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Mid-Side Mic for Nature Recording (all-in-one) Condenser Microphones
Old 28th January 2019
  #31
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whippoorwill's Avatar
oooh a figure 8 fight, I'll go - the sennheiser mkh30 bass switch turns the bass boost off.
Old 28th January 2019
  #32
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Well, thanks to a fellow Gearslutz, I have tried both the Schoeps MK8 and the Sennheiser MKH30 as "S" mic in MS pairs and damned if I heard any difference in mid-side symmetry between those capsules. Maybe that's because the MKH30 MS pair was arranged side-by-side "à la Rolo 46" thus perfectly mimicking the MK8 asymmetry...

(I'm assuming the CCM8 capsule has the same characteristics as the MK8?)

Last edited by jimjazzdad; 28th January 2019 at 12:35 PM..
Old 28th January 2019
  #33
Gear Nut
 

MS combo mics generally have higher noise floor than separates, particularly on the side capsule.

I never tried the Shure VP88 but it gets rave reviews. Here's a nature example: YouTube

The Pearl MS mics are mostly special order. They're lower noise than the Shure on paper, but paper specs aren't always reliable. The other issue is the 28mm diameter. I don't think there's a slip-on windjammer that fits. Rycote does make a mini windjammer for the VP88.
Old 28th January 2019
  #34
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by whippoorwill View Post
oooh a figure 8 fight, I'll go - the sennheiser mkh30 bass switch turns the bass boost off.
I would say that this is an incorrect description of the MKH 30.

The symmetrical MKH microphones have a tailored electrical response that is the converse of the lightly damped capsule response to give a flat overall frequency response.

What you said implies that the microphone has a response different to what it has.

The bass switch changes the electrical response to give a clean bass roll-off.

There are several papers on line which explain all this.
Old 28th January 2019
  #35
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by jscomposer View Post
MS combo mics generally have higher noise floor than separates, particularly on the side capsule.
This is because most people make a figure-8 from back-to-back cardioids, rather than having a single diaphragm.

The single diaphragm capacitor fig-8s are:-
Sennheiser MKH 30 - truly symmetrical with active front plate
Neumann KK 120 - truly symmetrical with passive front plate
Schoeps MK8, CCM8, etc. - no front plate which means that the rear lobe has a slightly different plot (shows in the 16kHz response)
MBHO KA 800 - no front plate which means that the rear lobe has a slightly different plot
Ambient ATE 208 "Emesser" - no front plate which means that the rear lobe has a slightly different plot

These are the only single diaphragm figure-8 microphones I know of.

If you compare the Schoeps and Neumann polar-patterns you will see that the Schoeps has a much nicer front response than the Neumann and that the rear anomolies on the Neumann are mirrored on the front because of the front plate.

Personally, I have a pair of the MKH 30 and also an Ambient ATE208.
Old 28th January 2019
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
Personally, I have a pair of the MKH 30 and also an Ambient ATE208.
John, how do you like the Emesser? As I noted on a related thread, I've been considering one to clip onto my MKH 8060 so I can quickly alternate between interviews and capturing ambient sounds or music (in the context of shooting video using a separate audio recorder). I already have a Rycote blimp for the 8060. I also have an MKH 8050 that could work but it is of course a much smaller mic and am not sure it's long enough to clip the Emesser to it, and for outdoor interviews the 8060 is likely the better choice.
Old 28th January 2019
  #37
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradh View Post
John, how do you like the Emesser? As I noted on a related thread, I've been considering one to clip onto my MKH 8060 so I can quickly alternate between interviews and capturing ambient sounds or music (in the context of shooting video using a separate audio recorder). I already have a Rycote blimp for the 8060. I also have an MKH 8050 that could work but it is of course a much smaller mic and am not sure it's long enough to clip the Emesser to it, and for outdoor interviews the 8060 is likely the better choice.
It's a nice and relatively inexpensive single-diaphragm fig-8.

I got it so I can use it with my MKH 8040 where I have to have a tiny rig and was inexpensive enough until Sennheiser bring out the, very much delayed, 8030.

I have not actually used it very much as I tend to mostly use my MKH 30.

But I think it is the most inexpensive single-diaphragm fig-8. It is an OEM bade for Ambient by MBHO, and I think the specs are pretty much identical to the MBHO.
Old 28th January 2019
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post

But I think it is the most inexpensive single-diaphragm fig-8. It is an OEM bade for Ambient by MBHO, and I think the specs are pretty much identical to the MBHO.
Thanks. It seems like a reasonable (and certainly cost-effective) solution for my audio-for-video (short documentary) needs, where I typically have very little setup time and need to be able to move quickly from interviews to capturing ambient sound or music.
Old 28th January 2019
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
But I think it is the most inexpensive single-diaphragm fig-8.
Sometimes - and it will depend on where you are - the single-diaphragm AKG CK94 is cheaper even with the SE300B (that's certainly the case in the UK at the moment), and to my ears sounds nicer/quieter: Suso Ramallo posted some nature recording comparisons MS by Suso Ramallo | Free Listening on SoundCloud

Cheers,

Roland
Old 28th January 2019
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 View Post
Sometimes - and it will depend on where you are - the single-diaphragm AKG CK94 is cheaper even with the SE300B (that's certainly the case in the UK at the moment), and to my ears sounds nicer/quieter: Suso Ramallo posted some nature recording comparisons MS by Suso Ramallo | Free Listening on SoundCloud

Cheers,

Roland
I was going to mention the CK94 if no-one else did. I was also under the impression it was single diaphragm, and I think it sounds good, although I haven't had a chance to compare it to any of the others.

That said, it's probably a moot point for the thread starter, who said cost is no object and recordings will often take place in a rainforest. Seems like the Sennheiser is the obvious choice in this situation.
Old 28th January 2019
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebeowulf17 View Post
That said, it's probably a moot point for the thread starter, who said cost is no object and recordings will often take place in a rainforest. Seems like the Sennheiser is the obvious choice in this situation.
I agree: there's no contest with that use and budget!

R
Old 29th January 2019
  #42
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebeowulf17 View Post
That said, it's probably a moot point for the thread starter, who said cost is no object and recordings will often take place in a rainforest. Seems like the Sennheiser is the obvious choice in this situation.
This is true - for the OP a Sennheiser MKH 40/30 or 50/30 rig would definitely be the best option.
Old 4th February 2019
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
Be a Pro, do it properly
MKH 30/40
Full Rycote
Dont arse about with toys....
Agreed. So I highly recommend a Cinela mount for MS. It's the best.
Quieter than the Cyclone in terms of handling noise which is essential for a huge setup like the MKH40+30.
The Cyclone is a heavy beast too.

I had a Rycote before, the Cinela is a different league.
Old 19th February 2019
  #44
TJP
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Just my 2cents. I own a MKH 8040 ORTF array, a MKH 418s and a MKH 8050/30 combo. Im about to get a telinga+8020 for single entities. Another secret weapon of mine has been two LCT 540 S in ORTF. The sound and self noise is the best for nature ambience recording I could come up with. Throughout this year I'm also planning to build a 5.0 Williams tree array with 5 MKH 8020ties that are evenly spread with adjustable arm lengths of 80 cm, 1m, 1,2m.

The thing with the MKH 418s is not that its a bad mic. Just don't record quiet stuff with it. Documentaries, Sport events, explosions or gun recordings are great use scenarios for that mic.

you might check out this fig-8 too: Kortwich Mikrofo Acht-Kortwich-Acht-Kort

So my recommendation would be a MKH 8050 + MKH 30 inside a Cinela Z-MINIX-8000 (ask for a MS solution and let them know you need a pistol grip too).

Last edited by TJP; 19th February 2019 at 01:03 PM..
Old 19th February 2019
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TJP View Post
you might check out this fig-8 too: Kortwich Mikrofo Acht-Kortwich-Acht-Kort.
I can't figure out what it is.....looks like a T-junction black PVC pipe joiner, with a penicillin capsule glued to the front ? Very expensive plumbing hardware ...
Old 20th February 2019
  #46
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJP View Post
you might check out this fig-8 too: Kortwich Mikrofo Acht-Kortwich-Acht-Kort
Looks horrible to me.

Two cardioid capsules back-to-back with a huge separation distance.

For back-to-back cardioids, the diaphragms need to be as close together as possible.

The best are the mics that use the Georg Neumann M7 capsule (like the Gefell UMT 70S, etc.) as that has a single backplate and the diaphragms are therefore closer than those that use two separated capsules joined (like the Neumann U87).

But that mic. seems to have the capsules very far apart.
Old 20th February 2019
  #47
TJP
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TJP's Avatar
Kortwich is a renown Film Sound equipment seller with lots of good products. Just thought I throw that fig-8 mic in here
Old 1 week ago
  #48
Gear Head
 

I should weigh in. We went with the Sennheiser 30/40 rig with a Cinella blimp. We got back from a week session in rural Washington State. Both my boss and I were EXTREMELY impressed with the results, a whole different league from our AudioTechnica BP4025... you may see those on craigslist soon.

Cinella was a good decision, much more versatile, smaller, and better designed than the Rycote, IMO. The optional "Kelly" is a fantastic rain cover. I went out, bought some similar material and made "umbrellas" for my smaller mic rigs. Large-cell foam is a magical material.

But ya know what also surprised the heck outta us? We bought a bunch of cheap Zoom H2n's before the trip as backups and to get different angles. We had them on these cheap-but-slick Manfrotto mini tripods, and we were very surprised at how good they were! Not in the same league as the Senn rig, and obviously falls apart in wind and rain, but we actually preferred it to the AT4025!

Anyways, just wanted to thank you all on all the info. My boss is ordering me a second 30/40 Cinella kit that should arrive in a week or so. I even had a hero moment using the Senn rig on a boompole perched on a rock out over raging breakers! Scared the crap outta my boss, but I think I got an amazing recording. Fun Times!

Patagonia next year.
Old 1 week ago
  #49
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jnorman's Avatar
I believe the B9 audio cm180 is a single diaphragm fig 8 condenser.
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