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Soundfield ST450 MKII or Josephson C700S Ribbon Microphones
Old 30th June 2018
  #1
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nobtwiddler's Avatar
 

Soundfield ST450 MKII or Josephson C700S

Just been hired to record a singer songwriter in his home.
New record, 12 tracks.
Basically we'll be doing the sessions in the "great room" of his farmhouse.
40 x 25 x 12. Beautiful acoustics.

We want to make this as pure and simple as possible, so to that end,
I'm considering the purchase of one of these two mics.
- Josephson C700S
or
- SoundField ST450 MKII

As it doesn't look like I can get a demo of either before the session start.
I was wondering if anyone here has used either of these in this kind of setting.
And what your thought are...

Thanks in advance.
Old 30th June 2018
  #2
Gear Addict
 
whippoorwill's Avatar
I'm not a big fan of any of the soundfield stuff I've ever heard, mostly due to off axis behaviour and this sort of setting will not mask that at all. I'd venture Blumlein is probably what you want and a stereo AEA, Royer or Samar ribbon or a MKH30 pair would prove to be very useful and cheaper with an excellent sound. You could spend the change on an excellent AEA, Lake People or Pueblo preamp.
Here's one of the few jospehson demos I've heard: YouTube
Hard to know how close that is to what went in.
Have you tried contacting josephson directly?

edit: looking at your website the DW-Fearn plus Royer sf-12 into the crane song would be a great start, you don't have many omni options so a stereo pair of omnis in the room either in front or behind of the performer in the diffuse field (check phase and try and decorrelate as much as possible) to work with in post might be useful. You should test your AD's for latency against each other or borrow another hedd and chain them for greatest delay correlation.

Last edited by whippoorwill; 30th June 2018 at 09:45 PM.. Reason: saw website.
Old 30th June 2018
  #3
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i like soundfield mics very much for orchestra recordings but most likely wouldn't use any in this kind of setting - unless i'd intend recording a multitude of instruments with a single mic (array) without moving it out of a central position and/or i'd want to record/mix everything in surround.
Old 1st July 2018
  #4
Question

Have you considered recording ambisonic so you can get the most out of a coincident array? (Apologies if the ST450 is ambi, but they don't mention it on the website.)

The Josephson is good, but won't make magic.

Do you have other mics on hand already to do non-coincident?
Old 1st July 2018
  #5
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The ST450 is an Ambisonic mic, yes.

I think its suitability for this role depends on how you want to use it. The ST450 can be a really great mic for singing guitarists in situations where you need separate guitar and vocal signals but you don't want to put up multiple mics and stands. If you find the right placement, you can then use the decoding plug-in to derive a mono-ish vocal and a nice stereo guitar with very good separation. The vocal tone won't be quite like you'd get from a typical large-diaphragm condenser though (not necessarily worse, just different).

If on the other hand you want to make a purist stereo recording that captures the vocal and guitar as a single entity, in a more classical style, I'd probably rather spaced omnis or something.
Old 1st July 2018
  #6
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Plush's Avatar
The Soundfield is a good stereo mic. But as you want to use it, it is nothing more than that.

I would tend to use separate mics for your recording. They would offer more flexibility and more options for placement.

Capturing a gtr. player and singer with a stereo mic tends to sound more distant than doing the same recording with separate microphones.

Josephson always makes good mics but I see not reason that other mics would not provide the same result.
Old 1st July 2018
  #7
Lives for gear
I haven't used the soundfield but I have a C700S (and 2 C700A's- a bit of a Josephson fanboy here...).

One thing with the Joe is it IS a mic that is worthy of being in any LDC vocal shootout. You could put it in a lineup that includes all the heavyweight vocal LDC's and while they are obviously cleaner than tube mics, the results aren't sterile or boring. In my use, we have plenty of tools now days to add some color...I find that vocalists are very proactive with their dynamics using the 700 series in a way I haven't found with other mics.

I haven't used the soundfield but my concern there (I've considered them) is that they may be more on the SDC end of the spectrum in terms of being a bit sterile for close vocals. Also all capsules loose treble response off-axis, one thing that would concern me for the tetrahedral array is it seems difficult to reliably get on axis for any capsule. On the 700S you can use just the fig8 and it's a great mic, or add the omni and it's really great...or use all 3.

Is this intended for stereo output? I use metaplugin and the surroundzone2 with the C700S to record into LCR tracks in PT. Works fairly well but I'm still experimenting there...

The one thing with the C700S is it won't have the Z axis...
Old 1st July 2018
  #8
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nobtwiddler's Avatar
 

Wow....
Thanks guys for all the great replies, and insight into these mics!
I appreciate and value all your opinions.

I have never recorded a acoustic guitarist, singing with just one mic,
which was the artists request.
Although he did want a stereo capture.

I actually have a few good stereo mic's, I have 2 x Royer SF-12's (which I love) and have used them in this type of recording many times with great success, but always along with a separate vocal mic.

I also own a beautiful Neumann SM69 tube.

I guess the ability to manipulate the patterns of the mic in post is probably what intrigued me.
Old 2nd July 2018
  #9
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I own a Soundfield ST450 MKI (and the more expensive DSF-1). The ST450 MKII is quieter and has better phase accuracy than the MKI.
Yes you can get a good stereo recording of a singer with a guitar. In a good acoustic space
I would try putting the mic a few feet in front and
above and decode to omni until you find the right
direct to reverberant balance and then try Blumlein decode. (The plane of the Blumlein should be tilted down to achieve the best balance of
vocal and instrument). If the singer bends their
neck down to look at the strings while playing
then you may need to position the mic lower.
As others have said there are lots of other good
mic options. I would definitely consider future uses and not just this project in your decision making.
Reasons to consider purchasing the
Josephson or Soundfield:
1.flexibility of Ambisonic decoding in post
(ST450-horizontal and vertical, Josephson-
horizontal only)
2. ST450:smaller mic size, portability (battery operation) and dedicated preamp/processor (quite compact) only need recorder with
4 gain-matched line inputs for B-format or 2 if you want to record a stereo/MS decode ( 4+2 if you want to record both). Controls on the preamp/processor allow for continuously variable adjustment of the mic pattern and stereo width for the stereo/MS decode. (Control over rotation and vertical tilt is only available in software).
The preamp/processor plus battery plus separate recorder can easily fit in a bag for walking around.
Works fine outdoors (with Rycote blimp). (Has internal mic heating element so you can use outdoors even in a humid environment without problems like other AF
condensers). Also good choice if you want to do VR work. Uses special mic cable (with 12 pin Lemo connectors) to connect mic to preamp/ processor.
The preamp/processor line outs are on 3 stereo
5-pin XLR’s (“WX”, “YZ” and stereo/MS).
3. Josephson-haven’t used it but I have C617 omni’s so I know their quality.
Larger in size compared to the ST450 so a consideration if visuals are an issue. Not portable. Need to provide separate clean
3 channels ( 1 for each capsule) of preamp.
To get a stereo decode you need a 5 channels on a mixer, see
http://www.josephson.com/pdf/srs7.pdf,
or more simply, a B-Format decoding plug-in like the free Soundfield Surroundzone2.

Thanks,
Bill
Old 2nd July 2018
  #10
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
The Soundfield is a good stereo mic. But as you want to use it, it is nothing more than that.
I'm reluctant to contradict Plush but I disagree on this point. The key factor with the Soundfield is that you can derive any number of different mono or stereo arrays from the B-format signal. I have fairly often used it in this way to generate a mono vocal signal and a stereo guitar signal that can be separately processed at the mix. The advantage compared with normal multi-miking techniques is that these are phase-coherent because they are all derived from the same coincident source. The disadvantage is that the ST450 might not suit your vocalist, and certainly won't sound like a classic large-diaphragm mic.

If this thread is still alive when I'm back from holiday next week, I'll try to dig up an audio example for you.
Old 2nd July 2018
  #11
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tourtelot's Avatar
Let's take away the discussion of post processing for a moment and talk about the actual "sound" of the compared microphones. By this, I don't mean to imply that post processing is a nice tool for finally getting what you need out of a session, but I think that it is not enough to overcome pickup problems.

I, because I don't own either mic, would find myself using entirely different techniques in the OP's situation and I would reach for the mic pair that would give me the best sound of my available mics.

So, again not owning or ever having heard either mic, would those who have compare the sound for me?

I did own a Soundfield SPS200 (relatively inexpensive Soundfield, I know) and I didn't think the sound compared to any of my usual mic pairs. I got rid of it quickly. FWIW, and that isn't much. Maybe $.02.

D.
Old 2nd July 2018
  #12
Gear Maniac
 

Seems like the Neumann SM69 would be a nice choice. Set it to cardioid, place the capsules at 60 degrees and center it- that would give enough spread for the guitar but it would keep the vocal tight. I would think that would work out nicely.

90 degrees (either x-y or blumlein) spreads things out too much (imo), considering the source. Even 45 degrees is probably better than 90, but I think 60 is the sweet spot.

Maybe you can demo that setup on your own before the session (if you do, I'd love to hear the result).
Old 2nd July 2018
  #13
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imo there is no point in comparing any soundfield mic (or similar mic array) to more conventional mics: soundfields can decode to stereo but frankly, there are always better solutions for stereo recording/mixing: what makes them interesting in some stereo applications nevertheless is their function (to recombine capsules in post in any possible way), not their sound.

on the other hand, they are extremly easy to use and pretty convincing for surround recording/mixing (apart from some limits that simply cannot be overcome by the design of capsule array) and one would have to come up with fairly sophistcated mic arrays trying to emulate a soundfield with a clumsy bunch of conventional mics...

in surround application, even the sps200 sound pretty good - i wish though that any of the other well known manufacturers would come up with a high end version including a mic pre with simultanuous outputs of all formats and a built in headphone preamp with separate decoding for monitoring...
Old 2nd July 2018
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
Haigbabe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
imo there is no point in comparing any soundfield mic (or similar mic array) to more conventional mics

on the other hand, they are extremly easy to use and pretty convincing for surround recording/mixing (apart from some limits that simply cannot be overcome by the design of capsule array) and one would have to come up with fairly sophistcated mic arrays trying to emulate a soundfield with a clumsy bunch of conventional mics...

in surround application, even the sps200 sound pretty good - i wish though that any of the other well known manufacturers would come up with a high end version including a mic pre with simultanuous outputs of all formats and a bulit in headphone preamp with separate decoding for monitoring...
Good points. And monitoring in real time (not using a computer) would make such recording/decoding most useful.

To the OP, I’m a fan of Soundfield mics, but you have to use them for a while to work out what they can and cannot do. They can actually do a great natural sounding job on any source, but sometimes you need a little more from them which is why they are a tool to use in certain circumstances. Sometimes a pair of SDC mics are a better way.

But why not use everything? Then compare afterwards? You’ll learn a lot more about each, you may even blend into a hybrid for best results.

Haigbabe
Old 3rd July 2018
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
imo there is no point in comparing any soundfield mic (or similar mic array) to more conventional mics: soundfields can decode to stereo but frankly, there are always better solutions for stereo recording/mixing: what makes them interesting in some stereo applications nevertheless is their function (to recombine capsules in post in any possible way), not their sound.

on the other hand, they are extremly easy to use and pretty convincing for surround recording/mixing (apart from some limits that simply cannot be overcome by the design of capsule array) and one would have to come up with fairly sophistcated mic arrays trying to emulate a soundfield with a clumsy bunch of conventional mics...

in surround application, even the sps200 sound pretty good - i wish though that any of the other well known manufacturers would come up with a high end version including a mic pre with simultanuous outputs of all formats and a bulit in headphone preamp with separate decoding for monitoring...
I would be cautious about making the generalization that all Soundfield mics can’t compete in stereo applications with top quality
individual mics. While the less expensive SPS200
and earlier MK V and 422 may not be equal in quality to high quality individual mics, the DSF-1
(which I own) sounds as good as my individual
Sennheiser MKH 8040/8050/30’s and Josephson C617’s through Gordon preamps. The DSF-1 is my go to main orchestra/choral mic and is not a compromise. The adjustability in post is a bonus.
It allows me to tweak the pattern, stereo width, azimuth and tilt in post which is very helpful when
you don’t have a rehearsal to tweak things.
In addition I can add a decode (e.g. a Harpex B
plugin “shotgun” decode to tweak the level of the
vocal soloists which were 10-14 ft off to the right and just a few feet in front of my stand (not ideal for pick up by the main Blumlein decode) and a little low in the “main pair”.
Old 3rd July 2018
  #16
Gear Maniac
 

Seems like the topic at hand is capturing an artist singing and playing into a single stereo mic. Has anyone here done that?

Eric Bibb's Spirit and the Blues is one of the better known ensemble recordings done with a single stereo mic (C24). On his solo record Booker's Guitar they used 2 Royer SF 12's (one on vocals, one on guitar).

But a solo artist into a single stereo mic? Few examples of that.

If you haven't seen this, it's Ashley Campbell (Glen's daughter) singing and playing into an R88.


Old 3rd July 2018
  #17
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
But a solo artist into a single stereo mic? Few examples of that.
Thanks for the link Pangolin. I'm trying to find good examples since I too am faced with recording a singer-guitarist soon, in this who (understandably) doesn't want to overdub and who sits while playing (in a rather bent-over-the-guitar manner): with a first-rate room acoustic, in this case a single mid-side or Blumlein approach seems more attractive and feasible than separate mics for guitar and vocals. This example doesn't sound distant at all.

Cheers,

Roland
Old 3rd July 2018
  #18
RPC
Gear Addict
 

I'll second Folkie about the modern Soundfields. We shot out his DSF-1 versus my super-modified MK IV last December - I ended up going with the DSF-1. (More accurate imaging - I've got to figure out how to match my capsule levels better!)
Old 3rd July 2018
  #19
Gear Addict
 

There's an interesting article at Sound on Sound about the challenges of recording a singing guitarist; there might be some useful info in there:

Recording A Singing Guitarist |
Old 3rd July 2018
  #20
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobtwiddler View Post
Just been hired to record a singer songwriter in his home.
New record, 12 tracks.
Basically we'll be doing the sessions in the "great room" of his farmhouse.
40 x 25 x 12. Beautiful acoustics.

We want to make this as pure and simple as possible, so to that end,
I'm considering the purchase of one of these two mics.
- Josephson C700S
or
- SoundField ST450 MKII

As it doesn't look like I can get a demo of either before the session start.
I was wondering if anyone here has used either of these in this kind of setting.
And what your thought are...

Thanks in advance.
a frequent poster to this list has recorded a singer-songwriter in a similar context to the one you describe ..2 video samples here: YouTube

YouTube

2 ribbon mics plus room mic...his description is in post #80 in this thread: MS stereo does not collapse to mono at LF
Old 3rd July 2018
  #21
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
I would be cautious about making the generalization that all Soundfield mics can’t compete in stereo applications with top quality
individual mics. While the less expensive SPS200
and earlier MK V and 422 may not be equal in quality to high quality individual mics, the DSF-1
(which I own) sounds as good as my individual
Sennheiser MKH 8040/8050/30’s and Josephson C617’s through Gordon preamps. The DSF-1 is my go to main orchestra/choral mic and is not a compromise. The adjustability in post is a bonus.
It allows me to tweak the pattern, stereo width, azimuth and tilt in post which is very helpful when
you don’t have a rehearsal to tweak things.
In addition I can add a decode (e.g. a Harpex B
plugin “shotgun” decode to tweak the level of the
vocal soloists which were 10-14 ft off to the right and just a few feet in front of my stand (not ideal for pick up by the main Blumlein decode) and a little low in the “main pair”.
thx for your comments on the dsf-1: i did get to use it as the main mic array for surround work (and liked it's sound) but never to compare it along a conventional pair of stereo main mics.



p.s. i got to use many surround mic arrays throughout the years (around 25% of my work is in surround) and the combination of both sound quality and functional aspects of soundfield mics is still unparalled imo - except maybe for the schoeps ortf-3d: but since i got to use this array only once (yet), i cannot really comment on it other than i liked it very much and that the representation of the rear channels was far more convincing (possibly due to the much wider arrangement of the capsules) than what can be achieved with any soundfield mic.

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 3rd July 2018 at 02:20 PM.. Reason: p.s. added
Old 3rd July 2018
  #22
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nobtwiddler's Avatar
 

Loads of good suggestions here..
And I appreciate it all.
Keep em coming!

In the meantime,
Still deciding which way to go?

I've achieved great results using my 2 Royer SF-12's.
One placed horizontally, set so one side picks up the vocal & the other element picks up the guitar.
And then using the second SF-12 a few feet back as my stereo ambience mic.

But we will see, still would love to hear a C700S in this setting for myself.
Old 4th July 2018
  #23
Lives for gear
I would suggest using fig 8s to spot mic both the guitar and the voice. Then, have a stereo array of some kind for the room. But first, here is a quick video that will give you an idea of what the C700S sounds like in a decent acoustic. We filmed this in a cathedral in Cuba a couple of years ago. We used a single C700s for the voices, and a DPA 4099 clipped to the guitar. This video uses the scratch audio directly from the Nagra VI internal mixer.

Trio Palabras: Colibri y la Flor

I had a long conversation with David Josephson at their shop a couple of weeks ago about best practices for the C700S. There is a lot of information, so ask away if you have any specific questions. But a key thing to remember is that, as you dial up the omni, sensitivity of the back (negative phase) side of the mid capsule is reduced. If you want to use the C700S to record sound sources all around it, David recommended monitoring the omni in mono to get the sound sources balanced to your satisfaction, then record all three channels at the same level. Then, while tracking, monitor the fig 8 capsules, decoded as standard mid side, in stereo. This can work to your advantage. For example, to de-emphasize the acoustic (or audience noise) behind the C700S.

And here are a couple of videos we did for Scottish folk artist, Rachel Sermanni, in which we used AEA ribbons for her voice and guitar, with an AEA R88 for the room, which was a little cabin in the woods. This is really the best way to approach a singing guitarist. Vocal ribbon with the guitar in the null, guitar ribbon with vocal in the null, which gives sufficient control over each sound source in post. Then, the R88 in Blumlein XY...just dial in as much room as you want. This was also recorded on the Nagra VI. You can see the positions of all the mics in the video.

Rachel Sermanni: Church Street Blues
Rachel Sermanni: Old Lady's Lament

If I were to do your proposed recording with my own mics and preamps, I'd put my AEA A440 on his voice, the AEA N8 on the guitar (each on an RPQ channel), and the AEA R88 on the room with a TRP. Done deal.

Single mic... Yeah, C700S, R88, SF12/24 or AKG C426b would be worth a try... A lot would depend on the singer's voice. C700S is certainly a beautiful thing in the right acoustic space.

Last edited by bwanajim; 4th July 2018 at 10:46 PM..
Old 5th July 2018
  #24
Gear Addict
 

Geez Jim there you go again making great recordings and videos. The performance in Cuba is absolutely delicious, loved it, beautiful blend of the voices. You were probably thrilled to be there to capture it. I wanna go to Cuba too. Liked the sound very much and nice video too, the C700S is very impressive. Also good to hear more of Rachel Sermanni again, she's something special. Think I like warm weather better than snow. I really like your presentations, there's a real warmth and humanity, just a good feel to it. Thanks for showing these to us.
Old 5th July 2018
  #25
Gear Nut
 

Was it really that cold in the cabin where Rachel played and sang? Wow. Beautiful recording and performance of Church Street Blues. Long time fan of Norman and Tony.
Old 5th July 2018
  #26
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwanajim View Post
And here are a couple of videos we did for Scottish folk artist, Rachel Sermanni, in which we used AEA ribbons for her voice and guitar, with an AEA R88 for the room, which was a little cabin in the woods. This is really the best way to approach a singing guitarist. Vocal ribbon with the guitar in the null, guitar ribbon with vocal in the null, which gives sufficient control over each sound source in post. Then, the R88 in Blumlein XY...just dial in as much room as you want. This was also recorded on the Nagra VI. You can see the positions of all the mics in the video.

Rachel Sermanni: Church Street Blues
Rachel Sermanni: Old Lady's Lament

If I were to do your proposed recording with my own mics and preamps, I'd put my AEA A440 on his voice, the AEA N8 on the guitar (each on an RPQ channel), and the AEA R88 on the room with a TRP. Done deal.
I'm curious about these Rachel Sermanni recordings (great job, btw). I have some questions:

-Did you EQ the N8/vocals?
-Why would you recommend an N8 on guitar, when the N22 did such a nice job?
-And why the A440 over the N8 on vocals? Is there a big sonic difference?

Thanks a bunch!
Old 5th July 2018
  #27
The Josephson C700s is one of my favorite mics for anything acoustic, we've used them on pipe organs, baroque flutes, ouds, and whole jazz combos playing live in a room. Also works as a bloated LDC (a very nice sounding one) if you just use one of the capsule's outputs. My only worry would be the balance between the guitar and voice. If the artist has that under control, then you'd have a great time with the gig with this mic and a minimum of fuss. If not, then, well, it'll be an uphill battle.
Old 5th July 2018
  #28
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nobtwiddler's Avatar
 

Jim,
Those song samples are just wonderful.
So real, the artists emotion just jumps from the speakers.
Beautiful job.
Really well done.

Thanks for the all the info.

I also have the opportunity to try one AEA Ku4A. was thinking maybe that on vocal
and one SF-12 on guitar.

But still really jonesing for a C700s.
Old 6th July 2018
  #29
Lives for gear
Yes, there has been a fair amount of EQ on the N8/vocal mic. Fortunately, material recorded on ribbons tolerates EQ very well.

The N22 would have been a better choice on the vocal. There were quite a few plosives with the N8 that had to be corrected. It was to the point that I was concerned about damage to the mic. N22 has a lot of protection and usually doesn’t need a windscreen. We could have gotten Rachel a lot closer to the mic and picked up less room sound. The N8 is good as an instrument mic, and also works well in pairs for Blumlein mid-side or XY. It doesn’t sound as dull or thin as the N22 with more distant sound sources. You really want things about 6” away with the N22. That’s tough for a guitarist, as they have to worry about the distance. N8 could be pulled back some. I was still learning these mics when we did the recording...

The A440 has a bigger, richer sound than the N8. And I think it has more protection for the ribbon than the N8 as well. It’s less prone to plosives than the N8 when used on vocals. I assume it has something to do with the grill design. Look at film clips of Sinatra and others from that era. They worked the RCA44 up close without any pop filter.

A440 has a BIG sound, loads of proximity effect that you can play with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pangolin View Post
I'm curious about these Rachel Sermanni recordings (great job, btw). I have some questions:

-Did you EQ the N8/vocals?
-Why would you recommend an N8 on guitar, when the N22 did such a nice job?
-And why the A440 over the N8 on vocals? Is there a big sonic difference?

Thanks a bunch!
Old 6th July 2018
  #30
Lives for gear
Thank you for the kind words!

SF12 should work well on the guitar just using one of its ribbons. But maybe it would be put to better use as the room mic in this case. Just find yourself one additional ribbon for the guitar. Can you rent an N8? I have never used the Ku4A, but I assume it would be a good choice in this case, with its supercard pattern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nobtwiddler View Post
Jim,
Those song samples are just wonderful.
So real, the artists emotion just jumps from the speakers.
Beautiful job.
Really well done.

Thanks for the all the info.

I also have the opportunity to try one AEA Ku4A. was thinking maybe that on vocal
and one SF-12 on guitar.

But still really jonesing for a C700s.
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