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Braodcast Compressor foe Classical Dynamics Processors (HW)
Old 4 weeks ago
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
The bad news is that the 'broadcasters' over ip are applying the same processing, even where it isn't required, because they want to sound like radio.

In my public access situation, because the radio is delivered as part of a TV signal, all those loudness rules are applied. It's quite a challenge to figure out how much dynamic range is actually available.

My show often starts by telling folks to turn up the volume.
unbelievable... - over here, all gear got changed with the (much delayed) advent of dab+ (and broadcasters slowly but surely fade out their fm channels); what's possibly the same though is that the 'new' tech does not sounds significantly better although it could...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
The bad news is that the 'broadcasters' over ip are applying the same processing, even where it isn't required, because they want to sound like radio.

In my public access situation, because the radio is delivered as part of a TV signal, all those loudness rules are applied. It's quite a challenge to figure out how much dynamic range is actually available.

My show often starts by telling folks to turn up the volume.
unbelievable! over here, most any gear got changed with the (much delayed) advent of dab+ (and broadcasters slowly but surely fade out their fm distribution); what's possibly the same though is that the 'new' tech did not lead to the program sounding significantly better although it could...
('better' meaning signals getting less altered on their way from the source to the audience)
Old 4 weeks ago
  #33
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
unbelievable!
But not everyone's doing that, thank goodness. I mix a weekly live internet radio show (that then becomes an archived podcast) where the producers definitely don't want that -- they like the signal solid and reined-in but not turned inside-out like US terrestrial radio. I think it sounds great.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #34
Back to the suggestions...dbx Quantum II Quantum II | dbx Professional Audio find them on Ebay for about $750.00. FWIW

I think it is a really fine piece of equipment that is very good at doing what you need.
Old 1 week ago
  #35
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I work along side orchestra mixer Tommy Vicari for a couple of TV shows each year; the Oscars and A Capital Fourth, an annual fourth of July special with the National Symphony Orchestra. He very often brings an SSL G Stereo Bus Compressor to put on the back end of the digital desk we use. He's told me that he also uses this piece of hardware on most of the movie sound tracks he mixes as well.
Old 4 days ago
  #36
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i posted a pic (screenshot of a manual with settings of a broadcast limiter) in another thread...

Level riding in classical music.

(post#93)

...as i just fed a mix i'm working on through one of these devices, recorded the output back into my daw and adjusted levels for more fair comparison with an uncompressed mix; files then got converted to mp3 (yes, mp3) and sent to the musicians and the conductor of a small chamber orchestra:

out of twenty people, i'm waiting for feedback from one person, twelve preferred the compressed mix, five could not hear much of a difference and only two did prefer the uncompressed mix; both couldn't tell for what reason though.

which one do i prefer? yet another one, using tape emulation and different limiter settings - not sure i wanna bother folks with another option as in my experience, the order and the way you present results can have a big impact on how people judge results...

who will decide? the conductor, 1st violinist, soloist, the majority, me? (no producer involved, money taken out of the ensemble's annual budget for a single recording of the music they play)

finding answers to these questions imo is much more difficult than finding suitable limiter settings!
Old 4 days ago
  #37
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JCBigler's Avatar
Interesting discussion.

Is there any value for a TC Electronic DBMax Broadcast Maximizer in this modern workflow? I have one in the truck that I bought recently and was going to sell it. Now wondering if I should consider keeping it.
Old 4 days ago
  #38
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tourtelot's Avatar
Okay, I think I need to clarify a bit here.

I am not looking for a "broadcast" compressor. I am looking for suggestions for a bus compressor that I can use as the last link before my mix goes out for broadcast. Something that will allow a signal with a nice level, and not let those unexpected peaks clip the (ISDN, internet, digital) feed to the station (who will probably do what they do to the mix before they put it on air.)

A 2-bus compressor, not a multi-band, before the transmitter, radio station compressor.

I think I am going for the R22, the Neve Portico 2-bus, or a Drawmer.

I have a Compellor 320D which actually sounds pretty good to my ears for a 2-bus so I am not in a hurry.

D.
Old 3 days ago
  #39
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there are many very good analog 2-bus compressors available (neve, ssl, dbx, drawmer, crane song, focusrite, summit, tube tech etc.), a lot less multiband compressors (tube tech, drawmer, maselec and maybe a few more) and they all can get used in many various settings with great success.

personally, i prefer using digital devices (and mostly multiband dynamic tools) for a couple of reasons: imo it's not worth leaving the digital domain as one will want/need to use very decent adda converters on the 2bus - interfacing: all gear needs to get level matched in the analog domain in order not to overdrive any gear down the line; you'll possibly need to step up/attenuate signals. even then, most analog compressors/limiters are either not fast enough to catch transients and/or can still output peaks way above nominal level*. and most single band devices behave... well, like single band devices, meaning they do not show smooth behaviour on a tutti but tend to squeeze signals based on their energy if no clever sidechain filtering is getting used; some of them have some circuitry implemented, others would need an external equalizer to be fed into their side chains. finally, while i like some analog gear for its 'character'/'sound' if driven hard/thx to their transformers, tubes etc. (and the simplicity of the interface/access to functions/speed of use), i like digital gear for its 'functionality'/'transparency' without (much) introducing hard-to-control by-products - i don't care much if these devices then are intended for broadcasting or not: some gear offers more/more nuanced control but a dynamic tool is a dynamic tool and it either works or it doesn't.

(i'd keep the dbmax even if it'd be only for occasional monitoring of a dynamically processed mix or to record/output both an unaltered and a processed mix - can also get scaled in the analog domain for proper interfacing with analog gear and is quite okay if used just as a converter and/or for inserting analog gear)

* not even all digital limiters with a look-ahead function for brickwall limiting guarantee flawless performance regarding overloads: i vaguely remember reading an article by tc electronics about inter sample peaks (it's possible to get levels above 0dBfs without intentionally clipping a converter/dsp block). cannot remember though whether the article was more about dsp architecture in general, a recommendation to upsample for certain processing or especially when using their limiters...

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 3 days ago at 04:25 PM.. Reason: info added
Old 3 days ago
  #40
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tourtelot's Avatar
Okay. Thanks for the detailed thoughts.

I sorta come out of the "analog age" and my processing chain "thoughts" revolve around the old-school subs out to the compressor, compressor back into the panel, compressor channels to the main outs. All analog.

Would you be so kind, (and I am only on my first cup of coffee and my brain is filled with a particularly difficult Dante issue) to give me a quick walk through about where in my Dante chain, I could put a digital compressor?

It seems that in most of my broadcasts, the final mix needs to get changed to analog just before it hit the outgoing device, lets say the ISDN box for now. The boxes to the station have analog inputs in all the venues that I can think of right now. Hopefully, someday that will change and it should.

So even as there is tons of digital processing, lets say from just after the Grace m108 pres on, and it stays digital to the recorder, it ends up as analog into the broadcast mixer, through the analog compressor and out to the output box to the station.

As long as I am able to plug an analog signal into that station-provided box, (oh and if the outgoing signal chain is strictly 44.1k or 48k) I am able to stay digital all the way into the panel and to a Dante-analog box just before the radio-station box. Hope this makes sense so far.

And would a Dmax be an appropriate compressor to use in this case? I have lots of compressor choices in my Pro Tools but I have firmly banished Pro Tools from any location job, and hooking it up as outboard is a bad idea in any case.

But I am willing to buy a new, appropriate device, analog or digital, that will allow me to do what I ask for in the post above. That is to say, keep the signal hot enough that the station gets a good feed, to have something in place to address the occasional, unforeseen overs, a loud bass drum hit, a crescendo that is a bit hotter than expected, etc, so that I don't clip the outgoing signal. And so the station doesn't use it's sledgehammer compressor before the transmitter to tame the signal.

Blatherings from Doug.

Thanks for listening.

D.
Old 3 days ago
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
Okay. Thanks for the detailed thoughts.

I sorta come out of the "analog age" and my processing chain "thoughts" revolve around the old-school subs out to the compressor, compressor back into the panel, compressor channels to the main outs. All analog.

Would you be so kind, (and I am only on my first cup of coffee and my brain is filled with a particularly difficult Dante issue) to give me a quick walk through about where in my Dante chain, I could put a digital compressor?

It seems that in most of my broadcasts, the final mix needs to get changed to analog just before it hit the outgoing device, lets say the ISDN box for now. The boxes to the station have analog inputs in all the venues that I can think of right now. Hopefully, someday that will change and it should.

So even as there is tons of digital processing, lets say from just after the Grace m108 pres on, and it stays digital to the recorder, it ends up as analog into the broadcast mixer, through the analog compressor and out to the output box to the station.

As long as I am able to plug an analog signal into that station-provided box, (oh and if the outgoing signal chain is strictly 44.1k or 48k) I am able to stay digital all the way into the panel and to a Dante-analog box just before the radio-station box. Hope this makes sense so far.

And would a Dmax be an appropriate compressor to use in this case? I have lots of compressor choices in my Pro Tools but I have firmly banished Pro Tools from any location job, and hooking it up as outboard is a bad idea in any case.

But I am willing to buy a new, appropriate device, analog or digital, that will allow me to do what I ask for in the post above. That is to say, keep the signal hot enough that the station gets a good feed, to have something in place to address the occasional, unforeseen overs, a loud bass drum hit, a crescendo that is a bit hotter than expected, etc, so that I don't clip the outgoing signal. And so the station doesn't use it's sledgehammer compressor before the transmitter to tame the signal.

Blatherings from Doug.

Thanks for listening.

D.
does the m108 allow signals to be routed from the daw back into the unit and on to the aes outputs? if so, you could hook up a dbmax at 44/48k or a finalizer 96k (which has built-in adjustable src so you could feed in 96k and output 48k on aes/spdif and adat) and send processed audio via its analog outputs at +22dBu (or lower) to whatever analog gear the broadcaster provides.
Old 3 days ago
  #42
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I have a Junger D05 and I think it would suit this application. Added bonus of being inexpensive as it is older (if you can find one).
Old 3 days ago
  #43
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i'm with you on that!

(6 channels for surround or for inserts on channels/groups)
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Old 3 days ago
  #44
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tourtelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
does the m108 allow signals to be routed from the daw back into the unit and on to the aes outputs?
No DAW in the system. Just a JoeCo BBR64-Dante routed straight off the preamps. The panel is currently fed analog line-in off a Dante to analog device. The panel has a Dante card but it is limited to 48k max. So the panel's Dante is okay for b'cast but not in a session recording at 96k.

The m108s do have Dante inputs, so maybe a side chain with a digital compressor. It would be fussy to control, I think and would perhaps need two channels of preamps as compressor returns. I'll \look into the possibilities.

Thanks.

D.
Old 3 days ago
  #45
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inputs are clear: mics into grace into joeco (via dante) - but i'm not getting how to you are mixing your tracks; on an analog or digital desk? with what kind of outputs?

i cannot help much with dante: i got (almost) all of my gear hooked up via madi and aes (and use format converters from/to madi)
Old 3 days ago
  #46
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tourtelot's Avatar
For recording, I go, via Dante, from the m108s, directly into the JoeCo. This is typically at 24/96. That is it's own separate chain.

For broadcast, I go, via Dante, from the m108s to my Presonus panel, and then out to the station. If I work the m108s at 24/44.1 or 24/48, I can go to the panel via Dante. If the preamps and the recorder are running at 24/96, I am forced by the limitations of the Presonus panel to go 24/96 into an Aterotech uND32 Dante-to-analog device and then, analog into the Presonus and then to the station. So, except when the client wants a capture at 24/96, rarely, I can run from the preamps to the recorder and to the panel via Dante at 24/44.1 or 24/48 (mostly) and then analog out of the panel to the radio-station box in the venue Mostly I see a Zepher Telos (sorry, that's what they give us).

So typically, I have taken a submix out of the panel, analog, to the bus compressor, the R22 typically, put it back into the panel on the last two inputs, assign the masters to main out (you all know this drill I'm sure) and then to the Zepher analog in. The R22 is my boss's and I am looking to have a bus compressor in my rack for those times when we both need one at the same time. Hence this entire thread.

Some day, I hope we can stay digital from the preamps to the station, but right now, it must become analog before it travels to the station.

So at this point, is there really any need to put a digital compressor in the mix (pun intended) if an R22, or a Neve Portico, or a Drawmer fits in the scheme so easily? We are really hamstrung at this point by the transmission line from the venue to the station, and that doesn't look like it's going to change anytime soon. :(

D.
Old 3 days ago
  #47
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the presonus mixer seems to be the most limiting factor by not allowing an all 96k signal path...
with the given setup (and the broadcaster's modest requirements/gear), i'd probably grab any (analog) comp/lim of choice as well.



[sorry if i went a bit far with some of my suggestions: i'm often confronted with broadcasters not accepting anything below their rather high standards, so i have to provide a madi split from my stagebox with mic/direct outs of all channels plus both unprocessed and processed stereo and 5.1 mixes from my desk (although they do never use them) or i have to take their madi feed of all mics: some broadcasters do not even allow for splitters to be used or will not take in anyone else's digital signals...
Old 3 days ago
  #48
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tourtelot's Avatar
Yep. I have been on that side of it as well.

Thanks for your suggestions.

D.
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