natural. The section with slap bass works well if you can get a good sound of the bass too, possibly worth its own ‘sniffer’ spot.

Good luck,

Haigbabe
Old 25th March 2019
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
I would do a 4 mic main array of NOS with an A/B pair of OMNIs, a pair of outriggers, a pair for woodwinds, spot on the clarinet solo and an ORTF pair in the house for room ambiance. That’s 11 channels.

How many channels total do you have available?
I have enough available.

Is the width for the AB determined by the phone app?

NOS and AB on same plane? How high and distance from stage?

How far back from the AB for the ORTF?

Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haigbabe View Post
Hi.

I’m not wanting an overly exaggerated version of things, but in this work it’s important to have clarity on the harp. Same for the piano, but make it sound natural. The section with slap bass works well if you can get a good sound of the bass too, possibly worth its own ‘sniffer’ spot.

Good luck,

Haigbabe
Could you please call out a position for mic on piano and mic on harp.

Thanks
Old 25th March 2019
  #5
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JCBigler's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by emenelton View Post
I have enough available.

Is the width for the AB determined by the phone app?

NOS and AB on same plane? How high and distance from stage?

How far back from the AB for the ORTF?

Thanks
Yeah, I have started liking the sound of the NOS and AB on the same plane. AB omnis about 27” apart, NOS about 12” apart. I have a 24” bar that holds all four and the Omni diaphragms end up about 26”-27” apart. Usually for a full orchestra, they are 10 to 12 feet above the deck. And just down stage of the conductor by a couple feet.

The ORTF house mics I like to have between about 1/3 and 1/2 way from the stage to the back of the room. For me, it mainly depends on where I can hang them or put a stand, like in an aisle or a row that can be killed for seating. Depending on the size of the house, that can be between 30 and 50 feet from the front of the stage and the main array.
Old 25th March 2019
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
Yeah, I have started liking the sound of the NOS and AB on the same plane. AB omnis about 27” apart, NOS about 12” apart. I have a 24” bar that holds all four and the Omni diaphragms end up about 26”-27” apart. Usually for a full orchestra, they are 10 to 12 feet above the deck. And just down stage of the conductor by a couple feet.

The ORTF house mics I like to have between about 1/3 and 1/2 way from the stage to the back of the room. For me, it mainly depends on where I can hang them or put a stand, like in an aisle or a row that can be killed for seating. Depending on the size of the house, that can be between 30 and 50 feet from the front of the stage and the main array.
Nice. Do you try to get the house ORTF as high as possible? and do you angle the AB's?
Old 25th March 2019
  #7
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JCBigler's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by emenelton View Post
Nice. Do you try to get the house ORTF as high as possible? and do you angle the AB's?
Yes. At least 12 feet high, 14 is better. If I can hang them from a catwalk, then they are usually 25 or 30 feet over the audience.

I follow the same angle for the main ABs as the NOS, which is 90 degrees, but being omnis, their angle isn’t quite as rigid as the NOS pair.
Old 25th March 2019
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
Yes. At least 12 feet high, 14 is better. If I can hang them from a catwalk, then they are usually 25 or 30 feet over the audience.

I follow the same angle for the main ABs as the NOS, which is 90 degrees, but being omnis, their angle isn’t quite as rigid as the NOS pair.
2 mc930
2 mk21
1 b-format array

do the NOS and AB point parallel with the stage or angle down.

and the

mk21, mc930 and b-format, could you offer suggestions
The mc930 is my weakest of the three

for the nos mics and WW pair; between the mc930 and mk21 which would go to the NOS?

I think my b-format would work in the hall or at the WW position, so trying to juggle the three positions with my mics.

Last edited by emenelton; 26th March 2019 at 12:27 AM..
Old 26th March 2019
  #9
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Haigbabe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by emenelton View Post
I have enough available.

Could you please call out a position for mic on piano and mic on harp.

Thanks
Hi.

For piano, a single mic is ok but considering the small orchestration I would actually use a pair on the piano under ideal circumstances. Remember the context of this work: for Benny Goodman. And that Copland wanted a work reflecting that performer (leaving aside that Benny reputedly wanted a work to reflect his ‘legit’ aspirations). A pair for piano in certain sections of the work with narrow stereo/LR spacing can give a great moment in the listeners’ experience. As to placing, if your mics are any closer to the piano than 40cms I’d be concerned. But it’s your recording in your hall with your piano. Your tastes.

For harp, I always want a natural ethereal/dreamy/Appalachian Spring sound in this work, that’s all. Clear. Not exaggerated. Not distant. Section one of this work is a seductive warm afternoon with slightly clammy humidity, consider it the first martini of the evening before the party kicks off. Play it cool. Play it very cool. As should be the case with slap bass. This work should be an exercise in understatement to some degree, but don’t leave us wanting too(!) much.

Good luck,

Haigbabe
Old 26th March 2019
  #10
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haigbabe View Post
Hi.

For piano, a single mic is ok but considering the small orchestration I would actually use a pair on the piano under ideal circumstances. Remember the context of this work: for Benny Goodman. And that Copland wanted a work reflecting that performer (leaving aside that Benny reputedly wanted a work to reflect his ‘legit’ aspirations). A pair for piano in certain sections of the work with narrow stereo/LR spacing can give a great moment in the listeners’ experience. As to placing, if your mics are any closer to the piano than 40cms I’d be concerned. But it’s your recording in your hall with your piano. Your tastes.

For harp, I always want a natural ethereal/dreamy/Appalachian Spring sound in this work, that’s all. Clear. Not exaggerated. Not distant. Section one of this work is a seductive warm afternoon with slightly clammy humidity, consider it the first martini of the evening before the party kicks off. Play it cool. Play it very cool. As should be the case with slap bass. This work should be an exercise in understatement to some degree, but don’t leave us wanting too(!) much.

Good luck,

Haigbabe
Thanks,

Appreciate it. I am listening to some examples
Old 27th March 2019
  #11
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haigbabe View Post
Hi.

For piano, a single mic is ok but considering the small orchestration I would actually use a pair on the piano under ideal circumstances. Remember the context of this work: for Benny Goodman. And that Copland wanted a work reflecting that performer (leaving aside that Benny reputedly wanted a work to reflect his ‘legit’ aspirations). A pair for piano in certain sections of the work with narrow stereo/LR spacing can give a great moment in the listeners’ experience. As to placing, if your mics are any closer to the piano than 40cms I’d be concerned. But it’s your recording in your hall with your piano. Your tastes.

For harp, I always want a natural ethereal/dreamy/Appalachian Spring sound in this work, that’s all. Clear. Not exaggerated. Not distant. Section one of this work is a seductive warm afternoon with slightly clammy humidity, consider it the first martini of the evening before the party kicks off. Play it cool. Play it very cool. As should be the case with slap bass. This work should be an exercise in understatement to some degree, but don’t leave us wanting too(!) much.

Good luck,

Haigbabe
With the NOS and AB does the clarinet get its own mic too?
Old 27th March 2019
  #12
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JCBigler's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by emenelton View Post
With the NOS and AB does the clarinet get its own mic too?
I would, yes. You'll probably get plenty of the clarinet in the main array. But then if you have a spot you can add a little more if the rest of the orchestra over powers it. Plus, the closer mic adds a little more prescience.
Old 27th March 2019
  #13
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Haigbabe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by emenelton View Post
With the NOS and AB does the clarinet get its own mic too?
I've just been checking my notes of the last few decades of recordings and only rarely come across the sentence from a soloist: 'Hey, that sounds great, but there's way too much of me in the mix!'

Besides which, the middle section, which is mainly unaccompanied solo cadenza, may do well to have a little more intimacy.

JCBigler (above) put it very well.

Haigbabe
Old 30th March 2019
  #14
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
Yeah, I have started liking the sound of the NOS and AB on the same plane. AB omnis about 27” apart, NOS about 12” apart. I have a 24” bar that holds all four and the Omni diaphragms end up about 26”-27” apart. Usually for a full orchestra, they are 10 to 12 feet above the deck. And just down stage of the conductor by a couple feet.

The ORTF house mics I like to have between about 1/3 and 1/2 way from the stage to the back of the room. For me, it mainly depends on where I can hang them or put a stand, like in an aisle or a row that can be killed for seating. Depending on the size of the house, that can be between 30 and 50 feet from the front of the stage and the main array.
For the main array, what is your ‘rule of thumb’ technique for angling it down?

and

should the outriggers be on the same line with the main array or behind it?

i have the array put together with the NOS and AB, thanks for the advice.
I combined both your’s and Haigbabe’s suggestion except for the back ORTF. Just couldn’t swing it.
Old 31st March 2019
  #15
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JCBigler's Avatar
IDK...30 degrees down maybe? I just eyeball the down tilt based on how close I am to the ensemble. Often my outriggers are further upstage because I tend to hang them from a lighting bridge over head and there's no good place to pull them downstage from.
Old 31st March 2019
  #16
Gear Addict
 

Angry

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
IDK...30 degrees down maybe? I just eyeball the down tilt based on how close I am to the ensemble. Often my outriggers are further upstage because I tend to hang them from a lighting bridge over head and there's no good place to pull them downstage from.
Thanks; upstage does mean closer into the orchestra?
I will probably match the line because, that works out in the venue.

I think i’m up to 16 mics including 4 lines for the b-format at the WW. I ran out of cardioid pairs.

That’s seems like too much for such a modest little chamber piece but I’m going for it. Thanks again.
Old 31st March 2019
  #17
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JCBigler's Avatar
Upstage means further away from the audience, down stage is towards the audience (in a traditional procesnium type stage).

I’m unfamiliar with the B-Format mocks so I can’t offer any advice there. But there’s no woodwinds in this piece, so it may be a moot point.
Old 31st March 2019
  #18
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
Upstage means further away from the audience, down stage is towards the audience (in a traditional procesnium type stage).

I’m unfamiliar with the B-Format mocks so I can’t offer any advice there. But there’s no woodwinds in this piece, so it may be a moot point.
I didn’t expect to hear upstage
I don’t have the opportunity to change mics around in the middle of the program but I can define a scene of active mics for each piece which would thin out my track count....
Old 3rd April 2019
  #19
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thanks JCBigler and Haigbabe

for all your advice it worked out really well
Old 12th April 2019
  #20
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
Upstage means further away from the audience, down stage is towards the audience (in a traditional procesnium type stage).

I’m unfamiliar with the B-Format mocks so I can’t offer any advice there. But there’s no woodwinds in this piece, so it may be a moot point.
thanks again , this is Appalachian Spring from the same concert

the AB was 45 degrees like the NOS

the WW/Brass is a b-format Harpex cardioid decode 40 cm 0 degrees

The NOS is 3 db under the AB and the Flanks are 6db under the AB.

Masters by PlantLady Rec Services | Free Listening on SoundCloud

Last edited by emenelton; 13th April 2019 at 12:58 AM.. Reason: narrow’d width to 80 n WL
Old 13th April 2019
  #21
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Thank you. Enjoyed this - a nice recording.
Old 14th April 2019
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haigbabe View Post
Hi.

For piano, a single mic is ok but considering the small orchestration I would actually use a pair on the piano under ideal circumstances. Remember the context of this work: for Benny Goodman. And that Copland wanted a work reflecting that performer (leaving aside that Benny reputedly wanted a work to reflect his ‘legit’ aspirations). A pair for piano in certain sections of the work with narrow stereo/LR spacing can give a great moment in the listeners’ experience. As to placing, if your mics are any closer to the piano than 40cms I’d be concerned. But it’s your recording in your hall with your piano. Your tastes.

For harp, I always want a natural ethereal/dreamy/Appalachian Spring sound in this work, that’s all. Clear. Not exaggerated. Not distant. Section one of this work is a seductive warm afternoon with slightly clammy humidity, consider it the first martini of the evening before the party kicks off. Play it cool. Play it very cool. As should be the case with slap bass. This work should be an exercise in understatement to some degree, but don’t leave us wanting too(!) much.

Good luck,

Haigbabe
I used JC’s array direction but I followed your details from above.

Thank-you,

The Appalachian is my best string sound ever and the spots on the piano/harp/timo/viol worked out well

Masters by PlantLady Rec Services | Free Listening on SoundCloud

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
Thank you. Enjoyed this - a nice recording.
Thanks Jim
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