The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Tags: , , ,

New Sony PCM-D10 Recorders, Players & Tape Machines
Old 22nd January 2019
  #1
Lives for gear
New Sony PCM-D10 with XLR inputs!

Is this a replacement for the D100? A cursory scan of the specs and here’s my quick takeaway:
  • This big news is XLR inputs with P48 power!
  • PCM only, up to 24/192
  • No DSD support!
  • No more digital I/O in the 3.5mm line in/out jacks (bummer, this was a useful feature)
  • Mono mode (L channel to R&L)
  • Powered by 4 AA batteries or USB-C
  • Independent analog gain controls
  • Remote app control via Bluetooth
  • Wireless audio via Bluetooth
  • Improved headphone amp
  • Apparently mounts as a storage device when connected to USB-C, just as the D100. Unclear whether it can be used as an interface as well.
  • Sony Disclaimer: Not intended as a replacement for the Nagra Seven.

D10 Linear PCM-Recorder D Series | PCM-D10 | Sony MY

Last edited by bwanajim; 23rd January 2019 at 12:47 AM..
Old 23rd January 2019
  #2
AB3
Lives for gear
 

Mic inputs with 48V seems to be a big selling point. I wonder how good the mic pres are?
Old 23rd January 2019
  #3
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by AB3 View Post
Mic inputs with 48V seems to be a big selling point. I wonder how good the mic pres are?
I wonder how long [email protected] will last ? Hopefully there will be a capability to connect an external battery pack....otherwise, why build such an Achilles heel flaw in from Day 1 ?
Old 23rd January 2019
  #4
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
I wonder how long [email protected] will last ? Hopefully there will be a capability to connect an external battery pack....otherwise, why build such an Achilles heel flaw in from Day 1 ?
The manual claims 6 hours recording time with phantom on, using ordinary alkalines. This could possibly improve with rechargeable Eneloops.

An online review here...

Sony PCM-D10 portable audio recorder coming this spring for $500 - Liliputing

...says the D10 can “connect an external battery pack (or wall jack)”, but there’s nothing in the manual about that. It would be nuts for Sony not to build in that capability.
Old 23rd January 2019
  #5
Lives for gear
The phantom capability time might vary, depending on how power hungry the particular external condensor mics might be...it's far from a 'fixed constant' across various brands of mic.

Power is a big issue for more complex recorders like the SD MixPre series and Zoom F recorders....but seems to be less so for this one.

Still.... worthwhile confirming that power is safely taken care of for the intended use...and then move on to reviewing other aspects of its performance.
Old 25th January 2019
  #6
Lives for gear
 
JamesClark1991's Avatar
They would be mad not to include power via USB-C powerbank. If I remember my Zoom H6 correctly (sold it) 4xAA batteries last about 40mins with one XLR channel of phantom or about 25mins with two XLR phantom channels.

I was actually really hoping Zoom would release an updated handy recorder with quieter pre-amps and USB-C connectivity at NAMM but now Sony have swooped in randomly and seemed to have hit the nail on the head mostly. (Although I still think an Updated Zoom H5/6 would rival if not surpass this recorder).

If anyone catches any reviews or gets a hands on be sure to let us know what you think :-)
Old 25th January 2019
  #7
Lives for gear
I'd seek out reviews of the Sony's phantom current supply capacity and compare these with the phantom current draw of your mics...there's a big difference between battery life of 25-40 mins and 6 hours, as mentioned in above posts.

Phantom current draw is a real thing, and is anything but consistent across all mics.

For proof, compare the following, in a review of some older CAD models in Sound On Sound magazine. While the cautions are levelled at mixing desks' ability to supply adequate phantom supply for several mics used simultaneously...obviously the ramifications for hand-held recorders on AA operation are clear as well ?

"The M177 and M179 require phantom power between 24V and 48V (although some CAD literature suggests they can accommodate 52V supplies as well), but with a whopping 8mA supply current! This is well over twice what most other condenser mics require. The Sennheiser MKH80 and AKG C414 require only 3mA and the Neumann U87 a mere 0.8mA, for example. High supply current can cause problems in badly designed equipment, or where poor-quality mic cables are being used, because of voltage losses. If a lot of current is drawn from a poor phantom power supply, its output voltage is likely to sag below the nominal 48V, making it more likely that the microphones will lack headroom and suffer transient distortion. It is also possible that, even if the CAD mics don't suffer as the phantom voltage droops, other mics powered from the same supply may be affected — something to watch out for when using a full complement of mics on a mixer with a small power supply. Also, the inherent resistance of mic cables means that the greater the current flowing, the more phantom voltage is lost in the cable itself, with the same end results.

Although I didn't experience any obvious problems testing these mics with a range of mic preamps with internal phantom supplies, I was careful to use good-quality mic cables and to keep cable runs as short as possible. In general I would be very wary of using large numbers of high-current mics together, powered from the same supply, or at the ends of long cable runs"

Can of worms, eh ?
Old 25th January 2019
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Plush's Avatar
Just another shaver. . .

Good for casual pick ups.
Old 28th January 2019
  #9
Lives for gear
 
DirkP's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesClark1991 View Post
They would be mad not to include power via USB-C powerbank. If I remember my Zoom H6 correctly (sold it) 4xAA batteries last about 40mins with one XLR channel of phantom or about 25mins with two XLR phantom channels.

I was actually really hoping Zoom would release an updated handy recorder with quieter pre-amps and USB-C connectivity at NAMM but now Sony have swooped in randomly and seemed to have hit the nail on the head mostly. (Although I still think an Updated Zoom H5/6 would rival if not surpass this recorder).

If anyone catches any reviews or gets a hands on be sure to let us know what you think :-)
But you can power the H6 with a powerbank, so where is the problem? It's just a different cable. I guess I've recorded more than 10 hours with a set of Eneloops and can't imagine with phantom power it would stop after 40 minutes.
Old 30th January 2019
  #10
DAH
Lives for gear
 
DAH's Avatar
No XY as well. A cut-down version of D100?
Old 30th January 2019
  #11
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DAH View Post
No XY as well. A cut-down version of D100?
XY is there. From the website:

"Record anytime, anywhere with 3-way built-in mics
No external mic? No problem. The PCM-D10 comes with three-way adjustable built-in mics with low noise and a wide frequency range, so you’re always ready to capture impeccable sound. And with three recording positions, you can adapt to your situation. Choose XY for music performances, zoom for interviews and discussions, or wide stereo for open and outdoor spaces."
Old 1st March 2019
  #12
Here for the gear
 

The big thing nobody mentioned yet, will the internal mics be as good as the D100 !

D100 is most definitely not a shaver, very nice sound, in fact the only good sound I've heard from internal mics on a portable recorder, all the rest sound like needles in the ears, toppy modern rubbish, let's hope, no biggie if not, I'll just keep the lovely D100 .
Old 2nd March 2019
  #13
Gear Addict
 
jayfield's Avatar
 

I have the Sony PCM M10--waiting for reviews on PCM-D10

I did a lot of homework a few years back for the quietest handhleld. I ended up with the PCM M10. It was very good for most things except quiet Soundscapes. Pretty kool little unit almost as small as an iPhone. Here's some thoughts. Can't find any specs yet

Creative Field Recording | capturing evocative sound effects worldwide

Last edited by jayfield; 2nd March 2019 at 07:57 PM..
Old 2nd March 2019
  #14
Gear Addict
 
jayfield's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Just another shaver. . .

Good for casual pick ups.
You may be correct but I'm sure hoping it's better than that!

I believe Sony must have researched and developed enough technology to give consumers extremely quiet mics and pre-amps. If they've taken this product to the next level, at 500 scoots they could pretty much corner the market from the other hand-held competitors. After all, weren't they at the forefront of digital recording, and small audio devices?


Converters I'm sure will be ace

"Capture flawless sound with dual ADCs
Combining two top-of-the-line AK4558 A/D D/A converters with our own high-quality technology, the PCM-D10 raises the bar for your recordings. The dual AK4558 converters work in tandem to maximise S/N and allow you to capture flawless sound at up to 192kHz"

The fact that they claim to be quieter than the previous D100, and now with XLR inputs. I'm sold already.
Put my PCM M10 up for sale

Will post review when i can get the unit.
Old 3rd March 2019
  #15
Here for the gear
 

Pre-Recording Yes

'Pre-Recording Yes' is all Sony says in the specs, it's not even listed as a main feature.
I assume it's the usual Sony five seconds of pre-roll, although Sony doesn't say. Five seconds is a decent amount.
Incredibly useful for me if you're waiting to record an intermittent event which I often am, especially with bluetooth remote control.
Anyone else find this very useful?
Old 3rd March 2019
  #16
Gear Addict
 
jayfield's Avatar
 

Removing Noise from hand-held recorders with Izotope RX7

Generally my PCM m10 is relatively quiet. Until I am trying to record a nature soundscape. Something like when I'm in the Canadian wilderness, and recording birds waking up in the morning with no other background noise Then I hear an un-acceptable noise floor. I'm not sure if this is the mic quality or the pre-amps.

On the Naam video when the PCM D-10 was debuted, the rep mentions that a lot of effort was spent on developing new microphones. They seem to be attempting to bring down the signal to noise. Sony most certainly has the capability to offer a very pro-level small recorder. The question remains how pro are they prepared to make it for 499 bucks.

That being said it would make sense that the D-100 at $700 will likely be discontinued. The only thing it seems to have over the D-10's new mics and converters, is more internal ram.

Finally I have tried to remove the noise that is picked up when recording quiet sources. Mostly using the Spectral noise and De-noise from Izotope RX. Not too effective for this task. Could be me though. Has anybody had success with maintaining the integrity of quiet recordings and using these plug-ins?
Old 3rd March 2019
  #17
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayfield View Post
That being said it would make sense that the D-100 at $700 will likely be discontinued. The only thing it seems to have over the D-10's new mics and converters, is more internal ram.
The D100 can record DSD which the D10 cannot do...and it's head and shoulders above the M10. It even outperforms the Nagra SD in my opinion....and yes, I did record and listen to both machines side by side, this was one of the reasons I got the sony which was actually more expensive.

There is probably a good reason why it's more expensive than the D10.

Last edited by Samc; 3rd March 2019 at 06:29 PM..
Old 3rd March 2019
  #18
Gear Addict
 
jayfield's Avatar
 

You are correct. The D-100 has more quality, features, and a lower noise floor. than the M-10.
But still not satisfactory for Soundscape recording, which is one option I would like to have when hiking.

Their inherent noise from the mics and pre-amps in "handhelds" is why professional Soundscape recorders use gear such as Sound Devices, Schoeps and Sennheiser RF MKH series mikes. Getting the quietness/quality level I wish to have costs about $4,000 to start. The problem is its not very portable.

I may be very well just be dreaming hoping that this new Sony offering, will be able to get close to pro outdoor setups.

The reason I went with the PCM10, years before the D-100 came out, was because the other brands were not nearly as good. It sufficed well for recording music rehearsals, and made a kick-ass "walkman". I even snuck it into a Keith Jarrett concert once and got quite a respectable recording. "Me bad!"
Old 3rd March 2019
  #19
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayfield View Post
Their inherent noise from the mics and pre-amps in "handhelds" is why professional Soundscape recorders use gear such as Sound Devices, Schoeps and Sennheiser RF MKH series mikes. Getting the quietness/quality level I wish to have costs about $4,000 to start. The problem is its not very portable.
The problem is not caused by the quality of the mic and/or mic-pre the noise is more likely caused by handling noise. Use a good, small battery powered mic-amp and your choice of microphones with the D100 can solve the problem for a lot less than $4000.
Old 3rd March 2019
  #20
Gear Addict
 
jayfield's Avatar
 

My M10 noise is most definitely coming from the mics and pres. I know this because I have a small gorilla tripod that isolates any direct handling. Hey most situations its not bad. Take your D-100 out into the backwoods, many miles away from ambient traffic. Try and capture some birds in the background. Thats noise you will hear is from the unit. I'll stake my girlfriend on it. "Jokes yo" Bad Joke!

You are correct again. It can be done for less that 4,000.
But all depending on the quality of recording one wants.
Even some $1,000 plus mics have audible noise
when trying to capture a quiet soundscape. And thats going into an SD Mix-Pre 3 with very low distortion/high gain pre-amps. Also stereo would require 2 mics, and wind protection, (Blimp, Windjammer etc.)

This is the my definition of quiet soundscapes. Put on your best headphones and scroll down to the first audio clip:

Sennheiser MKH20 | HLJODMYND - SOUNDIMAGE


Okay thats the ultimate I've heard. Probably not achievable in the foreseeable future buy a handheld though.
But, I'm still searching for a quieter solution than the current small portables.

The BP 4025 stereo mic is quiet and reasonable for Nature sounds but not so good for music recording.
I realized if I was to go for a truly high end "virtually noiseless" setup, the mics would need to be 10dB equivalent noise level. That limits many microphones that are suitable for outdoor scenarios.

Sadly, my requirements would be very expensive and not so portable.

I'm pretty sure that Sony is aware that their current portable recorders are noisier (in some situations) than some folks, such as myself, would like.
Their promo on the Sony site, and the interview with the Sony Naam rep, mentions 3 different ways they have lowered the noise floor.
Makes me conclude they are attempting to make these devices quieter.

Hey, that's okay by me!

"I'm going in coach"

Last edited by jayfield; 3rd March 2019 at 07:42 PM..
Old 6th March 2019
  #21
Gear Addict
 
jayfield's Avatar
 

Review of pcm-d10

Quite disappointed.

Scroll down link for review by a respected site.

He comments that the new unit is actually noisier then the D-100

Handheld recorder review and comparison — Mindful Audio
Old 6th March 2019
  #22
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jayfield View Post
Scroll down link for review by a respected site.
"When using the XLR inputs, the D10 is noisier than the Sound Devices Mixpre 10T or 633 recorders. Granted, these are recorders with more features and in different price categories, but it still is a bit disappointing."

The guy buys a $500 recorder and is disappointed that it does not have the same performance as a couple of Sound Devices boxes that are more than 3 and almost 7 times it's cost?!? Respected indeed.
Old 8th March 2019
  #23
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
"When using the XLR inputs, the D10 is noisier than the Sound Devices Mixpre 10T or 633 recorders. Granted, these are recorders with more features and in different price categories, but it still is a bit disappointing."

The guy buys a $500 recorder and is disappointed that it does not have the same performance as a couple of Sound Devices boxes that are more than 3 and almost 7 times it's cost?!? Respected indeed.
Right, so the reason I compared it with the two recorders in question is because that's what I had on hand. It's also what a lot of the folks I know work with so it provides an easy benchmark.

One other thing: the Kashmir preamps in the 10T can also be found on the cheaper Mixpre 3 and 6 so in the end I think it's not a 100% unfair comparison.

At any rate, do let me know what you'd like me to test the D10 against and I'll try to do it after my next field recording trip.
Old 8th March 2019
  #24
Gear Addict
Given it has the same ADC, how would it compare to the Tascam DR100.mk3?
Old 11th March 2019
  #25
Here for the gear
 

I'm not sure. I haven't had a chance to test any Tascam units but I'll do so in the near future.
Old 11th March 2019
  #26
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeVlad View Post
At any rate, do let me know what you'd like me to test the D10 against and I'll try to do it after my next field recording trip.
You should compare it to machines in the same category and price range...the people who need/want a $3,300 multitrack recorder are not looking at this box and visa versa.

You can't buy a Toyota family sedan and claim disappointment because it does not perform like a Ferrari sports car....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #27
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
You should compare it to machines in the same category and price range...the people who need/want a $3,300 multitrack recorder are not looking at this box and visa versa.

You can't buy a Toyota family sedan and claim disappointment because it does not perform like a Ferrari sports car....
Same market/price point reviews are good but not the only useful type review. It is interesting to me at least to get an idea of where devices sit in the hierarchy of possible purchases. Not everyone has a lot of money so as a total purchase one must make compromises across all aspects of gear. By seeing where something sits in the best to worst order it becomes easier to decide how to allocate money across all the different gear one needs.

For me a Tascam DR-100mk3 or the not quite as good Sony M10 is easily good enough and it is not worth spending $1000 or so more to get something better - but perhaps not discernibly better in the context of the work I do. It is better for me to invest that money into different types of microphones. Which I have done and continue to do.

Last edited by gregh; 4 weeks ago at 06:41 AM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #28
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregh View Post
Same market/price point reviews are good but not the only useful type review. It is interesting to me at least to get an idea of where devices sit in the hierarchy of possible purchases. Not everyone has a lot of money so as a total purchase one must make compromises across all aspects of gear. By seeing where something sits in the best to worst order it becomes easier to decide how to allocate money across all the different gear one needs.

For me a Tascam DR-100mk3 or the not quite as good Sony M10 is easily good enough and it is not worth spending $1000 or so more to get something better - but perhaps not discernibly better in the context of the work I do. It is better for me to invest that money into different types of microphones. Which I have done and continue to do.
If you're looking for a compact $500, two track recorder what good does a comparison to a physically bigger, multitrack machine that cost 7 times more and offers a bunch of features that you do not need/want do for you pray tell...?

Doesn't a comparison to other machines in the same category that are more likely to fit your needs more useful...when you go to buy a $30,000 family car are you interested in how it stacks up against a Koenigsegg One thats worth over seven figures and which you will never buy? Or do you want to hear how it stacks up against other similar family cars that give good mileage, will carry all the kids to school and to the beach etc?

The preamps are not as quiet as those on the Nagra VII tells you nothing about the suitability of the preamps for your situation...The person who needs/wants a Nagra is not looking at this machine for exactly the same reasons stated above.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #29
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
If you're looking for a compact $500, two track recorder what good does a comparison to a physically bigger, multitrack machine that cost 7 times more and offers a bunch of features that you do not need/want do for you pray tell...?

Doesn't a comparison to other machines in the same category that are more likely to fit your needs more useful...when you go to buy a $30,000 family car are you interested in how it stacks up against a Koenigsegg One thats worth over seven figures and which you will never buy? Or do you want to hear how it stacks up against other similar family cars that give good mileage, will carry all the kids to school and to the beach etc?

The preamps are not as quiet as those on the Nagra VII tells you nothing about the suitability of the preamps for your situation...The person who needs/wants a Nagra is not looking at this machine for exactly the same reasons stated above.
For me it seems that both sorts of reviews have value - my question might be - shall I get the $500 recorder or is it worth the better quality to fork out $1500?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #30
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregh View Post
For me it seems that both sorts of reviews have value - my question might be - shall I get the $500 recorder or is it worth the better quality to fork out $1500?
Agreed.

Plus, I've been in plenty of situations where I've used and experienced better gear than I can afford while working in other studios or renting equipment. All those pieces of gear are potential references for comparison. I can't afford them, but they might be useful in describing gear I can afford.

One actual example for me was a mixing board. Ages ago I needed a compact mixer with EQ I could actually use (among other requirements.) I'd done lots of work on other small mixers prior to that and was constantly frustrated by worthless, non-musical EQ (Mackie, Peavey, smaller Yamaha, etc.) Numerous reviews described the A&H MixWizard EQ as having a similar style/sound/approach to some big mixers I was familiar with and liked the sound of. Sure enough, I tried one out, and I loved it. It was just what I needed. I could've just tried every small board that existed until I happened upon it, but the reviews comparing it to totally unrelated gear made my search so much easier.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
Samc / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music and Location Recording
36
Pohaku / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music and Location Recording
20
Delayeed / So much gear, so little time
2
amundsen / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music and Location Recording
2
EarlG / So much gear, so little time
2

Forum Jump
Forum Jump