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Is Schoeps still king in 2019? Condenser Microphones
Old 10th March 2019
  #1
Gear Head
 

Is Schoeps still king in 2019?

All publicity is good publicity some may say! Took a snap shot of this yesterday cause i thought it was funny! The Schoeps CMIT5U used during the R Kelly interview! So sticking to topic now. Few months ago i got myself a CMIT Mini and been loving it!! I been seeing alot of big production videos with some kind of Schoeps mic being used. So i just wanna ask.. Do most of you professionals still see Schoeps as the "king" in location recording?
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Is Schoeps still king in 2019?-rkelly.jpg  
Old 10th March 2019
  #2
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jnorman's Avatar
I have owned a broad gamut of Neumann’s, Sennheiser Mkh’s, DPA 4000 series, gefells, AkGs, Royers, AEAs, Coles, etc etc, and I can say that literally every mic I ever used from any of the ones I just listed was high quality kit that turned out professional results. However, I do have to say that my Schoeps mics are consistently my overall favorite microphones for location work. They are wonderfully smooth and neutral and always yield superlative imaging and depth. But - I am just a small studio, and my opinion is worth little in the big picture. It is watching production broadcasts of major orchestras from all over the world and seeing Schoeps mics all over the stages that truly speaks to their status in the industry.
Old 10th March 2019
  #3
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szegedin's Avatar
They sure are.

But I wouldn't want to lay odds on how long that will continue. The technology of those mics is getting very, very long in the tooth. Few companies (Schoeps inclusive) see a positive ROI on doing really deep research and development, so things kind of ground to a halt in the 1970s. But there is a lot of money washing around China and that will change. Microphones are one kind of technology that is ripe for a really radical leap forward. There should be whole new kinds of transducers by now.
Old 10th March 2019
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by szegedin View Post
The technology of those mics is getting very, very long in the tooth.
The wheel hasn't changed much either in a while.

Quote:
Microphones are one kind of technology that is ripe for a really radical leap forward. There should be whole new kinds of transducers by now.
But one must ask why not. Nature hasn't felt compelled to depart from the pressure sensitive diaphram over many years.

Something that I thought was obvious from the start was to get the mic signal to digital as soon as possible after the capsule. AES42 was very exciting to me.
Old 10th March 2019
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
The wheel hasn't changed much either in a while.


But one must ask why not. Nature hasn't felt compelled to depart from the pressure sensitive diaphram over many years.

Something that I thought was obvious from the start was to get the mic signal to digital as soon as possible after the capsule. AES42 was very exciting to me.
The uptake of digital mics seems to have been very slow..high selling price, suspicion from the marketplace, concerns about upgradeability ?

Of the high volume companies in mic making, Rode will be worth watching, particularly with their new TF endorsed NT5 series (if they use the new RF proof connector) Rode currently don't rate high up in the esteemed Sennheiser/Schoeps/Neumann kingdom...I wonder if the next generation of their mics might break that barrier (if they do, they'll almost certainly drag down the entry price to that esteemed territory, via their automated procedures)

Of course, there are many here who will laugh at the very conceit of mentioning NT-anything in the same breath as MKH or MK or KM....
Old 10th March 2019
  #6
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
The uptake of digital mics seems to have been very slow..high selling price, suspicion from the marketplace, concerns about upgradeability ?

Of the high volume companies in mic making, Rode will be worth watching, particularly with their new TF endorsed NT5 series (if they use the new RF proof connector) Rode currently don't rate high up in the esteemed Sennheiser/Schoeps/Neumann kingdom...I wonder if the next generation of their mics might break that barrier (if they do, they'll almost certainly drag down the entry price to that esteemed territory, via their automated procedures)

Of course, there are many here who will laugh at the very conceit of mentioning NT-anything in the same breath as MKH or MK or KM....
I think someday all the great analog pieces will be antiques. We will get the sound we all lust for with just a usb mic plugged into a tablet. LOL
Old 10th March 2019
  #7
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Originally Posted by ChuckyGold View Post
I think someday all the great analog pieces will be antiques. We will get the sound we all lust for with just a usb mic plugged into a tablet. LOL
I think you're right...the archetypical "straight wire with gain"

However, it will likely sound so completely 'real' we'll hate it, and thus hanker for some of the current veilings & distortions our ears are so familiar with...a bit like the nostalgia for analog recording tape and tubes of the last 20 years ! It'll be a case of 'be careful what you wish for'

I think it's the end of chain reproducers (speakers, headphones) will need to be part of that revolution as well, however ?
Old 10th March 2019
  #8
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I'm not sure there is a single king or if there are multiple fiefdoms ruled by a few at the top. There are so many microphones in use.

MK41 is still a favorite for some location dialog applications. A pair of Sennheiser MKH30s are certainly capable microphones for other applications.

I think it depends on what you are recording and what budget you have.
Old 10th March 2019
  #9
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Thumbs up

I still say that Sennheiser is the "king" in location recording because the RF technique makes them immune to the problems that affect normal AF condensers.

However good Schoeps mics are, I would always be hesitant in useng them in damp / foggy conditions. And Schoeps did used to recommend returning mics for cleaning every now and again if used in outdoor conditions as a clean diaphragm is less susceptable to the problems caused by damp as teher is nothing on the capsule to absorb the moisture.
Old 10th March 2019
  #10
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
I still say that Sennheiser is the "king" in location recording because the RF technique makes them immune to the problems that affect normal AF condensers.

However good Schoeps mics are, I would always be hesitant in useng them in damp / foggy conditions. And Schoeps did used to recommend returning mics for cleaning every now and again if used in outdoor conditions as a clean diaphragm is less susceptable to the problems caused by damp as teher is nothing on the capsule to absorb the moisture.
John.. Come summer we are gonna put my CMIT mini to this test! I'm curious as i heard this mentioned about the CMIT5U having these issues.
Old 10th March 2019
  #11
A few months ago I went to the San Francisco symphony to hear Beethoven's ninth. There was a note in the program asking the audience to be extra quite because tonight's concert was being recorded for a future release. i looked around and I was surprised to see so many ribbon mics on stage (and not hung, but on stands of varying height). From where I was sitting (12th row, centered) I couldn't be sure of exact models, but there appeared to be R121 on each string section (except viola, where its was an sf2). there were a pair of 121 as flankers, what seemed like R84 on brass and timpani plus a few others scattered around and in the orchestra, and, for the opening piece which featured a soprano soloist, a stereo pair of 121 on her. All in all, i counted 24 microphones- and I am sure I missed some on short stands- at least 14 of which where ribbons.

Also, a few years back an out of town company doing a recording of the SFSO needed a few more DPA mics. I know, 'cause they rented some of mine.

I think what is used on a particular recording by those who can use anything is determined more by the desired outcome than by "loyalty" to a particular brand.
Old 10th March 2019
  #12
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildplum View Post
A few months ago I went to the San Francisco symphony to hear Beethoven's ninth. There was a note in the program asking the audience to be extra quite because tonight's concert was being recorded for a future release. i looked around and I was surprised to see so many ribbon mics on stage (and not hung, but on stands of varying height). From where I was sitting (12th row, centered) I couldn't be sure of exact models, but there appeared to be R121 on each string section (except viola, where its was an sf2). there were a pair of 121 as flankers, what seemed like R84 on brass and timpani plus a few others scattered around and in the orchestra, and, for the opening piece which featured a soprano soloist, a stereo pair of 121 on her. All in all, i counted 24 microphones- and I am sure I missed some on short stands- at least 14 of which where ribbons.

Also, a few years back an out of town company doing a recording of the SFSO needed a few more DPA mics. I know, 'cause they rented some of mine.

I think what is used on a particular recording by those who can use anything is determined more by the desired outcome than by "loyalty" to a particular brand.
Oh that's interesting! Speaking of DPA i really love the DPA 4018 within 8 inches!
Old 10th March 2019
  #13
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckyGold View Post
John.. Come summer we are gonna put my CMIT mini to this test! I'm curious as i heard this mentioned about the CMIT5U having these issues.
The CMiT is an excellent mic., especially the SuperCMiT, don't get me wrong; but it's still an AF condenser.

An AF condenser (ie: normal condenser mic.) has a capsule of very high impedance - this attracts contaminants to the diaphragm by electrostatic action and these contaminants can absorb moisture and cause spitting, cracking and noise.

A new, clean mic. will behave better than an older one that has more contaminants.

An RF condenser has a low impedance capsule and is used as a tuning capacitor in nan RF circuit.

You can read the details here
Old 10th March 2019
  #14
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
The CMiT is an excellent mic., especially the SuperCMiT, don't get me wrong; but it's still an AF condenser.

An AF condenser (ie: normal condenser mic.) has a capsule of very high impedance - this attracts contaminants to the diaphragm by electrostatic action and these contaminants can absorb moisture and cause spitting, cracking and noise.

A new, clean mic. will behave better than an older one that has more contaminants.

An RF condenser has a low impedance capsule and is used as a tuning capacitor in nan RF circuit.

You can read the details here
Good info John!
Old 10th March 2019
  #15
Gear Maniac
 
szegedin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
The wheel hasn't changed much either in a while.


But one must ask why not. Nature hasn't felt compelled to depart from the pressure sensitive diaphram over many years.
Last I checked, Schoeps didn't evolve out of a mushroom or something. The technique of using a plastic or foil diaphragm and measuring the difference in capacitance is far from natural. Nature uses a system of thousands of cilia in a fluid, with a nerve for each cilia resonating within a very narrow band. Show me a mic that uses @10,000 small transducers, each tuned for a very narrow frequency range, and summing that system, and providing a dynamic range slightly greater than human hearing -- that's when I will open my wallet.

But for now, all microphones sound absolutely terrible compared to human hearing, and technological innovation is sorely needed. You only need to step outside and night and listen to a fork hit the sidewalk from half a block away to reflect on the vast gulf between mics and ears.
Old 10th March 2019
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by szegedin View Post
Nature uses a system of thousands of cilia in a fluid, with a nerve for each cilia resonating within a very narrow band.
After the diaphram and a rather crude hammer.

Quote:
Show me a mic that uses @10,000 small transducers, each tuned for a very narrow frequency range, and summing that system, and providing a dynamic range slightly greater than human hearing -- that's when I will open my wallet.
Show me an ear that has a flat frequency response, and an immunity to masking and fatigue.

Quote:
But for now, all microphones sound absolutely terrible compared to human hearing, and technological innovation is sorely needed.
Can't agree with this. Microphones are quite miraculous, as are loudspeakers. The fact that vintage mics are so sort after and the lack of innovation in the capsule and capacitance pickup hasn't occurred in the last 70 years, gives you a huge clue about their competency for the job.

Last edited by David Spearritt; 10th March 2019 at 10:41 PM..
Old 10th March 2019
  #17
Gear Addict
 
fred2bern's Avatar
"Do most of you professionals still see Schoeps as the "king" in location recording? "

It depends what kind of location recording.
If you're talking about classical music recordings on location, indoor, from solo to symphonic, I would say there is no kings.
I find there is a large offer and then, a matter of taste.

I use Neumann as main when the room is good, when the room is not so good I use some Sennheiser.
To spot strings, winds, brasses, voices, I use microphones from Schoeps, Neumann, Royer...

I already wrote somewhere that, for example, I don't like the MK4, but I bought MK22s to spot violins and violas and MK2s when I have to spot a piano. I used the MK2 over an organ weeks ago and was really impressed by the quality of the low register response.
I tried a full Neumann setup and was really disappointed by how sounds a KM184 as spot in a M150 pair over a harp, for example (but BIS work with a lot of 184, so...).
Disappointed too when I tried to blend some MK21 (spot over a Steinway) into a MKH800 Twin main pair.

Choice is a matter of taste, and the Schoeps MK22 was for me better than everything else I tried, including Sennheiser MKH8040 or MKH40, KM184, TLM107, CM-3, MK012... to spot the way I wanted the upper strings, in a Neumann or a Sennheiser main pair.

Some will say DPA or nothing etc, Schoeps or nothing, Sennheiser or Neumann or nothing...
I try to find what sounds the best to my ears. No kings, maybe a federal setup!

Fred.
Old 10th March 2019
  #18
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Plush's Avatar
Thread is dangerously close to the prohibited GS topic: "What is the best. . .?"
Task, a family sound, personal relationships, trust, even copycatting---these largely determine which microphone is reached for.
Old 10th March 2019
  #19
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Thread is dangerously close to the prohibited GS topic: "What is the best. . .?"
Task, a family sound, personal relationships, trust, even copycatting---these largely determine which microphone is reached for.
I just asked if "Do most of you professionals still see Schoeps as the "king" in location recording?" Not what is best! Does not necessarily mean best! Could be most widely used. I just posted to see what pros had to say since i seen a lot recently of the Schoeps being used!
Old 10th March 2019
  #20
Gear Maniac
 
szegedin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
After the diaphram and a rather crude hammer.


Show me an ear that has a flat frequency response, and an immunity to masking and fatigue.


Can't agree with this. Microphones are quite miraculous, as are loudspeakers. The fact that vintage mics are so sort after and the lack of innovation in the capsule and capacitance pickup hasn't occurred in the last 70 years, gives you a huge clue about their competency for the job.
Only on the internet, this kind of comment...
I'm glad you're satisfied with them.
Old 11th March 2019
  #21
Gear Head
 

Sorry Guys! Won't happen again!
Attached Files

SorryGearslutz.mp3 (3.16 MB, 2199 views)

Old 11th March 2019
  #22
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
^^^
Old 11th March 2019
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckyGold View Post
Sorry Guys! Won't happen again!
All is forgiven Chucky (but only because you used a CMIT !)
Old 11th March 2019
  #24
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Tommy-boy's Avatar
 

Probably no one king. However, I really like my Schoeps mics.
Old 11th March 2019
  #25
Elvis is the King.
Old 12th March 2019
  #26
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckyGold View Post
Sorry Guys! Won't happen again!
Awww, don't take it so personally. Some people just like to boss people. If the Mantle of Authority was a Halloween costume, they'd wear it all year long. The lady at the front desk at my doctor's office is like that.

Late edit: but the doctor's-office lady, to her credit, has never sent me a threatening GS PM.

Last edited by Brent Hahn; 12th March 2019 at 08:50 PM..
Old 12th March 2019
  #27
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12ax7's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Elvis is the King.
Yes, of course he was:

...And you can tell because even though he's now dead, he is still commonly spoken of in the present tense!
(Well that, and also because he hasn't got sh!t all over him!)
.
Old 12th March 2019
  #28
Gear Maniac
 
ronmac's Avatar
Funny, considering this is the Forum section I see at the top of the home page:

Best Studio Gear
The gear that the Gearslutz community talks about the most.


Opening reveals this:

Ten of the Best Analog Mix Bus Processors Right Now
Ten Of The Best Semi-Modular Synths Right Now
Ten of the Best Audio Repair Software & Plug-Ins
Ten Most Popular Reverb Plug-Ins Right Now
Ten of the best drum machines right now
Ten of the best free effects plug-ins
Ten of the best Thunderbolt and USB-C audio interfaces
Ten of the best vintage drum machines
10 Most Popular 500-Series EQs
Ten of the best mobile apps for music production
10 most popular DAWs right now
10 most popular audio interfaces right now
10 most popular channel strip plug-ins right now
The 10 most popular plug-ins right now
10 of the most popular EQ plug-ins right now
10 of the best virtual pianos right now
10 Most Talked About Condenser Microphones Right Now
10 Most Talked About Compressor Plug-Ins Right Now
10 Most Talked About Dynamic Microphones Right Now
10 Most Talked About Keyboard Synthesizers Right Now
Ten of the best headphones over $300
Ten of the best 8-preamp audio interfaces under $1k
Ten of the best microphones to record tom-tom drums
Ten of the best step sequencers
Ten of the best guitar amp simulation plug-ins
Ten of the best mics for recording drums overheads
Ten preamps to expand your audio interface (from $150 to $800)
Ten of the best brickwall limiter plug-ins
Ten of the best MIDI/USB Keyboard Controllers
Ten of the best mics for recording snare drums
Ten of the best Delay Plug-Ins
Ten UAD plug-ins Gearslutz can't live without
Ten of the best polyphonic analog synthesizers
Ten of the best microphones for recording kick drums
Top Five Audio Interfaces Under $300
Ten of the Best Microphones under $300 for Recording Vocals
Ten Active Studio Monitors (under $1,000)
Top Ten Large-Diaphragm Condenser Microphones under $1000
Ten of the best 500-series Mic Preamps
Ten of the Best Studio Monitors ($1,000 to $2,000)
Best Headphones (under $200)
Ten Mics for Recording Acoustic Guitars (under $1,000)
Ten Portable USB Audio Interfaces
Best Reverb Plugins
Best Soft Synth Plugins
Best Compressor Plugins
Best EQ Plugins


Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Thread is dangerously close to the prohibited GS topic: "What is the best. . .?"
Task, a family sound, personal relationships, trust, even copycatting---these largely determine which microphone is reached for.
Old 13th March 2019
  #29
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tourtelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronmac View Post
Funny, considering this is the Forum section I see at the top of the home page:

Best Studio Gear
The gear that the Gearslutz community talks about the most.


Opening reveals this:

Ten of the Best Analog Mix Bus Processors Right Now
Ten Of The Best Semi-Modular Synths Right Now
Ten of the Best Audio Repair Software & Plug-Ins
Ten Most Popular Reverb Plug-Ins Right Now
Ten of the best drum machines right now
Ten of the best free effects plug-ins
Ten of the best Thunderbolt and USB-C audio interfaces
Ten of the best vintage drum machines
10 Most Popular 500-Series EQs
Ten of the best mobile apps for music production
10 most popular DAWs right now
10 most popular audio interfaces right now
10 most popular channel strip plug-ins right now
The 10 most popular plug-ins right now
10 of the most popular EQ plug-ins right now
10 of the best virtual pianos right now
10 Most Talked About Condenser Microphones Right Now
10 Most Talked About Compressor Plug-Ins Right Now
10 Most Talked About Dynamic Microphones Right Now
10 Most Talked About Keyboard Synthesizers Right Now
Ten of the best headphones over $300
Ten of the best 8-preamp audio interfaces under $1k
Ten of the best microphones to record tom-tom drums
Ten of the best step sequencers
Ten of the best guitar amp simulation plug-ins
Ten of the best mics for recording drums overheads
Ten preamps to expand your audio interface (from $150 to $800)
Ten of the best brickwall limiter plug-ins
Ten of the best MIDI/USB Keyboard Controllers
Ten of the best mics for recording snare drums
Ten of the best Delay Plug-Ins
Ten UAD plug-ins Gearslutz can't live without
Ten of the best polyphonic analog synthesizers
Ten of the best microphones for recording kick drums
Top Five Audio Interfaces Under $300
Ten of the Best Microphones under $300 for Recording Vocals
Ten Active Studio Monitors (under $1,000)
Top Ten Large-Diaphragm Condenser Microphones under $1000
Ten of the best 500-series Mic Preamps
Ten of the Best Studio Monitors ($1,000 to $2,000)
Best Headphones (under $200)
Ten Mics for Recording Acoustic Guitars (under $1,000)
Ten Portable USB Audio Interfaces
Best Reverb Plugins
Best Soft Synth Plugins
Best Compressor Plugins
Best EQ Plugins

Oh, I was so excited! I thought these were links.

D.
Old 13th March 2019
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
Oh, I was so excited! I thought these were links.

D.
If they were links.... this forum would become immediately redundant...lol !
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