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MS recording CO-100K vs Mkh 8050 Condenser Microphones
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1
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MS recording CO-100K vs Mkh 8050

Hi,

I'm planning on doing an animal recording session and was curious, what you guys think is the better option since I can't fit three mics in my basket:

Sanken CO-100K with an MKh 30

or

Double mono setup with Sanken CO-100K and Mkh 8050 for variaty?


This material will be used for creature sound design, recorded with an 744T at 192kHz.

I think the double mono could be more useful, since I can always stack multiple mono recordings of different animals and pan them for stereo effect.

Still MS is nice to have (if these mics fit together at all).

(I'm not going to use Mkh 8050 with Mkh 30 since the 50 tends to be noisy after pitching.)


Appreciate any advice.


SL1Ke
Old 3 weeks ago
  #2
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MKH 50 is noisy !!!
Double mono!!
Are you crazy
Either do it mono or stereo, ie record in MS and decide
Old 3 weeks ago
  #3
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With "50" I mean "MKH 8050", and depending on the location/environment the content above 20kHz is terribly noisy when pitched down two octaves. Thats why I want to use the CO-100K instead. But I never used an omni with figure 8 for MS, so I'm asking if these two mics (CO-100K and MKH 30) are a good combination.

Since the CO-100K is omni, I thought it could be useful to stack a second more directional mic instead of the MKH 30, with similar pitch capabilities (MKH 8050) on top for safety. But the tradeoff would be, that I'm getting basically the same mono signal twice.

Idealy I would stack all three mics in my Windshield, but there is not enough space for efficient use.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #4
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Find a Rycote 5 " windshield on the Bay, that will take 3 mics or a Cyclone also will
Omni MS works well with wildlife recording
Surely HF noise is part of the signal if you are de tuning it, what's the point, is it for composition?
Recording double mono seems redundant to me
Are you a field recordist or a post person?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
Find a Rycote 5 " windshield on the Bay, that will take 3 mics or a Cyclone also will
Omni MS works well with wildlife recording
Surely HF noise is part of the signal if you are de tuning it, what's the point, is it for composition?
Recording double mono seems redundant to me
Are you a field recordist or a post person?
Thanks, I'll take a look at those windshields.

The noise is still significantly less or not existant on the CO-100K compared to Mkh 8050.

It is for fictional creature sound design for an audio book/drama, in this case I'll do both field recording and post production and feel confident in both fields. But I don't own the CO-100K and never used it, hence I'm asking here.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SL1Ke View Post
The noise is still significantly less or not existant on the CO-100K compared to Mkh 8050.

... But I don't own the CO-100K and never used it, hence I'm asking here.
I know you don't own the Sanken, but have you actually recorded with one before, and verified that it's less noisy when pitched down?

I restarted a thread in the high-end forum dedicated more or less to this exact topic--having as quiet an ultrasonic recording as possible, for pitching down. I even talked to the Sanken distributors here on the phone just a few days ago about this. He strongly recommended a 384khz AD and recorder, if you want to realize the full potential of the mic. Mic pre should at least extend to 100khz. There are some--Pueblo, Gordon, Grace, Sonodore--that go to 100khz and above.

If you're using the 744T to record, note that the published frequency response only extends to 40khz, below the upper published spec of the 8050, and far, far below the limit of the Sanken.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #7
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If I were you SL I would hire a pair of MKH 800 and MS them in a Cyclone to an unknown recorder, whats the Sanken like with humidity and damp ?
Frankly why not use library material and varispeed it
Who is ever going to know?
Are you a animal behaviourist recordist , it can be time consuming to recce and record, without specialist help
Old 3 weeks ago
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pieter k View Post
I know you don't own the Sanken, but have you actually recorded with one before, and verified that it's less noisy when pitched down?

I restarted a thread in the high-end forum dedicated more or less to this exact topic--having as quiet an ultrasonic recording as possible, for pitching down. I even talked to the Sanken distributors here on the phone just a few days ago about this. He strongly recommended a 384khz AD and recorder, if you want to realize the full potential of the mic. Mic pre should at least extend to 100khz. There are some--Pueblo, Gordon, Grace, Sonodore--that go to 100khz and above.

If you're using the 744T to record, note that the published frequency response only extends to 40khz, below the upper published spec of the 8050, and far, far below the limit of the Sanken.
No, I have not recorded anything with the Sanken, that's just based on videos with pitched down examples like this one:

Fireworks Microphone Comparison (MKH8040 CCM41 CCM8 CO-100K NTG3 NT5 4061) - YouTube

Unfortunately I'm stuck with the 744T, but maybe I could organize a Sonosax SX-R4+, that would at least record up to 90kHz. By the way do you have any link on the 40kHz response, because I couldn't find any infomation on that.

My problem is not really the 50kHz response of the 8050, that's enough for my needs. But the noise is really annoying. I wish there was something like a real-time detuning option on recorders for preview.

By the way I've seen a new Sanken mic at IBC called CUX-100K. It looked like a CO-100K in a large diaphragm form factor. Switchable onmi and cardiod pattern. Pricepoint will be above the CO-100K, but it was just a prototype, so no clue about a release. But it looked more suitable for music, than field recording. I can attache a picture with specs later.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
If I were you SL I would hire a pair of MKH 800 and MS them in a Cyclone to an unknown recorder, whats the Sanken like with humidity and damp ?
Frankly why not use library material and varispeed it
Who is ever going to know?
Are you a animal behaviourist recordist , it can be time consuming to recce and record, without specialist help
I'm more or less stuck with the mics I mentioned. I'm getting the Sanken for a week for free already, so I don't want to necessarily look into other options.

I've heard it's a sensitive mic and not really ideal for field recording, but a sound designer/field recordist I've asked, who worked with this mic in the field, could not report any issues with humidity. Also I'm not really going to record in a critical area. People here have zero issues with Schoeps mics either.

I would use libraries, but this is my low-budget bachelor degree project and I set myself the goal to record everything myself or at least try it. Even for learning purposes.

A local zoo will help me out with recording these animals, it will still be time consuming I'm sure.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SL1Ke View Post
No, I have not recorded anything with the Sanken, that's just based on videos with pitched down examples like this one:

Fireworks Microphone Comparison (MKH8040 CCM41 CCM8 CO-100K NTG3 NT5 4061) - YouTube

Unfortunately I'm stuck with the 744T, but maybe I could organize a Sonosax SX-R4+, that would at least record up to 90kHz. By the way do you have any link on the 40kHz response, because I couldn't find any infomation on that.
http://cdn.sounddevices.com/download/guides/744t_en.pdf

The newer MixPre series have response to 80khz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SL1Ke View Post
My problem is not really the 50kHz response of the 8050, that's enough for my needs. But the noise is really annoying.
I've experienced that noise as well, on the 8040s. Hence my interest in the Sanken as well.

While I'm not discounting that noise as real, I've read enough now and in the case of Sanken's distribution here been told directly that for anyone who's interested in really maximizing the fidelity of ultrasonic recordings for down-pitching, it matters that the entire signal chain have the frequency response and sample rate to adequately support accurate recording. If the goal isn't getting much above 50khz, then a sample rate of 192hkz will suffice, and mic preamp response to 50khz will be enough. For anything above 50khz, we really have to start looking at 384khz sample rates and mic pres whose response matches the Sanken. It becomes an expensive endeavor, fraught with unknowns, given that in the moment we're recording, we're recording things we can't hear. Spooky!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #11
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The sound devices will be fine up to about 90kHz. Mic preamp is down about -1dB at 80kHz.
I would try MS with the sanken if you can get close enough to the sound source.

Except for bats, I don’t think most mamals or birds have much info above 50kHz, not even 20Khz ?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #12
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whippoorwill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pieter k View Post
we're recording things we can't hear. Spooky!
An ultrasonic monitoring system (a way of pitching down or hearing the ultrasonics) in the field would be super cool. I know it might take at minimum twice as long because of the inherent latency, but still..

So much gives off material above 20k. I've often seen 15ips tapes have some information up there and almost all instruments give off harmonics that go up to 30-40k at least. Animals for sure.

It's a fascinating region. I can still hear to 17.5k at least up to last month, but I often love recordings without much info above 6k...
Go figure.

To the OP, sanken with mkh30 side is probably your best bet, although I haven't tried the sanken. I tend to find hypercardioid m/s is a better bet for field recordings where there is a subject because of the reach and the articulation when you are trying to record a single source. Articulate omnis can give a great sense of being there for field recordings, I had some success with the DPA 4060 range years ago. The mkh30 is a fantastically detailed, high output mic and pairs acceptably with the 744t which can often sound strident in the highs and cloudy in the low mids, where the mkh30 is relatively smooth up top and articulate throughout its range. The SX-R4+ is in another league entirely than the 744T.

Last edited by whippoorwill; 3 weeks ago at 02:42 AM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #13
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@pieter k: Funny, I read the manual probably twice, but I never looked at the last couple pages. It says 40kHz response at 96kHz sampling rate. Does it go higher with 192kHz then? Btw there are some neat button shortcuts on the 744T, I didn't know!

@ljudatervinning: It's not about some unexpected sounds that you can discover above 20kHz. Like whippoorwill said, there are almost always upper harmonics on everything you record. When you pitch it down, you still get crisp highs with the Sanken compared to a 20kHz mic. All those unaudible hamonics move to the 15k-20k area (or lower depending on how much you pitch it), while with a 20kHz mic it creates a „hole“ in that frequency area and it sounds very cheap.

I want to design gigantic creatures (think of dragons or dinosaurs). Usually, when you look at animals, the bigger the animal is, or more precisely, the biggers it's throat is, the deeper/lower the vocal tonality becomes. Now if you compare a lion to a fictional dragon, you would imagine it's a couple times bigger than a lion. So I need to pitch it down at lot. In „Game of Thrones“ for example, all the dragons are made of multiple layers of animal recordings, pitched and manipulated. Not only does it destract from the fact, that these are animal recordings, but it also adds complexity and makes the sound very full and huge. It's the same principle with orchestras and the reason why you have different instruments with different frequency ranges.

@whippoorwill: I agree, I don't like the 744T in combination with the Mkh 8000 series. It sounds very clinical, boring, sometimes impacts can be very harsh. Not a lot of warmth there. The Sonosax pres are really amazing, they just sound clean, warm and smooth like butter.

The only think that bothers me is the frequency response of the Mkh 30. Even with the Sanken, I'll still only be able to pitch it down about an octave, if I want to have usable side signal.

What about two Mkh 8040s in XY and the Sanken on top? That should fit easier in a windshield with MZL cables, than three mics on top of each other.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SL1Ke View Post
@whippoorwill: I agree, I don't like the 744T in combination with the Mkh 8000 series. It sounds very clinical, boring, sometimes impacts can be very harsh. Not a lot of warmth there. The Sonosax pres are really amazing, they just sound clean, warm and smooth like butter..
FY(and anyone else's)I: SX-R4+ & SX-RC8+ bundle Special Deal – Sonosax
Old 3 weeks ago
  #15
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If you are recording in a Zoo get there before the punters
Try and get in at early feeding time or after sunset
Use your research status
I used to record Pyro , Cannon and side arms on my stereo Nagra + MKH 50/30 @ 15 ips and then varispeed it down for effect
A Lewis Gun can sound fab like that as can Turkish Cannon
Why you need 2 M mics is a mystery to me and it will inhibit true coincidence
Old 3 weeks ago
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
Why you need 2 M mics is a mystery to me and it will inhibit true coincidence
I don't want two mid mics. It's just that I've used the Mkh 8050/Mkh30 combo a lot and I know how it sounds, but never used the Sanken for mid. I'll try to get it a week before the initial recording session and do some test recordings.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #17
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Here is the CUX-100K, unfortunately I didn't get the specs in the frame and it's a little blurry, my bad.
Attached Thumbnails
MS recording CO-100K vs Mkh 8050-20180916_131620.jpg  
Old 3 weeks ago
  #18
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Thats a sum and difference challenge
However don't fret about the technique
Its the practice that counts
Can you record clean animal behaviour and distort it realistically for creature sound design, and is it better than library material
I ask you this because of my knowledge of Natural History filming and its complete reliance on archive
Roger
Old 3 weeks ago
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
I ask you this because of my knowledge of Natural History filming and its complete reliance on archive
Roger
Do you mean 20+ years of Attenborough documentaries didn't use actual location sound !
Old 3 weeks ago
  #20
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Little behaviour is shot sync, its impractical
Location wild tracks may be shot but the majority is a post synthesis, laid by editors from library
Attenborough is sync obviously, he travelled with a recordist around the many specialist cameramen (30) shooting all over the World
Though he was nearly replaced by Robert Redford on the insistence of US Networks!
Only Jayne Fondas likening of David kept him in the US version, she was married to Ted Turner at the time, he was a co producer
Sir David is a genius story teller and great writer, a wonderful illuminating gentlemen to travel with
Old 3 weeks ago
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SL1Ke View Post

Appreciate any advice.


SL1Ke
The COS100k is an incredible mic. Question is what's your priority? Can you "afford" the omni in terms of recording distance to the animals you have in mind? If it's for creature design no need for stereo especially assuming the room acoustics is the least you're interested in. You have 4 channels so why not get everything on the same ticket given the effort and probably cost of getting close to the animals? Rent the mics and capture as much as you can. Renting is cheap, regretting not having done it later can be expensive.
What's the animal? Does it even create sound at high frequencies that's worth capturing?
Anyway...hope this helps.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #22
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@Rolo 46: I think you'are missing the point here. This is not a paid job. If it was, I would not even think about recording animals myself. Libraries are faster and more efficient. But this my personal project and I want to record it myself.

Documentaries are a whole different thing. You will never be able to get that close to animals in nature. Most good sounding documentaries have replaced sound (besides dialogue).

Also nobody was born as an animal recordist. Even the best library producers started somewhere in a trial and error manner. I've seen enough video footage on how my favorite libraries were recorded. It's no very complicated. Choose a good location, avoid room reflections, get as close as you can for good SNR and press record. At least with animals you don't have a lot of influence on how they behave, you just wait. Unless you have someone who helps you with that.


@apple-q: I want good pitch capabilities and a good signal to noise ratio (by noise I mean unwanted ambience). I took a closer look at the pattern of the Sanken, and actually from 50kHz-100kHz it gets way more directional, almost cardiod I would say. My goal ist to record with 30-50cm, maybe 1 m max. distance to the source, anything else is useless imo. But it is/was the same concern I had, and the reason why I wanted to record two mono sources, one more directional, if the Sanken recorded too much ambience. And yes, in fact I don't need stereo. I'm only going to design one creature, maybe different versions of the same creature. If I record ten ainmals, I have enough material that I can spread in the stereo field, not even including reverb, and other sends.

The 744T has 4 channels, but only two XLR inputs with phantom power. I can add an SD MM-1 to record with three mics, but that's it unless I get a different recorder or a second pre.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #23
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My guess is that a shotgun or super cardioid mic is more suitable for intended purpose.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #24
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Most of the wild life recordists I know have been bird enthusiasts from childhood
Or Scientists intent on observation
Zoos are not ideal for recording, enclosures don't sound natural
The BBC library has been built over many years by varied means
Specialists, documentary recordists, camera guys long in the field, producers etc
Some of the locations are impossible to reach by individuals, they need Universities or broadcasters and above all patience
I understand your project better now, but think your approach is wrong with such a refined mic
Hire a Super CMIT-5U and see how that works out
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