The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Advice: recording accordion & classical guitar Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 14th June 2018
  #1
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
Advice: recording accordion & classical guitar

Dear members,
I am going to record a duo of classical guitar and accordion.
After some helpful advice I decided I will record both musicians faced.
As the room has nice acoustics but it is not so big, I think I will use a spaced pair of omnis for the accordion and a spaced pair of cardioids for the guitar.
Do you have any experience that you could share recording in this way ?

Thanks, in advance
Esteban
Old 18th June 2018
  #2
Lives for gear
 

i'd use neither omnis nor spaced pairs, certainly not in the suggested combination - my pic would be x/y on accordinon and another pair (or even single cardioid) on guitar
Old 18th June 2018
  #3
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
i'd use neither omnis nor spaced pairs, certainly not in the suggested combination - my pic would be x/y on accordinon and another pair (or even single cardioid) on guitar
Yes this is reasonable. Other options if the room is not too small and with good acoustics you could try: (for these options I would have the two instruments in a shallow “V” orientation and the mics somewhat in front
1. A single ORTF pair to capture both instruments
OR
2. One omni above and in front of the accordion
and another omni above and in front of the guitar. Adjust each mic to instrument distance to get the right direct to reverberant balance and then adjust the accordion to guitar distance to
achieve pleasant bleed and stereo field but avoiding comb filtering.
(If omni’s don’t work then try cardiods.)
Old 19th June 2018
  #4
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
Yes this is reasonable. Other options if the room is not too small and with good acoustics you could try: (for these options I would have the two instruments in a shallow “V” orientation and the mics somewhat in front
1. A single ORTF pair to capture both instruments
OR
2. One omni above and in front of the accordion
and another omni above and in front of the guitar. Adjust each mic to instrument distance to get the right direct to reverberant balance and then adjust the accordion to guitar distance to
achieve pleasant bleed and stereo field but avoiding comb filtering.
(If omni’s don’t work then try cardiods.)
I think either of these approaches could work...when the OP says 'I will record both musicians faced' I assume that means facing to wards each other, rather than both side by side facing out to an audience ?

The problem with individually stereo miking each instrument is that you can end up with both instruments rendered artificially wider than they really are, and sort of 'pulled apart' ...rather than integrated. A bit like recording pianos in stereo that stretch for 5 metres from left to right !

Of course you want the total sound of the accordion (bass and treble), but not stretched...instead integrated, and this can indeed be achieved with a stereo mic further back from the pair of instruments, and a carefully placed omni mono spot for detail and roundness.
Old 19th June 2018
  #5
Lives for gear
 

...that's why i suggested using x/y as stereo spots (for this duo in a rather small room): x/y can be used as wide or narrow as needed, the accordion can get mixed a bit wider than the guitar and rear rejection of cardioids is helpfull in case musicians are facing each other and to avoid too much room pickup. and with spots, the different levels/dynamics can get adjusted better (if needed) than with just a main pair.

in my experience (lots with accordion, even more with bandoneon), an x/y doesn't have to be positioned far off the instrument, anything between 0.8-1.5m will do fine - here's a link to an upload from another thread with an accordion playing along an orchestra and the stereo-mic placed like this:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/atta...ing-cut_02.mp3

i have to admit that i prefer widely spaced cardioids or even an asymmetrical setup of a cardioid on the far right hand and a wide cardioid on the far left hand even better - on solo accordion though and it's tempting to mix it pretty wide then...
Old 19th June 2018
  #6
Lives for gear
 
James Lehmann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herman Heil View Post
I am going to record a duo of classical guitar and accordion... the room has nice acoustics
Given the last phrase (bolded for emphasis) would it be amiss to suggest you simply find the spot in the room where it sounds best and stick a pair of omnis right there?

If somehow that didn't sound how the producer/musicians want it (and we have no context as to what this recording is for), then you could add a cardioid spot close in on each instrument and mix them in to taste?

I think that's how I would start out anyway, based on the very limited information you have provided.
Old 19th June 2018
  #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herman Heil View Post
I think I will use a spaced pair of omnis for the accordion and a spaced pair of cardioids for the guitar.
Do you have any experience that you could share recording in this way ?
After making the required disclaimer that every situation is different, the above approach might work well, etc...

It seems to me that the above strategy could produce a somewhat unbalanced presentation between the two instruments. That is to say, if you are using simply a pair of spots on each instrument, with the players facing each other, and without a main pair of any kind, it seems to me that the integration may not be so good.

The accordion omni spots will pick up a significant amount of guitar. Depending on how you place the musicians, the guitar will be significantly less impacted by the accordion, and will of course be a drier pickup due to the cardioids. The stereo image impression will also be somewhat different of course. If this seems to serve the music, I can imagine it working with some careful placement, but without knowing more about the situation, my preference would be to capture both players in a somewhat similar way in terms of direct/diffuse sound ratio and these sorts of parameters.
Old 20th June 2018
  #8
Gear Head
 

Thread Starter
Hi to all and thank you for the answers.
Luke, my idea of recording both musicians facing each other has to do mostly with the significant difference of sound level between the guitar and accordion.
I want to avoid over complicated setups that, in my little experience, doesnt sound natural.
I think that if I find the right place and distances I could get a full sound of the accordion with the omnis (placed quite close and widely spaced outwards) and a reasonable presence of the guitar with the cardioids plus some room that will be captured indirectely by the accordion´s omnis.

Yesterday I had the musicians rehearsing here and we did a try. This is the recording without any adjustment of levels,
Test1 by herman | Free Listening on SoundCloud
Old 20th June 2018
  #9
Lives for gear
 
jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herman Heil View Post
Hi to all and thank you for the answers.
Luke, my idea of recording both musicians facing each other has to do mostly with the significant difference of sound level between the guitar and accordion.
I want to avoid over complicated setups that, in my little experience, doesnt sound natural.
I think that if I find the right place and distances I could get a full sound of the accordion with the omnis (placed quite close and widely spaced outwards) and a reasonable presence of the guitar with the cardioids plus some room that will be captured indirectely by the accordion´s omnis.

Yesterday I had the musicians rehearsing here and we did a try. This is the recording without any adjustment of levels,
Test1 by herman | Free Listening on SoundCloud
Personally I find the image confused - its like the accordion and the guitar are occupying the same spot in the room (I am just listening on cans from my laptop).
Perhaps some panning would help, but I suspect James Lehmann's suggestion of a pair of well placed omnis as a main pair and careful positioning of the musicians - e.g. the guitar downstage right and the accordian upstage left, while maintaining the muscians' sightlines - might yield a nice recording.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump