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Soundfield ST450 MKII or Josephson C700S Ribbon Microphones
Old 7th July 2018
  #31
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by oudplayer View Post
The Josephson C700s is one of my favorite mics for anything acoustic, we've used them on pipe organs, baroque flutes, ouds, and whole jazz combos playing live in a room. Also works as a bloated LDC (a very nice sounding one) if you just use one of the capsule's outputs. My only worry would be the balance between the guitar and voice. If the artist has that under control, then you'd have a great time with the gig with this mic and a minimum of fuss. If not, then, well, it'll be an uphill battle.
That's my thinking-

I haven't had the chance to really put my C700S to use a whole lot yet, but the issue I see with it here is even using Surroundzone2 you can only steer it in post on the axis that's perpendicular to the capsule array. Without the Z axis, you couldn't decode one stereo pair looking down towards the guitar, and one mono looking towards the vocals.

You could put it sideways, and then the steering would give a bit of a voice to guitar balance (maybe duplicating the LCR track and decoding two mono). But then you wouldn't get any real stereo from the guitar if that was a goal.

It might work to do something like that (sideways) and then also mic the 12th fret with a different mic...

It would be nice if any of the decoders would output a MS from it, you can do it manually, but the decoders do make experimenting easy.
Old 7th July 2018
  #32
Gear Maniac
 

I have a singer/songwriter session coming up and bought a new AEA ACE and KU4 along with an RPQ2. Really hoping to get the ACE in for this session but it may not ship in time.

On the Rachel Sermanni videos, your vocal mic is positioned close to the way I would expect to position a ribbon for this use.

You guitar mic height/rotation surprised me a bit as I would expect the mic to be raised as required in order to rotate the null toward the vocal.

How was the vocal bleed into the guitar mic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwanajim View Post
I would suggest using fig 8s to spot mic both the guitar and the voice. Then, have a stereo array of some kind for the room. But first, here is a quick video that will give you an idea of what the C700S sounds like in a decent acoustic. We filmed this in a cathedral in Cuba a couple of years ago. We used a single C700s for the voices, and a DPA 4099 clipped to the guitar. This video uses the scratch audio directly from the Nagra VI internal mixer.

Trio Palabras: Colibri y la Flor

I had a long conversation with David Josephson at their shop a couple of weeks ago about best practices for the C700S. There is a lot of information, so ask away if you have any specific questions. But a key thing to remember is that, as you dial up the omni, sensitivity of the back (negative phase) side of the mid capsule is reduced. If you want to use the C700S to record sound sources all around it, David recommended monitoring the omni in mono to get the sound sources balanced to your satisfaction, then record all three channels at the same level. Then, while tracking, monitor the fig 8 capsules, decoded as standard mid side, in stereo. This can work to your advantage. For example, to de-emphasize the acoustic (or audience noise) behind the C700S.

And here are a couple of videos we did for Scottish folk artist, Rachel Sermanni, in which we used AEA ribbons for her voice and guitar, with an AEA R88 for the room, which was a little cabin in the woods. This is really the best way to approach a singing guitarist. Vocal ribbon with the guitar in the null, guitar ribbon with vocal in the null, which gives sufficient control over each sound source in post. Then, the R88 in Blumlein XY...just dial in as much room as you want. This was also recorded on the Nagra VI. You can see the positions of all the mics in the video.

Rachel Sermanni: Church Street Blues
Rachel Sermanni: Old Lady's Lament

If I were to do your proposed recording with my own mics and preamps, I'd put my AEA A440 on his voice, the AEA N8 on the guitar (each on an RPQ channel), and the AEA R88 on the room with a TRP. Done deal.

Single mic... Yeah, C700S, R88, SF12/24 or AKG C426b would be worth a try... A lot would depend on the singer's voice. C700S is certainly a beautiful thing in the right acoustic space.

Last edited by StevenLMorgan; 9th July 2018 at 10:39 PM..
Old 12th July 2018
  #33
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nobtwiddler's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Ahhhh, now a new contender, the Nevaton BPT ?
Looks very interesting, especially for what my main sessions will be.

NEW! Nevaton BPT
Old 4 weeks ago
  #34
Gear Addict
We just listened to orient the guitar and vocal mics to get the most isolation. Just kept adjusting them until we got what we needed. There’s little bleed in either direction, helped by the fact that the little cabin was pretty dry. It had blankets and sleeping bags hanging in the rafters just above her position.

That new 44ACE is going to be great. 9/10s of the A440 for half the price! I’ve been very interested in the KU4 as well. That’s a pretty useful pattern for a ribbon mic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLMorgan View Post
I have a singer/songwriter session coming up and bought a new AEA ACE and KU4 along with an RPQ2. Really hoping to get the ACE in for this session but it may not ship in time.

On the Rachel Sermanni videos, your vocal mic is positioned close to the way I would expect to position a ribbon for this use.

You guitar mic height/rotation surprised me a bit as I would expect the mic to be raised as required in order to rotate the null toward the vocal.

How was the vocal bleed into the guitar mic?
Old 1 week ago
  #35
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nobtwiddler's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
C700S arrived today!

Well, The C700S just arrived, and I will start testing tomorrow!

CAN'T WAIT!

What a beautiful piece of kit this is.

WOW.
Old 1 week ago
  #36
Gear Addict
It is a thing of beauty, for sure...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nobtwiddler View Post
Well, The C700S just arrived, and I will start testing tomorrow!

CAN'T WAIT!

What a beautiful piece of kit this is.

WOW.
Old 1 week ago
  #37
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by nobtwiddler View Post
Well, The C700S just arrived, and I will start testing tomorrow!

CAN'T WAIT!

What a beautiful piece of kit this is.

WOW.
Congrats!

I don't know what DAW you are using, or any, but if you want to play with a decoder, surroundzone2 is free.

In PT I use an LCR track and then load the plugin in metaplugin so I don't have to waste HD space for an empty Z channel. I'm still playing with this vs manual decoding, and both seem to have some pros and cons. But it is cool to have steering, quick width controls and easier to edit the 1 track vs 3 grouped- also elastic audio sounds better (maybe someday they will fix this...).
Old 1 week ago
  #38
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nobtwiddler's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Well it's here, but because of last minute sessions, Sadly I won't be able to test her out till next week...
Attached Thumbnails
Soundfield ST450 MKII or Josephson C700S-dsc00043.jpg  
Old 1 week ago
  #39
Gear Maniac
 
elpillo's Avatar
 

Gorgeous mic! Congrats!

I have a question to all the multi-capsule mic (Josephson's, Nevaton, Pearl, etc...) users. What made you guys buy one over a couple of good pairs? Is it because there's no way you can get THAT sound with anything else, no matter how many and what mics you use? Is it because it is easier to set up? Is it the fact that you can alter the polar-pattern after the fact? Was it because you heard it and you thought "that's the sound I've been seeking all my career"? Also, is it redundant to use 2 of the C700S for a recording? Would be the "ultimate setup"?
Would love to know what made you guys say "I NEED THAT MIC NOW" and through that amount of dough at once for a single (great & awesome) mic.
I'm super curious to use one of these. I know someone who has a C700 or C700S (can't remember) and I could have access to it at some point.

Thanks!
Old 1 week ago
  #40
Quote:
Originally Posted by elpillo View Post
Gorgeous mic! Congrats!

I have a question to all the multi-capsule mic (Josephson's, Nevaton, Pearl, etc...) users. What made you guys buy one over a couple of good pairs? Is it because there's no way you can get THAT sound with anything else, no matter how many and what mics you use? Is it because it is easier to set up? Is it the fact that you can alter the polar-pattern after the fact? Was it because you heard it and you thought "that's the sound I've been seeking all my career"? Also, is it redundant to use 2 of the C700S for a recording? Would be the "ultimate setup"?
Would love to know what made you guys say "I NEED THAT MIC NOW" and through that amount of dough at once for a single (great & awesome) mic.
I'm super curious to use one of these. I know someone who has a C700 or C700S (can't remember) and I could have access to it at some point.
Thanks!
I don't own the c700s myself, but play with a musician who does own one and we've done some recordings with it in interesting acoustical locations (churches etc). All the stereo stuff is fine, and as you said there's cool stuff that can be done in post and setup is relatively easy, but even using the thing as a single-channel affair can be great too (we've used it for wind instruments that way).
Old 1 week ago
  #41
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nobtwiddler's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
- Is it the fact that you can alter the polar-pattern after the fact?

*YES
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Was it because you heard it and you thought "that's the sound I've been seeking all my career"?

*Not so Much
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Also, is it redundant to use 2 of the C700S for a recording? Would be the "ultimate setup"?

*Absolutely not, I'm considering that exact setup, gotta start saving again!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Would love to know what made you guys say "I NEED THAT MIC NOW" and through that amount of dough at once for a single (great & awesome) mic.

*Since I already have a Neumann SM69 Tube, and a Royer SF-12, besides being able to adjust in post, I was looking for something a little different.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More to come, once I have some real studio time with the mic!
Old 1 week ago
  #42
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by elpillo View Post
Is it because it is easier to set up? Is it the fact that you can alter the polar-pattern after the fact?
For me these are the killer advantages. Several times I have put up my Soundfield and a pair of spaced omnis on location recordings, where the monitoring and so forth is never optimal. Pretty much every time I have been able to manipulate the polar pattern at mixdown to get better results than I could from the spaced omnis. Which is not to say that spaced omnis might not be better, if you had endless time to get the positioning right, just that in the real world the flexibility of the Soundfield is an absolute life-saver.
Old 1 week ago
  #43
Gear Nut
 
Peter Allison's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peller View Post
For me these are the killer advantages. Several times I have put up my Soundfield and a pair of spaced omnis on location recordings, where the monitoring and so forth is never optimal. Pretty much every time I have been able to manipulate the polar pattern at mixdown to get better results than I could from the spaced omnis. Which is not to say that spaced omnis might not be better, if you had endless time to get the positioning right, just that in the real world the flexibility of the Soundfield is an absolute life-saver.
like I have said before, the UK premier recording company for all things choral/church/cathedral/organ... Priory Records, used nothing else but a solitary Soundfield on ALL their 100's of commercial releases, and they recorded all over the world
Old 1 week ago
  #44
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peller View Post
For me these are the killer advantages. Several times I have put up my Soundfield and a pair of spaced omnis on location recordings, where the monitoring and so forth is never optimal. Pretty much every time I have been able to manipulate the polar pattern at mixdown to get better results than I could from the spaced omnis. Which is not to say that spaced omnis might not be better, if you had endless time to get the positioning right, just that in the real world the flexibility of the Soundfield is an absolute life-saver.
That’s my experience with the Soundfield as well!!

In addtion to adjusting the main pattern, you
can add additional decodes-e.g using “shotgun”
decode (available with Harpex plugin) “pointed”
at the vocal soloists to tweak the soloist to
orchestra balance. And since it was perfectly coincident with the “main pair” there was no phase issue or “pasted” on effect.

An additional decode could be used to capture audience singing without phase issues.

Another time, in a choral concert, one piece was
performed stage right. In mixing it sounded much
better to “rotate” the Blumlein for this piece so it was centered in the soundstage along with all the other pieces.

The flexibilty in post can also (within limits) allow tweaking of the direct to reverberant ratio.
Note that Soundfield suggests ( and I agree) that ideally you place the mic in a position where an “omni” decode gives you the correct direct to reverberant balance before adjusting to the stereo , or other, mic pattern of choice.
Old 1 week ago
  #45
Gear Maniac
 
elpillo's Avatar
 

It makes sense. A multi-capsule mic has clear advantages over single cap mics. Thanks all for commenting on this! I'll keep coming back for more answers.
Old 1 week ago
  #46
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by elpillo View Post
Also, is it redundant to use 2 of the C700S for a recording?
I have 2 C700A's and 1 C700S.

With the 700A's you can alter the polar pattern and you can also reduce/eliminate proximity effect, and you can swap which direction the mic is 'facing'. Also for doubles and backgrounds you can get a cool 'fake stereo' effect by panning the capsules left and right. I think this is awesome because it doesn't have any of the phasy sounds that a chorus/flanger/phaser/doubler does to make stereo from mono.

With the C700S you can do quite a bit more, you can decode mono, stereo, quad, MS, 5.1...you can also steer whatever array you decode and adjust MS width.

For me the steering is actually a really cool way to mix if you could afford a few of these for a session. Instead of panning, you can actually steer the front axis of the mic. You can do this AND control width, so you don't have to sacrifice one for the other. Also cool for more background parts to make the mic face away from the source, and/or, the phase between duplicated tracks is coherent, so you can use one dup that is facing away as a room mic, and the one facing the source as a direct mic.

Long story short I'd love to have a few C700S, IMO the only real downside is exporting sessions.
Old 1 week ago
  #47
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nobtwiddler's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
"I have 2 x C700A's and 1 x C700S."

OK, Ryan, I concede, you win~!

Haha
Old 1 week ago
  #48
Gear Addict
Holy crap, dude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanC View Post
I have 2 C700A's and 1 C700S.
Old 1 week ago
  #49
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Plush's Avatar
Oh my root!
Old 1 week ago
  #50
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
That’s my experience with the Soundfield as well!!

In addtion to adjusting the main pattern, you
can add additional decodes-e.g using “shotgun”
decode (available with Harpex plugin) “pointed”
at the vocal soloists to tweak the soloist to
orchestra balance. And since it was perfectly coincident with the “main pair” there was no phase issue or “pasted
An additional decode could be used to capture audience singing without phase issues.

Another time, in a choral concert, one piece was
performed stage right. In mixing it sounded much
better to “rotate” the Blumlein for this piece so it was centered in the soundstage along with all the other pieces.

The flexibilty in post can also (within limits) allow tweaking of the direct to reverberant ratio.
Note that Soundfield suggests ( and I agree) that ideally you place the mic in a position where an “omni” decode gives you the correct direct to reverberant balance before adjusting to the stereo , or other, mic pattern of choice.
This set has a b format array set up as an alt-main at the back of the orchestra. I used 3 sets of the wxyz each running into a Harpex with the shotgun focused on different ww and brass instruments.

The flute, which was buried, benefited a lot, if you dig into some of the later tracks. The flutes volume, sitting next to the clarinet, was quite a bit lower.

The success of the steering benefitted greatly from the presence of the ‘height’ track.

The shotgun mode has various levels of success limited by the distance the sounds was and if there was louder instruments closer.

Bizet by PlantLady Rec Services | Free Listening on SoundCloud

Last edited by emenelton; 1 week ago at 08:38 PM..
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