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Recording Angle Williams/ Neumann App Dual-Channel Preamps
Old 1 week ago
  #31
Gear Nut
 

thanks for chiming in deedeeyeah,

the sound of the vocalist was indeed a little problem in postproduction. Although I was very careful with the level, the vocals quickly sounded a bit hard and cutting. I tried to get them a little softer with some compression, a very short reverb and delay. Also, I might have put the spots a bit too high the mix . Some weaknesses, especially the timing, are certainly due to the performance.
I have changed the mix a bit and am curious whether it has become better for other listeners. Question is, how can I add a sound file to my post?
Old 1 week ago
  #32
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFrommann View Post
Here is a little excerpt of the Nisi Dominus, I recorded some weeks ago. I ended up with a pair of Schoeps MK2 in AB ca. 40cm apart, plus a pair of MK21 as Stereospot for the Altus.
Not a very relaxing sound
Did you use compression ?
Or is it the room (bad) sound ?
Old 1 week ago
  #33
Gear Nut
 

Also my impression: not really relaxing. The room is not bad, I think. For the first time, I used an audio upgrade preamp (Jim Williams) for the main pair into my Tascam HSP82. Normally I use my Metric Halo ULN8. But this was a recording with not much time for setup and I also did the video, so enough to do.
In Post I used little compression on the master bus (Kotelnikov) and there is a sonnox limiter at the end of the chain. If I find out how to post sound files here, I will add a new mix later.
Old 1 week ago
  #34
Gear Nut
 

And here is the new mix. What do you think? Better?
Attached Files

Nisi Dominus Excerpt_10.3.19_2.mp3 (1.56 MB, 512 views)

Old 1 week ago
  #35
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFrommann View Post
And here is the new mix. What do you think? Better?
Yes, better.
I am curious about the mk2's alone with no treatment.
Old 1 week ago
  #36
Gear Nut
 

You mean with no treatment at all, no limiter etc. .I can bounce this part tomorrow.
Old 1 week ago
  #37
Lives for gear
 

didn't get to hear the new file yet - will get back to you (if still needed)...

my question about alignment, dynamics and efx was aiming at the spot mics: the combined use of these tools will get you closer to what a mic would sound if positioned further away: compressor to level out what some air does, efx to compensate different early reflection pickup from spot mics compared to mains (use a room without much early reflections on the spots) and time alignment to counteract the somewhat rushed phrasing and the short distance from the singer to the spots: i might even try to align the vocals further back, to the position of the harpsicord (possibly the best timing reference due to its sound with lots of attack) - and of course a dynamic eq could also be used...
Old 1 week ago
  #38
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RFrommann View Post
You mean with no treatment at all, no limiter etc. .I can bounce this part tomorrow.
Sounds peaky at 5k
Old 1 week ago
  #39
Gear Nut
 

Hi
for Mathieu and everybody else who is interested to hear only the AB with the Schoeps MK2 with absolutely no treatment. Maybe I messed it all up with just too much plugins ?

Thanks for all your input already. Much appreciated.
Attached Files
Old 1 week ago
  #40
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFrommann View Post
Hi
for Mathieu and everybody else who is interested to hear only the AB with the Schoeps MK2 with absolutely no treatment. Maybe I messed it all up with just too much plugins ?

Thanks for all your input already. Much appreciated.
Much more relaxed and natural sounding than mix 10-3-19 ...it feels like it has left the IMAX movie theatre and has now been transported to a nice concert hall.
Old 1 week ago
  #41
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
I definitely prefer the 'unplug-in-ed' sound of the 11-3-19 version.
Old 1 week ago
  #42
Gear Nut
 

thanks deedeeyeah, studer58 and jimjazzdad and all others for opening my eyes (ears) that I went into the wrong direction.
I made a new mix, trying to keep the atmosphere of the Mainpair and adding only slightly the spotmics of the vocalist plus some treatment (reverb, EQ,bus compressor). I got rid of some of the plugins in the mainbus. I hope I am on a better track now.
Attached Files
Old 1 week ago
  #43
Lives for gear
I definitely prefer the A-B with no treatment.
Even in your last mix there is some saturation of the sound.

But the real question is : Why ?
Why do you want to add Eq and compression ? For you what is wrong in the original recording ?
Why using topnotch mics (Schoeps) if then you completely remove their very good sound with some unnatural treatments ?

And yes some baroque recordings use compression but compression on classical music have to be under control. Here it's not.
Old 1 week ago
  #44
Gear Nut
 

Thanks for your opinion Mathieu

When I listen to the raw tracks, I think they don't sound finished. Difficult to describe.
In general, there can be different reasons for me to use Eq: resonances in the room, build up of frequencies in the low mids , too thin sound, not enough air, sweetening the string sound etc. And some very slight compression for some glue. But I am glad that I can get a feedback here and hopefully learn something out of it.
I will try a new approach and start from scratch.
Old 1 week ago
  #45
Lives for gear
 

i think it's next to impossible to walk/talk someone through a mixing process based on some clips/without tons of information on the whole setup or actually without sitting down with someone, so i will not further comment on clips (btw: maybe better start you own thread?)

there is something i'd like to encourage you though: do not listen to the traditionalist who keep repeating that one should not apply any processing on tracks which were recorded with good mics/pres/converters in a nice room... of course that's what we all (mostly) do, but it's no guarantee that one cannot improve on the tracks! imo it's nonesense to think of any tracks to be pure/as close to the original as standing in the room (and even if so: what position then?): there's always technique/gear involved and the way it got applied already had an effect on the way in and one may want to alter/enhance on that.

so: tweak until it sounds right! use recordings you like to compare with, no matter what technique/gear was used (which you will want to find out) to achieve this desirable sound - you may get to the point where some tracks don't need much or any tweaking; if so, consider yourself lucky! it will change though on a next recording, in another venue, under different conditions.

with lots of experience, you will (hopefully) come closer to a process that needs less alteration and time on any level (setup/recording/mixing) - until then, keep tweaking (maybe a bit less on the mains, but certainly on spots and not too much on the mix): the magic comes with the mixing...

all the best!

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 1 week ago at 10:33 AM.. Reason: edited for clarification
Old 1 week ago
  #46
Lives for gear
look at the 2 sets of displays for audio files: 10/3/19 and 11/3/19

The waveforms show big differences not just in average volumes (about 10dB) but in spectral content also. I'm guessing your initial processing was generating or emphasizing harmonic content, as well as compressing, as the files' true peaks were differing about 6dB also.

All of these things have big effects on the perceived content of the music...and you need to consider the impact of all processing (in sequence, as a total process) on the final sound.
Attached Thumbnails
Recording Angle  Williams/ Neumann App-10.3.19-average-loudness.jpg   Recording Angle  Williams/ Neumann App-10.3.19-spectral.jpg   Recording Angle  Williams/ Neumann App-10.3.19-waveform.jpg   Recording Angle  Williams/ Neumann App-11.3.19-average-loudness.jpg   Recording Angle  Williams/ Neumann App-11.3.19-spectral.jpg  

Recording Angle  Williams/ Neumann App-11.3.19-waveform.jpg  

Last edited by studer58; 1 week ago at 02:28 PM..
Old 1 week ago
  #47
Gear Nut
 

hi
thank you Deedeeyeah for your clear words. You are absolutely right. Even if I would like to have one of the experienced sound engineers sitting next to me, I have to find my way here alone.
Nevertheless, I am grateful for all comments on my recording. They have led me to deal even more intensively with the material and to ask myself even more seriously which sound I would like to achieve.
As a small addition: I sent the conductor a mix of the piece by having only one limiter in the masterbus, nothing else. His reaction was clear. He found it terrible. He said that if it had sounded like this in concert, he would have tried to achieve a different balance between orchestra and vocals. I think my vision is somewhere in the middle. But I'm happy to be able to think more about what I want to achieve with each plugin. And not simply stereotypically fill the Masterbus with plugins.
Thanks also to Studer58 for the analysis of the clips. That's exactly how it was.
Now I will continue to work on the material and hopefully learn a lot.
Old 1 week ago
  #48
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFrommann View Post
hi
thank you Deedeeyeah for your clear words. You are absolutely right. Even if I would like to have one of the experienced sound engineers sitting next to me, I have to find my way here alone.
Nevertheless, I am grateful for all comments on my recording. They have led me to deal even more intensively with the material and to ask myself even more seriously which sound I would like to achieve.
As a small addition: I sent the conductor a mix of the piece by having only one limiter in the masterbus, nothing else. His reaction was clear. He found it terrible. He said that if it had sounded like this in concert, he would have tried to achieve a different balance between orchestra and vocals. I think my vision is somewhere in the middle. But I'm happy to be able to think more about what I want to achieve with each plugin. And not simply stereotypically fill the Masterbus with plugins.
Thanks also to Studer58 for the analysis of the clips. That's exactly how it was.
Now I will continue to work on the material and hopefully learn a lot.
Yes, imagine you are in a well- stocked kitchen, surrounded by every flavour of exotic spice, herbs, sauces, essences that could conceivably be used in cooking. However, your job assigned to you today in that kitchen is to simply bake bread. So....what are you going to avoid (ie not use) while in the kitchen !
Old 1 week ago
  #49
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Yes, imagine you are in a well- stocked kitchen, surrounded by every flavour of exotic spice, herbs, sauces, essences that could conceivably be used in cooking. However, your job assigned to you today in that kitchen is to simply bake bread. So....what are you going to avoid (ie not use) while in the kitchen !
at least one hungry boarder obviously was not very pleased with a simple recipe, so what are you going to do? maybe add some spices (delay, eq, dynamics, efx)! could be it was the temperature (limiter) though - anyway, the magic comes from the baking (mixing) of all ingredients, don't try to sell raw dough (tracks)!
Old 1 week ago
  #50
I also had a similar balance problem with small string section and a solo piccolo trumpet and an altus.

I had a main pair + hall pair (useless bc of bad acoustic)
stereo spots on trp and altus,
spots on double bass and altos.

in reality you need the string spots more than on the soloists,
because the soloists stand closer to the main pair with a very small orchestra.

I think in your main pair only the strings sound already to distant, and
your soloist needs almost no spot.

I will try a decca tree behind the solist plus string spots next time instead of AB.
Old 1 week ago
  #51
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFrommann View Post
thanks for chiming in deedeeyeah,

the sound of the vocalist was indeed a little problem in postproduction. Although I was very careful with the level, the vocals quickly sounded a bit hard and cutting. I tried to get them a little softer with some compression, a very short reverb and delay. Also, I might have put the spots a bit too high the mix . Some weaknesses, especially the timing, are certainly due to the performance.
I have changed the mix a bit and am curious whether it has become better for other listeners. Question is, how can I add a sound file to my post?
reverb: how many milliseconds of predelay? maybe you want a reverb without
early reflections.

spot mike: I use tube LDC on sopranos. ribbons work too, in my only experience with altus, the ribbon sounded distorted, even though I was nowhere near OdBFS
Old 1 week ago
  #52
Gear Addict
 

I think it's useful in this conversation to keep in mind the different roles of pre-production, production, and post-production.

My personal preference is always to get the best sounding, most authentic capture I can when recording, which hinges heavily on pre planning and executing well on the day of the event. In my ideal world, a single stereo pair would capture a perfect balance, and post production would be nothing more than a few edits. At heart, I'm a minimalist.

However, reality doesn't always match expectations. Once the recording phase is through, there's no point sticking to my idealistic notions and refusing to fix things that don't sound right. If I need to use EQ, dynamics, reverb etc. to make it sound like it should've in the first place, so be it. Any time that happens, I try to learn what I could've done differently in order to get the raw capture to sound the way I want next time, but there's no law that says I shouldn't fix what I can on the existing recording.

Admittedly, I still prefer to keep such changes minimal, the least amount of processing possible to achieve the right sound, but I don't want an anti-processing bias to keep me from making music sound good.

I hope no-one on the current thread takes this as a personal attack, or a straw-man argument. I'm not claiming anyone here was draconian or unreasonable. It's just that on these forums in general (not just this thread,) I've seen time and time again where people try to discuss what they can do to improve a recording in post, and they get shut down and told to just record it right the first time. Recording it right the first time is a laudable goal, and we should always be striving towards that, but that doesn't have to mean doing nothing to improve the existing recording in post production.
Old 5 days ago
  #53
Gear Nut
 
Simmosonic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick View Post
Newbies should still study the "Stereophonic Zoom" papers dilligently, not so much for the charts, but to understand how stereo pairs actually work and how to adjust them to get the sonic presentation that's desired.
Absolutely! That was the biggest take-away for me from studying his papers (not the only take-away, but the biggest). It made me realise that all these techniques we hold dear (ORTF, NOS, DIN, AB50, etc.) are really just presets within a huge variety of possibilities and variables. These days I enjoy customising the technique on the spot for the job - I was never one for using presets of any kind!
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