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that small room sound...again Reverb/Delay Processors (HW)
Old 13th June 2018
  #1
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Thread Starter
that small room sound...again

I'm looking for some 'restoration/recovery' advice for a recording made in a lively (but rather too small) room.... and without the ability to place a spot mic on the singer.

Therefore pickup was CM3 in NOS about 2.5 metres in front of the ensemble, plus a spot mic on the harpsichord.

It's got that typical boxy coloration....any ideas on remediation....perhaps eq only is possible at this stage, just to make it all a bit more open ?

Thanks in advance for any helpful ideas
Attached Files

Ensemble sample.mp3 (5.30 MB, 989 views)

Old 13th June 2018
  #2
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jnorman's Avatar
You could try deverberate by acon.
Old 13th June 2018
  #3
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Tommy-boy's Avatar
 

Un-reverb or de-reverb software - does this stuff really work? I have no experience with this but have often pondered fiddling around with it from an educational perspective. I would imagine taking reverb out would be very difficult.

I typically address reverb problems with eq and laying a better 'verb on top.

Tom
Old 13th June 2018
  #4
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i would use some eq, maybe (multiband) expander but then add efx (a little longer and/or larger) - may i ask why you went with nos in this room?

p.s. imo 'small room' sound ain't necessarily bad, but it's got to be balanced with direct sound, early reflections, large room/hall: i'm almost always using 3 effect devices with emulations of 3 different rooms, from small to large

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 14th June 2018 at 08:10 AM.. Reason: more precise
Old 13th June 2018
  #5
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
i would use some eq, maybe (multiband) expander but then add efx (longer and larger) - may i ask why you went with nos in this room?

p.s. imo 'small room' sound ain't necessarily bad, but it's got to be balanced with direct sound, early reflections, large room/hall: i'm almost always using 3 effect devices with emulations of 3 different rooms, from small to large
AB omnis would have pulled even more of the room ambience in, and I wanted to avoid that. The audience tamed a little of it, but not enough to counteract the close side walls, and also a small alcove behind the musicians that acted as an additional resonance chamber.

A pair of true cardioids would have worked a little better than the CM3's...but parallel fig 8's (which I don't have) probably would have been best to dry out the room ? Anyway...it's restoration time, no point lamenting what's past.
Old 13th June 2018
  #6
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
You could try deverberate by acon.
I'm trying out the free demo version now...seems to show some promise in this context ! Thanks Jim
Old 13th June 2018
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
I'm trying out the free demo version now...seems to show some promise in this context ! Thanks Jim
I used it to reduce the echo in a recording (of dialogue) I made in a very reverberant church; it definitely helped although there's only so much you can do. The spectral smoothing slider will help reduce artifacts, which start appearing pretty quickly.
Old 13th June 2018
  #8
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robert82's Avatar
How's this?
Attached Files

Ensemble Sample2.mp3 (3.27 MB, 777 views)

Old 13th June 2018
  #9
Gear Head
 

I took a crack at it using RX6 and then saw Robert82 already did it. Oh well here it is anyway.
The singer has a beautiful voice!
Attached Files
Old 14th June 2018
  #10
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Plush's Avatar
This is not small room sound. This is just not close sound in a poor room. Nothing is wrong with the sound since that is the sound in the room. Just go to a different place next time.

It is a better sound than many listeners would have heard when the piece was first performed. Drinking and card playing would have accompanied her singing.
Old 14th June 2018
  #11
Gear Nut
I just only notice the bad intonation and poor rhythm from the players. The singer is OK. I'm not totally put off by the room sound, but it could obviously be better.
Old 14th June 2018
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
How's this?
would you want to share what you did?
Old 14th June 2018
  #13
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Yannick's Avatar
 

Funnily, I find the original the best. Unfortunately, or ideally the mics should have been closer a little bit (but probably only a little).
(That is why I record on the dry side in these circumstances. Typically in headphones the room can be too present without noticing)

I find the performance very good (no intonation problems at all, nor sloppy rhythm ?), and the recording does not get in the way of the listening experience.

That is already 9/10 IMO. If this is just a demo, I would use a few narrow EQ to get rid of 1 or two room modes, but nothing drastic. I would certainly not add a big reverb in this case, it completely blurs the musical performance.

I find the room sound contributes nicely to the music, just a little fraction too much.
Old 14th June 2018
  #14
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Thread Starter
Thank you everyone for your replies thus far, I'm pleasantly surprised at the range of responses to the piece, and especially to robert82 and Issadore for your remediation efforts (which I'm impressed with, and would like to know more about how you achieved it)

In the interest of full disclosure, I must state here that I already tried adding a 'blurring' reverb and some eq cuts....so what I will now do is post the original, with no processing at all.

Maybe it could prove a few things (that the untouched original was best after all...or perhaps give Rx something more to work with ?)

It was an enjoyable performance (whether intonation or rhythm problems exist...it was a concert and typically the recording person is in no position to editorialize anyway !) and I simply wanted to explore the renovation possibilities, if any existed.

Without further ado...here is the basic, unadorned original:
Attached Files

Ensemble trial no effects.mp3 (5.28 MB, 630 views)

Old 14th June 2018
  #15
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robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
would you want to share what you did?
Basically, two instances each of Relab's LX480 and VSR S24 on parallel busses. The settings are stuff I've worked out through a lot of trial and error. Longest reverb time among them is about 2.5 seconds.

I find the dense modulation of the Relab plugs blends with the source better than any other plugs I've tried.

And there is an instance of Ozone 7 on the stereo buss, for a little polish.
Old 14th June 2018
  #16
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Basically, two instances each of Relab's LX480 and VSR S24 on parallel busses. The settings are stuff I've worked out through a lot of trial and error. Longest reverb time among them is about 2.5 seconds.

I find the dense modulation of the Relab plugs blends with the source better than any other plugs I've tried.

And there is an instance of Ozone 7 on the stereo buss, for a little polish.
Very polished and smooth, although the tail does sound longer than 2.5 secs...maybe it's the density that conveys that impression ? The Ozone contribution to the mix in terms of separating out the voice from the early reflections might be interacting also ?
Old 14th June 2018
  #17
Gear Head
 

I just used RX to make it "dry" so you could shine it up. Let me know if you want me to run it through for ya.
Old 14th June 2018
  #18
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Plush's Avatar
Don't fake it. A real cocksman can always tell.
Old 14th June 2018
  #19
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

That room sounds a lot like a Hollywood soundstage, so it seems pretty normal to me. Not as pretty as as a concert hall, but not odd. And not as weird as any of that "transformative" stuff.
Old 14th June 2018
  #20
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robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
That room sounds a lot like a Hollywood soundstage, so it seems pretty normal to me. Not as pretty as as a concert hall, but not odd. And not as weird as any of that "transformative" stuff.
Should I take it that adding ambience to remote classical music recordings is taboo? If it's only about some kind of sonic purity, like a musical version of no additives, no GMOs, no added sugar, then I get it. I think.
Old 14th June 2018
  #21
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Yannick's Avatar
 

It is my guilty pleasure
But to my defense, I mostly use IRs of halls I record in, or a Bricasti M7 if it works better.

Adding a sample of the hall tends to work better than a couple of hall mics in the same hall.
Old 14th June 2018
  #22
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i'm having no problem using whatever gear it takes to make the listening experience enjoyable: with all the technology involved, from mic to speakers, all of our work is 'artificial' to some extent (compared to attending a concert).
Old 15th June 2018
  #23
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Thread Starter
Even without having sought the advice of friends, as I've done in this case...I
usually come down on the side of minimal intrusion if possible.

I think that comes from knowing the original context (room, mic placement) and not wanting to stray too far from that, even if the repairs can be as 'seductive' as those provided here !

Even if it means leaving some of the less desirable artifacts intact...atonement for my sins !

What's not been commented upon is the similarity of results obtained by robert82 and Issadore (ok, reverb tail is different, but both have stripped back the voice very effectively from the room) while using quite different approaches ?

Many ways to skin a kangaroo !
Old 15th June 2018
  #24
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Should I take it that adding ambience to remote classical music recordings is taboo?
No, but doing it in a way where you can tell it's been done might not be so great.
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