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It is getting harder to find helpers for remote recordings. Recorders, Players & Tape Machines
Old 15th May 2018
  #91
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I can't say they never pay for recordings because I'd guess they do so. I was just relating my experience with two releases which came from recordings/mixes/masters already completed prior to having any contact with them. Naxos is certainly important and some of the material is top. The distribution is fab. They started out from an opportunistic angle, selling inexpensive cds at Walgreens or something like that, and have built the company into what it is now.
Old 15th May 2018
  #92
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it's a shame: we live in more or less 'rich' countries (at least compared to some other places) and we seem not to want to support professionals doing decent work any longer... - maybe it's time to get into politics?!
Old 15th May 2018
  #93
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
it's a shame: we live in more or less 'rich' countries (at least compared to some other places) and we seem not to want to support professionals doing decent work any longer... - maybe it's time to get into politics?!
Just so I'm understanding your position -- you're advocating doing to one profession the very thing you oppose in another.
Old 15th May 2018
  #94
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Plush's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swing View Post
I can't say they never pay for recordings because I'd guess they do so. I was just relating my experience with two releases which came from recordings/mixes/masters already completed prior to having any contact with them. Naxos is certainly important and some of the material is top. The distribution is fab. They started out from an opportunistic angle, selling inexpensive cds at Walgreens or something like that, and have built the company into what it is now.
The studio I worked in in the late 80's started Naxos records. Naxos hired them to record all the Naxos material mostly in Eastern Europe. In the early days average sales for each new cd was in the range of 175,000 cds.

They were not opportunistic then. They payed the musicians well and paid for production and editing and mastering at an agreed upon good commercial fee.

Now in 2018, one can be sure they will not pay anything. So not earlier, but NOW they are opportunistic. They take advantage of the artist who wants a record on the market. Meanwhile they have become the richest and the biggest.

But their new model is based on not paying the artist or the engineers.
Old 15th May 2018
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
The studio I worked in in the late 80's started Naxos records. Naxos hired them to record all the Naxos material mostly in Eastern Europe. In the early days average sales for each new cd was in the range of 175,000 cds.

They were not opportunistic then. They payed the musicians well and paid for production and editing and mastering at an agreed upon good commercial fee.

Now in 2018, one can be sure they will not pay anything. So not earlier, but NOW they are opportunistic. They take advantage of the artist who wants a record on the market. Meanwhile they have become the richest and the biggest.

But their new model is based on not paying the artist or the engineers.
Several years ago I received a Naxos form contract under which they were to pay production costs, etc. but I have not had any such deals with them, and I'd have to dig it up to refresh my memory as to exactly what it said. My only projects released through them actually support what you say.

Given the tough conditions today, it is no wonder musicians will agree to terms which don't even reimburse their substantial costs. Many self-funded, high quality projects are true labors of love, and after all the work and expense (on top of the musical talent cultivated over a lifetime of education, practice, and performances) the desire to release the work and have it accessible and heard overrides all other concerns.

Naxos understands this. They've already built a valuable catalog and they continue at a fast pace.
Old 15th May 2018
  #96
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
It could be that the $70K a year is putting pressure on kids to get through college in 4 years if not 3. One of my kids goes to a UC school with a lot of students doing engineering and pre-med and that sort of thing, and they have to really grind. No time for a job, really, or even a social life. And that place costs way less than Oberlin.
That’s true to a point... but, that’s always been the case (workload at school)... I have one monkey graduating UCSB in June doing bio science... that kid held an almost full time job the whole time... middle monkey going to school at UW Seattle and she works full time when she is on break...

Kids are generally lazier nowadays... and certainly who could blame them if the can learn how to be CLA by getting some crkked versions of plugins and watching YouTube Tutorials.
Old 16th May 2018
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swing View Post
Given the tough conditions today, it is no wonder musicians will agree to terms which don't even reimburse their substantial costs. Many self-funded, high-quality projects are true labors of love, and after all the work and expense (on top of the musical talent cultivated over a lifetime of education, practice, and performances) the desire to release the work and have it accessible and heard overrides all other concerns.

Naxos understands this. They've already built a valuable catalog and they continue at a fast pace.
Actually, I think by winning 1st place in an international competition, they automatically agree to terms they had no clue they were agreeing to. In other words, aim for 2nd if you can. You will still get money without forfeiting all your rights to the music you play. I am actually kind of mad right now...(Not at Swing, just to be clear.)

Last edited by Given To Fly; 16th May 2018 at 12:49 AM.. Reason: clarity
Old 16th May 2018
  #98
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bgood's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Over the past two years I have gotten some request to record a group in a "non traditional" "non studio" environment. Most of them have been from people who had a) no money b) no concept of what they were asking for or how much time and effort it would take.

One of the local churches has a new organ and a person wanted to do some recording of his playing. The church charges $65.00 a day for "rental" of the church. Right away the person says it is too expensive. He has a whole CD's worth of material he wants to record. Most of it is church music. I tell him what my daily rate is and I thought he was going to have a heart attack. He says "are you crazy I don't want a multi-track recording I just want a stereo recording. We haggle over the price and he finally relents. We schedule a time and date and I get setup and he starts "practicing" I ask him if he wants me to record his practice and he says no. So I sit there for 1.5 hours while he practices. Then he is ready to record. So we do the piece about three times and he says he has to practice some more. We have already used up 2.5 hour of my 10 hour daily rate and have gotten one 4 minute piece done. There is still over 70 minutes of the CD to fill. I ask him, in a very nice way, why he has to practice so much during a recording session and he says "well this is a different instrument from what I am used to playing and I have to find the right stop configuration. So we use up the 10 hours and we have about 20 minutes of the CD done. I ask him when he next wants to record and he says that he is out of money and will have to put off the rest of the recording until he can get some more money. I am still waiting for that to happen. It has been 1.5 years and I have not heard from him. I got paid and so did the church. When he wants to continue is up for grabs...I hope for his sake that the church doesn't decide to remodel or change the acoustics or we will be starting all over. All kinds of fun!

This is the type of client I seem to get but maybe it is just an "Oberlin" thing".

FWIW
Maybe he’s still at home practicing!
Old 16th May 2018
  #99
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
Maybe he’s still at home practicing!
To the best of my knowledge he does not have a pipe organ in his house. Maybe he is just trying to save up some money. My biggest fear is that we will not be able to match the sound we were getting before. I took lots of pictures and did lots of measurements but...it is still possible we will not match the sound.

This is the problem with projects that go on for months or years. Things change like a new coat of paint on the interior of the church or new pew cushions or a change in the HVAC system or the organist getting older or the organ being tuned by someone new. Lots of possible problems. I guess that is why I get paid the big bucks! <GRIN>
Old 16th May 2018
  #100
Lightbulb

Touching on a few points of discussion...
  • When I left school (2009), the best students from the best schools in the state couldn't get work, period. But did you know that Oberlin has a higher percentage of students who are the children of professors than any other school in the country? And that Oberlin also has a higher percentage of students who become professors than any other school in the countr? Now, I'm not sure that applies to the Conservatory, but if it's like the College, they are focused on post-graduate work and additional schooling, and no one is really there to become a real recording engineer. But that holds true for our local, very prestigious conservatory which happens to have both an undergrad and a grad program in recording: the students are just going through the paces at the school (and many just did it cause they couldn't think of anything better). It doesn't help that the professors themselves are not interested in connecting with working professionals. Heaven forbid the students learn something outside of the classroom!
  • Arts Laureate needs additional help/assistance. We can equip and teach. We almost never get requests from interested students (or engineers).
  • We travel anywhere for recordings, and there are other companies that also do more recordings out-of-town than in-town.
Old 16th May 2018
  #101
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorseHorse View Post
Touching on a few points of discussion...
  • When I left school (2009), the best students from the best schools in the state couldn't get work, period. But did you know that Oberlin has a higher percentage of students who are the children of professors than any other school in the country? And that Oberlin also has a higher percentage of students who become professors than any other school in the countr? Now, I'm not sure that applies to the Conservatory, but if it's like the College, they are focused on post-graduate work and additional schooling, and no one is really there to become a real recording engineer. But that holds true for our local, very prestigious conservatory which happens to have both an undergrad and a grad program in recording: the students are just going through the paces at the school (and many just did it cause they couldn't think of anything better). It doesn't help that the professors themselves are not interested in connecting with working professionals. Heaven forbid the students learn something outside of the classroom!
  • Arts Laureate needs additional help/assistance. We can equip and teach. We almost never get requests from interested students (or engineers).
  • We travel anywhere for recordings, and there are other companies that also do more recordings out-of-town than in-town.
Oberlin prides itself in that 80% off all graduates (no differentiation between college and conservatory that I know of) go on to graduate schools.

I know your work and have always thought you were one of the best when it came to remote recordings. It is too bad people don't want to learn from you.

We offered a three hour three week course intro to Audio Mastering. We got ZERO takers from the college or con. They were either not interested or they already knew it all from watching YouTube.

Students at Oberlin will go to inordinate length to learn from the professors enduring boring lectures and being overworked in all their courses but don't seem to want to learn from anyone without a PhD or anyone who works with their hands (except art students).

I once got a one half hour lecture from the con professor about people who "work with their hands" and this was from a professor of piano - I failed to see the difference but he was quick to point out that people who work with their hands are normally not as intelligent as people who work with their minds. Of course when his home stereo system crapped out I got called to fix it.

There is a lot of snobbery that goes on in elite private colleges. One professor told his voice students that if he caught any of them singing in "musicals" or singing "pop" songs he would banish them from his studio. Nice guy.

I guess I am just not finding the right people to help me. I guess I need to go to places where they "work with their hands".
Old 16th May 2018
  #102
Universities in general exist inside their own world, rarely chancing contact with outside entities. One major university here forbids any outside musicians or engineers from using their performance facilities, and another is in the process of making it so difficult and expensive, most will not try any more. What makes it worse is that these facilities were generously donated by a late billionaire and patron of the arts. So after being recipients of such generosity, they turn around and horde it like misers. I cannot think of one professor at that school who actually performs in the community either. They are a reclusive sort.
Old 16th May 2018
  #103
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Sad to hear all this, but not unexpected.... as education becomes increasingly commodified and price-tagged.

If students were encouraged to drink broadly from the well-spring of diverse ideas and community experiences...that's somehow equated with a feared devaluation of the principal conduit or source of 'valued' knowledge (ie the college/university)

So of course they're going to keep their hands firmly on the tap/faucet...and keep alive the pretense of a single, controlled & regulated source of information, to be derived from themselves alone.

Fear of loss of sustained student fees income drives most of this ....whereas this forum (for example) is fully open-source and generous (and thus simultaneously 'worthless'...as judged by the aforementioned exclusivity criteria )
Old 16th May 2018
  #104
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I guess some music schools may be "hoarding" their venues in some way etc. The problem here is now one of economics: the booking of the halls was taken away from the music schools and became part of an overall "facility management department", who is looking to pull in large $ by renting space to corporate retreats, meetings etc etc, and have reduced the availability of even the music school's own concert hall to its own students and teachers drastically. Basically, they run the show now, and times when we used to be able to get those rooms for numbers of days (like during term breaks) are now prime time for the corporate folks. The schools desperately need money, I understand what they are doing, but what was once a resource for the whole local music community is now a cash cow for the institution that owns it. This corporate meeting thing has also affected local dance and music organizations ability to rent public concert venues, even ones whose original purpose was providing a "home court" for these established local groups. The venues don't want to commit to dates if they know a big convention by a big tech co might be going around that time--the companies wait until the last minute to book, but then money is no object, and etc..
Old 16th May 2018
  #105
In order to sell a product it first must have value. Location audio-only recordings have little or no value. It's not 1979.

I'd listen to the Gambler: "You got to know when to hold 'um, know when to fold 'um".
Old 16th May 2018
  #106
Gear Maniac
 

I have no knowledge of the universities in the USA, but these last few posts do not match my knowledge of the UK at all. I used to work at the University of Reading (incidentally running a self-financing unit employing non-academic professionals) and now work as a consultant for four colleges at my alma mater, Oxford, and at Cambridge. You might think the last two would be rather elitist (coming first and second in the T.H.E. ranking of world universities for 2018), but there are numerous programmes increasing community engagement and access: the 135-year old and thriving Department of Continuing Education at Oxford is one I know well, and delivers all sorts of short and evening courses and events to non-university communities, with many - if not most - lectures and courses delivered by professionals from outside the university. And at a practical level relevant to the discussion, I know the Holywell Music Room and the Sheldonian can be hired by anyone as, indeed, can the many college chapels with their exquisite acoustics.

Cheers,

Roland
Old 16th May 2018
  #107
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorseHorse View Post
Touching on a few points of discussion...
  • Arts Laureate needs additional help/assistance. We can equip and teach. We almost never get requests from interested students (or engineers).
  • We travel anywhere for recordings, and there are other companies that also do more recordings out-of-town than in-town.
I can stand to hear some more...
Old 16th May 2018
  #108
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A good many photographers try to position themselves as both local and "destination" photographers because they don't want to miss either market segment.
Old 16th May 2018
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
In order to sell a product it first must have value. Location audio-only recordings have little or no value. It's not 1979.

I'd listen to the Gambler: "You got to know when to hold 'um, know when to fold 'um".
This isn't true. I have no video capabilities, and still do plenty of location music recordings, like for money. What's changed is the nature of the recordings: for live concerts video seems to be wanted a lot, it is true. But we pretty much got out of that business awhile ago--we make albums on location these days, mostly; no audience present, no lighting and so on.
Old 16th May 2018
  #110
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the situation is wastly different in europe: universities are publicy funded, orchestras to a large degree, most concert halls, cathedrals and churches are open to whoever wants to rent them for a concert, we got many great mic manufacturers just around the corner, we just celebrated the discovery of lsd (75 years ago)...
Old 17th May 2018
  #111
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Earcatcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by philper View Post
This isn't true. I have no video capabilities, and still do plenty of location music recordings, like for money. What's changed is the nature of the recordings: for live concerts video seems to be wanted a lot, it is true. But we pretty much got out of that business awhile ago--we make albums on location these days, mostly; no audience present, no lighting and so on.
I see similar options overhere: there is no money in live recordings. Even with video nobody wants to pay a realistic sum, unless it is for a major broadcaster, but they wheel in their own big crew. I have a lot of video equipment but don't use it for music, except for filming the promo/making-of of the album recording. (Outside of that I do more video work, which pays for owning the equipment, but this is never music related.)

On the other hand: I see a growing market in high quality music groups that want to publish their own performances on an album, so that they can sell them online and with their concerts. That's where the opportunities for location recordists are currently. A concert the musicians can record with their own Zoom recorder, but a recording for public release is something most real musicians understand they can't make themselves. Of course these self produced recordings are moderately payed for, as musicians don't have very much to spend, generally, but there are also much better chances of building a good relationship when closely working with the musicians than when working for a label.

Two weeks ago I was recording an album project for a label that specialises in early music, but I never was in touch with that label at all. The musicians were asked to record with them, but they chose to pick their own recordist to work with, which was me. The label said "Fine, this is the budget; send us the mastered tracks when you are done". Had the label been in full control I would never have done this recording. So for anyone trying to work in location music recording I recommend to build good relationships with talented musicians, who are likely to need their own top quality showcase recordings at some point. Sometimes I do a concert recording, but this is always in preparation of an album recording of the same program material, so we can evaluate all aspects before we head out to do a recording in a selected remote location. I don't charge separately for such a concert recording (which is mostly done with minimal equipment).
Old 17th May 2018
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumleymusic View Post
Universities in general exist inside their own world, rarely chancing contact with outside entities. One major university here forbids any outside musicians or engineers from using their performance facilities, and another is in the process of making it so difficult and expensive, most will not try any more. What makes it worse is that these facilities were generously donated by a late billionaire and patron of the arts. So after being recipients of such generosity, they turn around and horde it like misers. I cannot think of one professor at that school who actually performs in the community either. They are a reclusive sort.
I am pretty sure I know at least one of the universities you are referring to because I have been to it. The music school is rather specialized and the recital hall is a true "gem." I would never describe my experiences there as particularly "welcoming." In fact, it almost feels like they have forgotten they are part of a university, except when it comes to money. Academia can never have enough money. One of the roles of a professor now is "fundraiser" which none of them really agreed to be. It creates many awkward situations that do not make any sense, your example of the performance facilities being a good one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Earcatcher View Post
On the other hand: I see a growing market in high quality music groups that want to publish their own performances on an album, so that they can sell them online and with their concerts. That's where the opportunities for location recordists are currently. A concert the musicians can record with their own Zoom recorder, but a recording for public release is something most real musicians understand they can't make themselves. Of course these self produced recordings are moderately payed for, as musicians don't have very much to spend, generally, but there are also much better chances of building a good relationship when closely working with the musicians than when working for a label.
I think this is an accurate observation.
Old 17th May 2018
  #113
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
Interesting to see the differences between Europe and the "colonies" here in the US of A.

Churches in this area used to be available for free or for a small "janitorial fee" but now they want $$$.$$ for using them especially if it is for something that will make money. There is a beautiful church near hear with a GREAT tracker action organ and some really GREAT acoustics. I did a LOT of chamber music recordings there and the pastor was always very helpful and kind. She left to take a different post and her replacement decided that the church was a church and not a concert venue and forbade its former usage as a recording venue. We had always donated $200 for the use of the church and the church's pastor was always thankful.

I guess we are seeing more and more "capitalism" taking over the non profit sector and the venues that used to be free are now asking people to pay "big bucks" for their use. I know the local college is trying to attract more and more paying clients from the corporate world and even recently replaced their old "Inn" and made it into the Hotel at Oberlin CONFERENCE CENTER to attract more corporate clients. (From what I hear it is not working as there is no "night life", especially in the summer, for conference attendees to enjoy. A renovated movie theater and walks in the square are not what most conference attendees want).

I again go back to history. In the beginning there seemed to be a lot of people who needed our services but now with the growth of the DIY generation and the putting of everything "on line" instead of producing a physical media our multitude of services are no longer needed. I am cool with that but it is hard to keep a business going when no one seems to need your services. My current intern has come up with some innovative ideas and we have seen our web presence go up 20 fold or more. I am hopeful that this will get us more clients. Always hopeful...
Old 17th May 2018
  #114
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Tommy-boy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
How about a motivated and interested parent or grandparent of one of the youth orchestra players....they are likely to have an interest in the job being done well, have driving ability, people-skills and the dependability/resourcefulness already acquired as an adult working for an employer or themselves (self-employed) ?

Initially you might want them just at setup and pack-up times (the time-critical periods, where additional competent pairs of hands are most needed), and if they show additional interest in 'the whole process' they could become involved in monitoring, gain-setting etc later, as their skills increase.
I would suggest a twist on Studer58's suggestion. Instead of you paying them, have them pay you. Pitch it as an audio learning course with real live on the job experience. Go after parents, grandparents, students, or anybody else you can get into the program.

Spend some time upfront educating them on mic techniques, equipment handling, etc...

If you find somebody you want to hang onto, then convert to a normal job slot.

As for the potential concern about creating competitors - I wouldn't worry about it. This approach also may end up getting your name out to more places and creating potentially more referrals.

-Tom
Old 17th May 2018
  #115
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Tommy-boy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
All good ideas as usual.
...
A lot of the parents I have met in this town are commonly referred to as "helicopter" parents and want to be "involved in what their young people are doing" to the point where I think they would be more of a hindrance than a help in setting up for a concert. One parent of young person from one of the groups we were recording, trying to be helpful, closed (slammed) down the top of our cable case and in so doing ruined 4 cables by pinching them in the aluminum extrusion. Some of these were "custom cables" and cost me a lot of money to get remade. They were "just trying to be helpful but..." but it was really not worth it. When I asked them why the closed the case they said "we were afraid that someone would step in it or fall into it" for a 2 ft by 2 ft by 3 ft road case I thought that a bit over protective.
...
I don't think this is a valid reason not to hire parents. I think it just means you need to spend time upfront setting expectations.
Old 17th May 2018
  #116
Quote:
Originally Posted by philper View Post
This isn't true. I have no video capabilities, and still do plenty of location music recordings, like for money. What's changed is the nature of the recordings: for live concerts video seems to be wanted a lot, it is true. But we pretty much got out of that business awhile ago--we make albums on location these days, mostly; no audience present, no lighting and so on.
San Francisco is very expensive. Do you make enough to buy a home and live there? My nephew makes well over $100k per year there but must rent as a house like mine would cost about 3 million there.
Old 17th May 2018
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
San Francisco is very expensive. Do you make enough to buy a home and live there? My nephew makes well over $100k per year there but must rent as a house like mine would cost about 3 million there.

I know exactly how expensive it is. Have a home. Live here. Raised and educated 2 kids thru university, financed by work as a location sound recordist. So I guess it can be done? BTW, I'm not the only one! I'm told there are recordists making a go of it in other expensive cities as well: NYC, LA, Paris, London, Hong Kong, etc, or at least they told me they were!

Last edited by philper; 17th May 2018 at 09:28 PM..
Old 17th May 2018
  #118
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy-boy View Post
I would suggest a twist on Studer58's suggestion. Instead of you paying them, have them pay you. Pitch it as an audio learning course with real live on the job experience. Go after parents, grandparents, students, or anybody else you can get into the program.

Spend some time upfront educating them on mic techniques, equipment handling, etc...

If you find somebody you want to hang onto, then convert to a normal job slot.

As for the potential concern about creating competitors - I wouldn't worry about it. This approach also may end up getting your name out to more places and creating potentially more referrals.

-Tom
I have never lived in a place like Oberlin. I came from a more conservative Midwestern city with much different set of values from what I have encountered during my 49 years of living here.

Many people here work for the local college either as a professor or as a "worker bee". The college provides its students, staff and faculty with everything they want or need. They do not have to go outside the college for anything from getting themselves recorded or having a CD made, to getting signs and announcements printed (10 reams of paper per student per year) or burning DVDs on the college's computers which they tie together and burn multiple DVDs or CDs. It is like a tech play land.

Because of the high tuition room and board ($70K next year) many of the students here come from very wealthy parents and expect to be waited on hand and foot. The college provides all the services so that they can justify continually raising their prices. So what does that have to do with parents? Well those same "worker bees" are also parents. They don't have to do anything because the college provides it all. So any attempt to have them help meets with "why, I can get the college to do that". I have tried and it falls on deaf ears. If you are given everything for free why in he!! would you want to pay for it??? it is hard to explain the mind set here to someone who has not lived here for a time. It is completely skewed from what most people would consider "normal".

FWIW
Old 17th May 2018
  #119
Gear Nut
 
Uncle Russ's Avatar
Even though this discussion has gone on for days, nobody has raised the key issue: Music no longer is an industry even though some people earn a living from it and a few may earn a very good living. Realistically, most of us must deal with anything music related as part time work or as a hobby and the newer you are in the field the more difficult it will be. Everything in the above posts in some way reflects that fact.

Our world has become less commercial and more political. Audio engineers and the musicians they record no longer are as necessary as in the past. Being likable or popular now is as important as being professional, competent, or talented. Everyone must recognize that and find his own way to deal with it.
Old 17th May 2018
  #120
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Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Russ View Post
Even though this discussion has gone on for days, nobody has raised the key issue: Music no longer is an industry even though some people earn a living from it and a few may earn a very good living. Realistically, most of us must deal with anything music related as part time work or as a hobby and the newer you are in the field the more difficult it will be. Everything in the above posts in some way reflects that fact.

Our world has become less commercial and more political. Audio engineers and the musicians they record no longer are as necessary as in the past. Being likable or popular now is as important as being professional, competent, or talented. Everyone must recognize that and find his own way to deal with it.
You are so right...

Back in the "olde days" musicians were not paid very well and if you go back far enough musicians were paid by the lord of the manor or the king or queen and were basically used as background music providers. Skip ahead a few centuries and musicians were also not paid very well but could make enough to eek out a basic existence without having to be beholden to anyone. Come up to the 1900 and beyond and some musicians started to become household words and celebrities. Then in the 1940s to the 1980s musicians came into their own and some were paid very well for their music. Then came the 2000s and it all started to go to he!!. Jump to 2018 and we are sliding backwards when music is not worth anything because anyone can download anything without paying for it so music has completely lost its value. Not a pretty picture.

FWIW
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