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How much responsibility do we have to correct or inform musicians? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1
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jnorman's Avatar
How much responsibility do we have to correct or inform musicians?

So I recorded a woodwind quintet today. They were all quite good musicians who should be well aware of the intricacies of their particular instrument. During the course of the session, I noticed a number of times where I was hearing key clacking from the French horn, and there were places where the bassoon played low register double fortes during which the notes had a loud unpleasant buzz quality. I have not recorded enough bassoon or horn players to know whether or not the key clacking of the horn and the weird buzzy noise on the low loud notes on the bassoon are normal and unavoidable, or whether they are controllable through valve or pad adjustments of the horn, or not overblowing low notes on the bassoon. Therefore, I did not say anything to either player. But the key noise and low note buzzes are quite noticeable in the recording.

Should I have mentioned it, knowing that the players must themselves be well aware of those issues? As engineers/producers, what are our responsibilities to help musicians achieve the best recordings without risking offending our clients?

Clips available if you wish to hear what I am trying to describe.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2
My first question is who was acting as producer, the guy who's got the responsibility for the final product? It sounds like the answer is "nobody", perhaps because this wasn't intended to be a "product"?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #3
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whippoorwill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
So I recorded a woodwind quintet today. They were all quite good musicians who should be well aware of the intricacies of their particular instrument. During the course of the session, I noticed a number of times where I was hearing key clacking from the French horn, and there were places where the bassoon played low register double fortes during which the notes had a loud unpleasant buzz quality. I have not recorded enough bassoon or horn players to know whether or not the key clacking of the horn and the weird buzzy noise on the low loud notes on the bassoon are normal and unavoidable, or whether they are controllable through valve or pad adjustments of the horn, or not overblowing low notes on the bassoon. Therefore, I did not say anything to either player. But the key noise and low note buzzes are quite noticeable in the recording.

Should I have mentioned it, knowing that the players must themselves be well aware of those issues? As engineers/producers, what are our responsibilities to help musicians achieve the best recordings without risking offending our clients?

Clips available if you wish to hear what I am trying to describe.
One tactic is to play them the offending part on revealing headphone monitoring near a bad spot. You can mention it or not. If they notice then they can correct it, if they don't well they might not hear it in a final product.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #4
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JCBigler's Avatar
If you are recording a small group, like a woodwind quintette, or even a solo performance, you are going to hear some key noise from the woodwind players and perhaps brass players as well. That’s just kind of the way things are.

I’m a saxophone player and have heard the same noise from every woodwind recital or jury I’ve ever listened to from college; saxophone, flute, clarinet, bassoon, etc...
Old 2 weeks ago
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whippoorwill View Post
One tactic is to play them the offending part on revealing headphone monitoring near a bad spot. You can mention it or not. If they notice then they can correct it, if they don't well they might not hear it in a final product.
This is the best approach, even tactfully mentioning it is not out of line...asking if it's a natural part of the instrumental tone ? If it's something mechanically fixable then I'd expect them to be at least concerned, and attempt a remedy.

With bassoon I'd say it's part of the instrument's character, good players can minimise the clicking but not eliminate entirely. Your job as recording engineer is to mic in such a way as it's minimised, without compromising overall tone of the instrument or accompanying players !

The room can accentuate these also.....hard surfaces nearby can highlight these sounds, just as carpeting and drapes can attenuate them. Just being too close with mics generally will do that too, but largely it's a combination of player experience and technique and perhaps instrument maintenance, if pads are getting worn or hinge/bearing mechanisms aren't adjusted and correctly lubricated.

Using Omni mics off axis, so the HF components of the clicking are discriminated against can help somewhat, but won't eliminate ....that's in the players' hands. Were the horns being closely miked.....they generally rely upon rear wall reflection to give them a warm, burnished tone, and don't sound good up close.

Last edited by studer58; 2 weeks ago at 04:49 AM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #6
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henryrobinett's Avatar
I think politely asking whether that’s ok. I think they’d be horrified to know and be appreciative of being able to correct.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7
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What whipporwill said. For studio orchestral work, calling in the players for a playback to the control room usually immediately resolves the issue. Sometimes they are in the moment playing and don't realize the problem. Or how much the mics pick up.
(Or sometimes, when I really want to tactfully draw attention to it, yelling to an assistant "can we check back that noise I'm getting on x mic" and then just running over that section again in playback while all the players are standing there listening.)

If you have a dedicated producer, that's their job so they should be quite vocal about it.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #8
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In many cases, if you don't speak up, you're doing everybody a disservice. I'm not suggesting trying to force your way or that you have to take charge. Mentioning what you're hearing from the mics can be useful. Provide the information. Let them have a listen to what you're hearing.

As I do smaller engagements, there is no producer. Just a conductor. In some cases, just musicians. I politely let them know what I'm hearing. The next question is almost always, "can we do something about that?"

My goal is to help create a good recording. Feedback is helpful. I don't want to be in the position of being able to help, and holding back for fear of upsetting somebody. This where manners and a polished approach come in handy.

Perhaps those working with producers have a different view.

-Tom
Old 2 weeks ago
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy-boy View Post
In many cases, if you don't speak up, you're doing everybody a disservice. I'm not suggesting trying to force your way or that you have to take charge. Mentioning what you're hearing from the mics can be useful. Provide the information. Let them have a listen to what you're hearing.

As I do smaller engagements, there is no producer. Just a conductor. In some cases, just musicians. I politely let them know what I'm hearing. The next question is almost always, "can we do something about that?"

My goal is to help create a good recording. Feedback is helpful. I don't want to be in the position of being able to help, and holding back for fear of upsetting somebody. This where manners and a polished approach come in handy.

Perhaps those working with producers have a different view.

-Tom
Yes, this the right approach, at the very least have them listen to a playback and either embrace or dismiss your concerns....then respond appropriately. It may be within normal bounds, and the session continues....or enough of a roadblock requiring repair/replacement of instruments (or players) and the session is abandoned.

Or...get Plush in......he knows how to deal with this kind of situation !

It might be a good idea to post some of the concerning passages here for evaluation by the collective unconscious....
Old 2 weeks ago
  #10
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fred2bern's Avatar
 

If you are the producer, it is your job to give them the overall best quality at the end.

Finding a problem and saying or doing nothing is to me not the right way to do things.
can you imagine sending the first editing and having back a comment "why didn't you tell us"?

Sometimes on location you work in bad rooms because heater or cooling system, bad early reflections etc. and, as an engineer, you do what you can to cancel or at least minimize the problems.

Of course you have to know if they can change something or not, if the noise is "normal" or too much, if it serves the music and the artistic goal or if it kills it etc...

My point of view is that it is your responsibility to get the best when you work as a producer.

Fred

Last edited by fred2bern; 2 weeks ago at 08:31 AM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
As engineers/producers, what are our responsibilities to help musicians achieve the best recordings without risking offending our clients?
They hire you for your expertise so it's your responsibility to say something. Either it's an artistic choice or they will only notice their flaws once their ears are more developed wondering why no-one said anything during production. Any artist will appreciate your desire to make them sound as good as possible.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #12
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James Lehmann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
As engineers/producers, what are our responsibilities to help musicians achieve the best recordings without risking offending our clients?.
It's a good question and one I'm sure we all encounter often out in the field and in the studio. I can only really answer as an 'engineer' because 'producer' has significantly different connotations (aka 'balance of power'!), if indeed that's what you've been hired as.

Like so many things in life I think it depends hugely on the personalities of the people involved.

I've worked with well-known professionals who are personable and humble enough to ask me what I think, and I've worked with arrogant amateurs who think they know best and either don't ask for my advice or never take it.

This makes it almost impossible to generalise an answer to the question.

Of course, as an engineer you are responsible for the technical elements of the recording, although we all know even that can get 'over-ruled' by fussy musicians who may have a perfectly sound reason to flatly refuse to let you put a microphone exactly where you'd like it!

Perhaps in the situation you are in you could mask the issue slightly and invite the musicians to listen to the 'offending' section under the pretext of something like: 'I think my microphone may have picked up something funky in that section - would you mind checking that it sounds OK to you?', or some such excuse.

Last edited by James Lehmann; 2 weeks ago at 09:27 AM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #13
Gear Maniac
Speaking as an ex-musician I think that playing back the section and asking for comments is a good way to get feedback. But the producer, or engineer where there is no producer, can surely mention it, even as a hint and saying something like "I think I need to re-position that mic on the horn to avoid the clicks" or "do you like the recorded sound on your solo bit at ..."

I've had a player moan to me during a session that his solo sounded awful the way it was recorded, and when we went and requested a listen to it, I realised that it was a faithful recording of his poor sound ..." Discretion needed, and I could only agree that it did not sound great, but I had no idea why ...

In an orchestra you need to be discrete. The same player complained to me how the woodwind (on a different occasion) sounded un-together, or it may have been intonation or tuning, I can't remember, and hinted at a discrete word from me. Luckily I was very friendly with the woodwind players, and a discrete word worked perfectly. This is just the way of life in an orchestra, and often a word of encouragement works wonders. Musicians are just as unconfident about their performances as anyone else in any other profession or walk of life.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #14
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The main question is "how much responsibility to correct or inform musicians".

If you work as a producer, it's your job to do it.
The way you do it is another part of the thing.

As a producer, you need to work with a total confidence with the artists.
You work for them, because it is their sound and their music that has to be on the final product, but during the sessions they work for you, as you're paid to give them the result they want. The producer becomes an artistic member of the team.
This works from solo to symphonic productions.

I think most of time jobs and positions are not really defined with small productions. Are you here "just" to record, so you work as an engineer, are you here to record and conduct the sessions, so you have both engineer and producer suits, etc.

My opinion is that a producer don't have the same background as a sound engineer.
A producer has to know the music at least as well as the artists he's recording.
Not only how to read a score, but also to be experienced, to know the different schools, the styles etc. This is to me the basic to really understand the goal of the production you work on, the only way to build this artistic bridge between the conductor and the engineer. This is why I think a producer has to be a professional musician.

If you want the confidence of an orchestra, you need to be considered at the same level as the conductor, because when you stop a take it has to be for good reasons. This means knowing the score, talking with the main artists enough to be sure to understand the artistic goals to be able to lead the sessions.

It is a real job.

Fred.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #15
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I think there's a sliding scale.

At one end of the scale, if there's something obviously wrong and easily fixed, such as a guitar being out of tune, you'd absolutely tell the musician.

At the other end, there are things that are out of your control and can't be fixed during a session, and there's no point in telling anyone.

The judgement call is where to draw the line.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #16
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Something that's not been raised here specifically thus far is the "when"..... to raise any concerns you might have.

Take a hint from Mario Puzo's "The Godfather" on this **

If, after an hour's recording, you've lived with a niggling doubt that you haven't raised with the players (or even the producer, if they're next to you at the same workbench) and you decide to halt the session there for a playback...and it's then determined that the flaw is a 'fatal one'....you've just wasted an hour of everyone's time.

There's often a strong vested interest for we engineers to appear calm and to carry-on at all costs...but in the situation Jim has raised, to do so would be counter-productive.

It's no lapse of professional competence, nor an indication of tentativeness or 'newbieism' at the recording game, to record the first serious take of the day/evening and to have the players (or a representative of the band, or several) come back to the control room/broom cupboard for a playback and general appraisal/approval.

At this point you'd likely mention the aspect that's concerning you...you're not seeking an appraisal of your mic choice, array, mix etc...but a playing and/or "squeaks critique" only. This shouldn't take more than 5-8 minutes....and will reveal immediately any flaws that need remedying (even if to do so means terminating the session until instruments are tuned, repaired or playing style is rectified)

The players will thank you for this responsible, early intervention...and if the session continues immediately afterwards, it will do so with enhanced player confidence in their own abilities...and in yours at capturing it !! Win/win for everybody.

You do this once, early in the session as mentioned...not several times during (this tends to waste a lot of valuable session time !!)

** “Mr. Corleone is a man who insists on hearing bad news immediately.” The Godfather (1972)
Old 2 weeks ago
  #17
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Im not a musician
I have a good ear and experience
I find it difficult to communicate with muso's at their level
I cover my self by going again, the performance is then slightly different ,sometimes better, sometimes worse depending on how tired they are.
I would never go to take 30, but in 3 takes I hope I can capture something
This was the Decca /Solti method (more or less...)
It worked for them.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #18
Most of the times when I am doing recordings of small groups I have a producer doing the interfacing. One producer I worked with was so tactful he was able to point out problems without any one getting upset. Another producer was so tactless that she got the musicians so upset they were ready to cancel the session. She would keep on interrupting takes for the smallest problem and never let them play the section completely. The first violinist of the string quartet we were recording took her aside and told her that if she kept up what she was doing they would stop recording. They were really upset.

The record company chose this particular producer.

She would also reach over me to re-balance the microphones and would not listen to my concerns when she decided half way through the session to move all the microphones around even though half of the piece was recorded. She is a very famous classical producer so I guess she get results even if everyone hates her.

My advice - Be tactful and put yourself in the musicians place.

I have also had musicians I was recording tell me where to place the microphones and tell me what mics to use because they read it in a magazine. One musician was so vehement about what he wanted (the stereo pair back 40 feet from the stage) that we almost got into a knockout - drag out argument but cooler heads prevailed and I was allowed to put the microphone where I wanted them.

Ah yes, recording sessions can be and are suppose to be "fun" sometimes they are not.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #19
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James Lehmann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
I have also had musicians I was recording tell me where to place the microphones and tell me what mics to use because they read it in a magazine.
Ah yes - a classic case of a little 'knowledge' being worse than none at all!

I find this kind of behaviour infuriatingly insulting because it makes huge assumptions about your abilities and professionalism before the job even starts! I get it with mixing sometimes too: "You'll need to compress that" or worse "I've already compressed everything for you!".
Let me do my job first and then judge me on the results ffs!

Fortunately it's the exception rather than the rule.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
My advice - Be tactful and put yourself in the musicians place.

I have also had musicians I was recording tell me where to place the microphones and tell me what mics to use because they read it in a magazine. One musician was so vehement about what he wanted (the stereo pair back 40 feet from the stage) that we almost got into a knockout - drag out argument but cooler heads prevailed and I was allowed to put the microphone where I wanted them.

Ah yes, recording sessions can be and are suppose to be "fun" sometimes they are not.
Be tactful, yes...the old vinegar vs honey adage...but not at the expense of failing to deliver vital information which can assist the project as a whole (the job you are assigned for) The words you choose and the approach used can save face and avoid people getting defensive, feeling victimized or worse.

It's your job...or the producers...or if you wear both hats, back to you again...to ensure that the session is ready to go ahead...remember Don Corleone.That includes musical competence, integrity of instruments, knowing if outside factors like too much traffic or other noise is intruding.

I finished tonight the 2nd of 2 "fun" choral sessions (viz my SATB thread here) and apart from some tuning and clock-watching issues, plus noisy crickets which crept under the door and insisted on playing along with the singers (!) we had a ball
Old 2 weeks ago
  #21
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I think bringing it up is a good idea and see what the musicians say. In traditional Irish flute playing, for example, traditional players usually use glottal stops instead of tonguing to separate notes, which can often lead to small vocalizations while playing. I'm a flute player and have had engineers bring this up as a potential problem during recording sessions; I explain that I appreciate the concern but this is a normal and hard-to-avoid byproduct of traditional technique. Similarly, some button accordions can make a clackety sound as the keys are pressed and released and I've been in recording sessions where the engineers brought this up as well. But some players like having that sound on their recordings, it adds a percussive effect and it's part of the experience.

So in my view, the engineer and/or producer should bring it up as a potential issue, but then listen to the musicians' advice on whether or not it's actually a problem and whether they actually want those sounds to be present in the recording. Ironically, you can now buy piano sample instrument libraries for MIDI keyboards that include "mechanical sounds" such as the sounds of the pedal being pressed, or "player sounds," like the player's movement on the bench, to make the sound of the played samples more "realistic." The keyboard player can adjust the presence or absence of these sounds and alter their presence in the mix.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
... Therefore, I did not say anything to either player. But the key noise and low note buzzes are quite noticeable in the recording.

Should I have mentioned it, knowing that the players must themselves be well aware of those issues? As engineers/producers, what are our responsibilities to help musicians achieve the best recordings without risking offending our clients?

Clips available if you wish to hear what I am trying to describe.
assuming responsibilities/duties regarding 'producing' were sorted out prior to recording, i think this is more a discussion about self-awareness, critical listening capabilities, interaction amongst musicians, their preferences and their view on ensemble playing than about the producer's duties: for my taste, far too many recordings yield a degree of technical perfection which does not reflect most ensemble's real performance level/skills... - so yes, it's a viable option not to say anything!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #23
How much responsibility does the musician have to inform the audio engineer of any audio issues they detect?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
How much responsibility does the musician have to inform the audio engineer of any audio issues they detect?
I don't know about others but I would certainly want to know if there were a balance problem or someone heard something I did not.

I did have a problem with a 2nd violinist in a string quartet who always wanted his sound to be "bigger more beautiful" but I am told that is is like that with almost every 2nd violinist in almost every string quartet (they really want to be the first violin) FWIW!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #25
Gear Maniac
There was an occasion many years ago where we had been booked to record a singer for a slot to go into a show. (We did this gig fairly regularly). It was for a commercial TV station.

We did the recordings and when we heard the playback we just had to say to the producer/engineers that the balance was awful. I think we put it more politely than that. In the end we had to (along with the MD) really tell them how to balance the band, as they had no clue! They didn't seem to mind and in the end it turned out OK. I think they were an inexperienced lot, (at least in music recording) and I think there were several of them, probably not the usual crew, who had been assigned to the job as no one else was available. (It was early on a Sunday morning). I think the singer was to mime to the recording when it went out live later that afternoon/evening.

I remember on another occasion in a different radio studio, when listening to the playback, that one of the wind players pointed out that there was an upbeat quaver missing on his solo. The engineer looked in the trash bin and pulled out a strip of tape, spliced it in, and there was the missing note! No problem, I've done it myself, but then it was a semi-quaver in a string quartet recording, and in my case it was on the floor ...
Old 2 weeks ago
  #26
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I think it is a good idea to mention what you hear after giving them a playback. Or, during the playback, at the offending spot, ask them if they want that sound?
A flatulent and honking bassoon is not correct--unless it's a contra bassoon.


Better to call it to their attention than to live with something that can be ameliorated.

Musicians often don't know how they sound. And noisy instruments make no difference in a concert hall, so often they are not adjusted.

However, one often finds that the best musicians have the quietest instruments.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
How much responsibility does the musician have to inform the audio engineer of any audio issues they detect?
Good question. I have no problem listening to others' comments, questions, or concerns.

I would hope the musician's approach would be similar mine - in a polite way, make the other person aware of the issue and then let them guide you to what they want.

In my case, I'm also a musician. So I have that going in my favor.

If one the musicians I were recording also had strong audio knowledge and had something relevant to bring up - that's fine with me. If, for example, I used just a centrally placed pair and wasn't getting enough of the instruments from the edges of the ensemble and they brought this up, suggesting flankers - I'd put out flankers!

I've invited conductors to my studio for some jazz big band recordings I've done. I prepared the mixes in advance. Played the mix for the conductor, then asked for their feedback regarding the overall mix. Is there any instruments they want to bring out at spots? Any they want pushed back?

I think I do a good job, but I don't think I have all of the answers. Fortunately, it's rare that I've had a musician or conductor suggest something that was just a bad idea.

Worst suggestion I have received is was to back my main pair up much further away from the stage (like 40 feet back). Comment was from a very good conductor with not much experience in recording. He wanted a "blend." I laid out the pros/cons. Explained that the mics would be picking up more reflections than direct sound, and that there was no way to "undo" or minimize this in post. Also noted that with mics closer up, we could get more blend/blurring through the use of reverb in post. This provided more options. The conductor agreed and we kept on going with the mics in a sensible position.

If he did not agree, I would have thrown up another pair much further back, knowing it would sound like garbage. I'd have kept a pair where I wanted them too. Then I'd have let him listen to the results in post so he could understand the difference between two.

I made a comment to an audio engineer for a performance that I was not recording. I was just a happy attendee. His ORTF pair was really pointing in the wrong direction. I suspect that somewhere along the way he made some stand height adjustments and the cable movement caused the pair to shift. I went over, introduced myself, and politely made the observation. He appreciated the feedback and fixed it.

Which ever direction the advice flowing, I think it boils down to manners, trying to be helpful, and not forcing it to be your way.

-Tom
Old 2 weeks ago
  #28
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Talk to the players about what I hear or not? Who am I working for? If it is a producer, bandleader or filmmaker then I discuss the issue with them. If they want to to take action we do, if not then not. If it is a smaller affair with just the players and me, then there is an assumption that I will act like a producer (too) enough to flag things like this. If the players have a problem with being told what I hear then I won't tell them again. That almost never happens.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #29
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Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
During the course of the session, I noticed a number of times where I was hearing key clacking from the French horn...
As an old Horn player (haven't played in many years), when I had problems with "key clacking" it was mostly about the cork used in the rotary valve stops. It gets old and has to be replaced. Old wine corks and X-acto knives, and a little valve oil and we were good to go. I used to carry pre-cut spares in my case, along with some heavy linen fishing line (yes, there used to be such a thing) to use for valve string. It's always fun to pop a string in the middle of a symphony! I've had my first chair do just that on the run up to his favorite solo -- he was so pissed that I got to play it while he furiously worked to replace that string! Never forgave me, like it was my fault!

Anyway, typically no one can hear the "clacking". That is, I never had a director tell me or any horn player I knew to "fix it". But I did have some section leaders do that -- because they knew what it was, and they were close enough to hear it. IOW, the player is likely unaware that the mics are picking it up.

So play it back for the group, point out the noise, and ask the group what it is and if it can be fixed. The horn player will almost certainly own up to it (or the others will prevail on her/him) and the fix is likely just a couple of minutes during a break.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #30
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A great set of suggestions here, a truly valuable resource and set of viewpoints about the issue, I hope Jim is able to provide a few samples to be able to put the scale of his concern into context ?

For sure, an individually noisy instrument can lose that noise in an orchestral setting ( but it's simply masked..it hasn't departed !), whereas that same noise can suddenly get exposed in a quartet or sextet. As for the 'competing miking locations'....yes, just do multiple placements if time and hardware permits and track them all individually (everyone can be "correct" on location...and the inappropriate ones lost at mix time...)

As outlined above, early is best: for role definition of recording/ production personnel, for playback and fault/problem identification, for determining 'how many cooks in the kitchen'
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