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Stero pair to record classical music Condenser Microphones
Old 3rd June 2018
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
b. even if the M microphone becomes increasingly omni at LF, you then still have a omni + fig8 to produce L and R signals. Why would this be mono ?
Because the capsules are concident, at LF, there is no phase or amplitude difference between the channels, and no output at all at very LF.
Old 3rd June 2018
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
The diffuse field reverb occurs the same anywhere in the hall...
if you'd set up a circular array of identical speakers in the center of a symmetrical room, yes - with an ensemble/orchestra on one side in a shoe box, njet!

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
It's the ratio of direct sound to this reverb that changes with distance.
i'm with you on that.

now what? do you get the same sound/capture of reverb on stage as at the rear of the hall? fine for you, i don't! (due to the second argument you brought up and on which we agree). i cannot find any better place to get reverb than in the back of the room; that's where i mostly use omni mics (b&k 4007 in wide a/b).

it comes with a price though which is noise from the audience...

i therefore can easily understand than one does not want to waste time for setup, run cables throughout a hall, put up expensive mics, pres, converters, use additional tracks, disc space etc. only to get some noisy tracks that cannot be used in a mix - but even if i don't get to use them, they give me a pretty good idea on how to tweak my quantec to emulate what someone in rear of the hall would hear... (to me those mics are so important that
if i cannot put mics there, i do rather not record!)

same for two other positions in the hall if i'm getting the option: at foh/mid room and on the sides of the stage (for practical reasons)/somewhere in the first three rows when recording in an empty hall.

if i cannot use mics there, no big deal and i'll use two additional efx devices with different settings trying to emulate these positions.
Old 4th June 2018
  #123
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Plush's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
You know this as true Plush, even as you continue to poo-poo it. Sometimes, omnis are NOT the best choice for a main pair pickup. So what is the point of your post?

D.
Garbage, and you don’t read my posts carefully. I stated that a beginner should learn to master two microphone technique with cardioid mics. Very experienced engineers get to work in great halls so they can use omni mics in those good acoustics.

Most of what is written here in the last 20 posts is garbage. It is totally inaccurate.
Old 4th June 2018
  #124
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tourtelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
The famous Philips superengineer, Onno Scholtze once asked me if I used a "real" microphone.
I answered yes.

Onno meant an omni mic, such as the Schoeps MK2--the best capsule in the whole wide world.
I respectfully disagree. I'd say that you don't post carefully.

D.
Old 4th June 2018
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
i cannot find any better place to get reverb than in the back of the room; that's where i mostly use omni mics (b&k 4007 in wide a/b)
Do you delay the main pair with respect to the back of room omni mics ..I'm curious, as I'm assuming that you would otherwise get the main (dry) sound followed by a slap delay, contingent on the number of metres from front to back of hall ?
Old 4th June 2018
  #126
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Yannick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Because the capsules are concident, at LF, there is no phase or amplitude difference between the channels, and no output at all at very LF.
still don't agree. If we agree crossed fig8 mics can have stereo separation down to 20Hz, then I fail to see why the identical fig8 side mic cannot deliver the S information to the matrix. This has nothing to do with the characteristic of the M mic.

There is of course an amplitude difference if the LF source is not in the center.

edit: I could check later this week in my mastering room if I can measure something. If I can do that in a small room, it should obviously work in a 8000m3 hall.
Old 4th June 2018
  #127
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Yannick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Do you delay the main pair with respect to the back of room omni mics ..I'm curious, as I'm assuming that you would otherwise get the main (dry) sound followed by a slap delay, contingent on the number of metres from front to back of hall ?
That is why I do not use omni hall mics.
Old 4th June 2018
  #128
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Yannick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Very experienced engineers get to work in great halls so they can use omni mics in those good acoustics.

Most of what is written here in the last 20 posts is garbage. It is totally inaccurate.
25 years would you call that experience ? I work in great halls regularly, and still rarely use omnis.

I can understand you feel attacked by opposed views. But I do not call your opinion garbage, nor did I call your recordings garbage.

Sometimes it helps to keep an open mind. If one of you can come along for the next production and show me how to use an omni mic properly, I will happily use that technique for the next 25 years. I have no problem with that at all.

I suggest we open another thread for this garbage, and maybe for other more general easthetics garbage. Then others have the option not to read or subscribe.
Old 4th June 2018
  #129
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James Lehmann's Avatar
 

We are stuck in the usual Escher-esque, never-ending, downward spiral of "X is better than Y".

Welcome to Gearslutz!

What I say is this:

If you were teaching a course on classical recording* over a period of weeks it seems to me inconceivable that after giving your students some basic background on microphone recording techniques, you wouldn't then set them a variety of recording assignments in a variety of spaces with a variety of microphones in a variety of configurations.

Never mind that you might not be able to furnish them with a pair of vintage Neumann M49s/M50s each and/or give them access to the Concertgebouw.

Very reasonable gear can be had relatively cheaply these days, and the world is made up of an almost infinite number of different spaces and environments.

Go forth and try stuff out - come back - discuss - learn - try again.

Isn't that how we all started out?

What is so hard for us to agree on?

Why do people get so defensive?

Why am I writing this post?

What is the meaning of life?


* I accept this isn't the (now long-departed) OP's question (which was extremely vague anyway) but the thread has morphed and we seem to be more on a general 'what should you learn with' type tip now...

Last edited by James Lehmann; 4th June 2018 at 11:17 AM..
Old 4th June 2018
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
do you get the same sound/capture of reverb on stage as at the rear of the hall? fine for you, i don't! (due to the second argument you brought up and on which we agree). i cannot find any better place to get reverb than in the back of the room; that's where i mostly use omni mics (b&k 4007 in wide a/b).
You get the same reverb sound at the back of the stage to the back of the hall. I know its hard to believe, but its by definition. The reverb field develops a constant sound pressure level right through the hall independent of position.

I have given up placing room mics for reverb, as repositioning the main pair to pickup the correct direct to reverb ratio results in a much better unambiguous sound. In other words I prefer to pickup the hall reverb with the main pair.
Old 4th June 2018
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Do you delay the main pair with respect to the back of room omni mics ..I'm curious, as I'm assuming that you would otherwise get the main (dry) sound followed by a slap delay, contingent on the number of metres from front to back of hall ?
if the hall is large enough, the absence of direct sound and the diffusion lead to an image that the tracks of the rear ambient mics are not necessarily getting perceived as an audible slap delay (i do not use diffuse sound field correction, i feel the hf roll off to be closer to the listening experience), so i do not always delay rear ambi mics - mostly i do, not by use of a simple time delay but the use of speaker processors...

(for their ability to phase align singnals in multiple frequency areas: the goal is not to blur the stereo or surround image from the main directional mic system by introducing multiple phase shifts but to add phase coherent room/reverb sound; i do the same with spot mics - love my lake processors!)

...but i have to admit that it's way faster to just add some artificial reverb!

all these different delay techniques can yield nice results; i tend to prefer a sound image with the highest possible directional information and rather dislike those 'round blurred clouds'.
Old 4th June 2018
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
You get the same reverb sound at the back of the stage to the back of the hall. I know its hard to believe, but its by definition. The reverb field develops a constant sound pressure level right through the hall independent of position.

I have given up placing room mics for reverb, as repositioning the main pair to pickup the correct direct to reverb ratio results in a much better unambiguous sound. In other words I prefer to pickup the hall reverb with the main pair.
fair enough - i do not.

i'm using mostly directional mics close to the source and less directional mics the further away i go, up to omnidirectional mics in the place where i get the least amount of direct sound.

(without insisting on my view or trying to endlessly continue our prior argument, i'd like to mention that my observations are based on measuring countless speaker systems in multiple places in all kind of venues; while it's mostly eq response and phase behaviour that's of interest, i also get to measure rt60/reverb time - maybe we should have been using more precise terms before: yes, rt60/reverb time is the same throughout the room! my point though is that the amount of reverb is getting perceived differently in various places inside a room due to the presence/absence of direct sound)

now let's go back to our most/least favourite technique (and sound we get)!

Last edited by deedeeyeah; 4th June 2018 at 12:42 PM.. Reason: edited
Old 4th June 2018
  #133
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Plush's Avatar
It seems that some posters here argue for not recording the full frequency sound spectrum. Why record in hi-res if you leave out the bottom octave and the extended treble above 30kHz?

This is a modern problem where recordists work in a vacuum without ever having a mentor.

Also some posters posit to use omni mics at distance and cardioid mics closer in. This is often opposite to proper practice.

Then posters talk of delaying the mics??? It turns out it is a poor practice borne of a math calculation instead of a listening call.

If your omni mic sound is diffuse, you are in the wrong place. If you move 1.7 times as close you will have the same direct / diffuse sound as a cardioid.

If your omni mic is too bright, you must be using a boosted treble correction mic.

Then I see pictures of some poster’s listening / edit rooms with small monitors. No wonder they didn’t record the bass. They can’t hear any bass in those rooms. Get onto some big speakers with real full range playback.

My adamant talk and my earlier posts arguing for using cardioid mics has to do with new practitioners learning stereo mic techniques and all its variations. Then they can decide for themselves if they prefer coincident mic sound, semi-coincident, A-B German spaced cardioid mic sound, ORTF, NOS, etc.

I say that the beginner should only record with two mics for 2-3 years. They have to master the anchored main pair. Then later they can add the omni mics.
Old 4th June 2018
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I say that the beginner should only record with two mics for 2-3 years. They have to master the anchored main pair. Then later they can add the omni mics.
I agree with this, as 2 mics alone can get a beginner into plenty enough trouble...whether they be omni, cardioid, fig 8 or wide-cardioid.

Hopefully an intrinsic part of the beginner's learning curve is wrangling the competing requirements for SRA, getting enough ambience vs direct sound, placement in a real room with a real audience (and having to make concessions and sacrifices in mic placement accordingly), dealing with ambient air-con and traffic noise, front-back depth + variable ensemble size, contending with less than ideal acoustics, etc and on.

The same highwire juggling/balancing act between all these variables is just as pertinent whether one begins with an omni or ORTF pair...although the ORTF is almost certainly more forgiving of 'approximately optimal placement', AB omnis arguably less so.

To state that one should begin with one or the other approach is just as condescending as saying that one or the other is a 'superior' method...clearly both have their place, according to the particular prevailing conditions of the event and space. Perhaps similar to saying that the Suzuki method is the only correct path toward mastery of an instrument ?
Old 4th June 2018
  #135
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Yannick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
You get the same reverb sound at the back of the stage to the back of the hall. I know its hard to believe, but its by definition. The reverb field develops a constant sound pressure level right through the hall independent of position.
I know this is common knowledge and follows the definition of reverberant soundfield. But it is not correct. It is only correct for an idealised simplified model of an acoustic space. And then still, near room boundaries the situation cannot be identical to free space.

I work in a classical shoebox very often. The stage is 35% of the hall, and almost completely reflective. The hall is at least 50% absorbant (carpet, upholstered seats, curved balconies). If you stand in the middle of the hall and someone plays a short sound on stage, you can clearly hear where the reverb comes from.

One day I will invite a bunch of acoustics engineers and measure. I had this discussion years ago on the acoustics forum, about critical distance and reverberant field (in small rooms). To this day to 99% of acousticians there is a huge difference between small rooms and large rooms, which stems from this very severe and simplified definition.
Old 4th June 2018
  #136
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Yannick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
It seems that some posters here argue for not recording the full frequency sound spectrum. Why record in hi-res if you leave out the bottom octave and the extended treble above 30kHz?
I never said that. One should buy decent mics and record to 15 Hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
This is a modern problem where recordists work in a vacuum without ever having a mentor.
So, your mentor started his career with mics&recording media that went above 30KHz ?
I fully agree that in those days the LF response of directional mics was severely flawed. IMO that is where this nonsense comes from.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Then posters talk of delaying the mics??? It turns out it is a poor practice borne of a math calculation instead of a listening call.
I have not had one instance where delaying spots did not have a significant impact on the quality/clarity of the mix. Unless they are solo mics and one is doing funny stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Then I see pictures of some poster’s listening / edit rooms with small monitors. No wonder they didn’t record the bass. They can’t hear any bass in those rooms. Get onto some big speakers with real full range playback.
That shall be me. I am still looking for a picture of your control room, can you send one ?
My system is quite linear to 17Hz in-room thank you !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I say that the beginner should only record with two mics for 2-3 years. They have to master the anchored main pair. Then later they can add the omni mics.
Here I agree 100%
EDIT: I did that - stubbornly - for at least 10 years.

Last edited by Yannick; 4th June 2018 at 01:41 PM.. Reason: forgot the stubborn part
Old 4th June 2018
  #137
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Plush's Avatar
Problems with understanding the English language for non native speakers is natural and forgiven here. But one has to read carefully and use critical thinking. So none of the confrontational stuff stuff written above makes any sense.

I have nothing to prove and your posts for many years have been oddly filled with ego driven cockeyed pronouncements. And no you don't have any deep bass in that room.

I use a PMC super stack monitor system. That's what I use. Big and Tall--an English super monitor stack.
Old 4th June 2018
  #138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
.... and your posts for many years have been oddly filled with ego driven cockeyed pronouncements....
Pot, call your kettle.
Old 4th June 2018
  #139
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Plush's Avatar
I don’t give cockeyed advice.
Indeed, I receive hundreds of PM’s here on GS thanking me for my advice and discussion.

Let’s keep the Remote forum a quality place.
Old 4th June 2018
  #140
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Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
To state that one should begin with one or the other approach is just as condescending...
It's not even slightly condescending. He's giving you the benefit of his decades of experience, both in recording and in mentoring others. That's what teachers do; that's what I want from a teacher (don't we all?) when I want to learn something.
Old 4th June 2018
  #141
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Yannick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I don’t give cockeyed advice.
Indeed, I receive hundreds of PM’s here on GS thanking me for my advice and discussion.

Let’s keep the Remote forum a quality place.
Maybe not. But each and every time you are confronted with an opposing view, you respond in a very predictable, personal and insulting way.

This alone takes away all your credibility.

I could not care less how many positive PMs you get, as long as you keep doing this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Problems with understanding the English language for non native speakers is natural and forgiven here.
I have zero problems reading any English literary or scientific text. Starting from Shakespeare to more recent scriptures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I have nothing to prove and your posts for many years have been oddly filled with ego driven cockeyed pronouncements. And no you don't have any deep bass in that room.
I have nothing to prove to you as well, and yes I do have deep bass in my room. I do not see any PMC system going well below 20 Hz, which is what I have, in-room. I can easily feel (recorded) streetcars passing by, sub 20Hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I use a PMC super stack monitor system. That's what I use. Big and Tall--an English super monitor stack.
That may be true, my speakers come from a Belgian hell-hole, my subs are made in the USA. Much like french fries with mayo on top.
My Harbeth monitors are presse papiers in the meanwhile.
Anyway, I have a really big recording button.
Old 4th June 2018
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Let’s keep the Remote forum a quality place.
...then get a grip, stop your arrogant comments and contribute in a constructive way rather than repeatedly spit at others and make wrong assuptions!
Old 4th June 2018
  #143
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Let’s keep the Remote forum a quality place.
Hudson, let's keep the discussion flow...
(I remember: Was nice to meet you 2016 in Cologne!)

Being an omni-recordist myself I am quite interested in other people's different thinking here. I never liked MS as it always felt for me somehow mono-ish, but maybe there are ways to avoid this? Doesn't Jared Sacks of Channel Classics also use MS for big orchestra?

Regarding the original question of this thread: I am convinced a beginner will have better results with cardioids, at least with quality ones (e.g. MK4, 8040). Omnis still feel more "real" to me, while they are more difficult to place - but that's why we are pros, right...?

Ulrich
Old 4th June 2018
  #144
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Plush's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
...then get a grip, stop your arrogant comments and contribute in a constructive way rather than repeatedly spit at others and make wrong assuptions!
Laugahable from both of you. Both of you are in your own land.

Oh well

Let’s keep the Remote Forum a quality place.
Old 4th June 2018
  #145
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...do you start seeing a pattern?!

so far, i only felt the need for ignoring some folks in the live sound forum; congratulation on being the first one in this 'quality place' that you are deliberately derailing!
Old 5th June 2018
  #146
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esldude's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I don’t give cockeyed advice.
Indeed, I receive hundreds of PM’s here on GS thanking me for my advice and discussion.

Let’s keep the Remote forum a quality place.
So where and how would you use a pair of figure 8's?
Old 5th June 2018
  #147
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Now that we've all taken the opportunity to exercise egos, strut upon the stage, nail our individual predilections for recording in stereo to the mast...and comprehensively frightened off the original poster with our acrimony and bad tempers...is it possible to concede that:

1) there is no single universally agreed-upon method for recording commercial, aesthetically satisfying and realistic stereo sound

2) that while we might all tend to default to preferred methods out of habit, familiarity, or limited access to microphones...there are many possible paths to good stereo. To denigrate or elevate one above another is to invalidate other approaches which might well produce equally successful recordings

3) that there is no universal agreement between radio or internet broadcasters, record/CD companies, listening audiences or musicians/conductors as to which approach produces the most satisfying or realistic stereo in every occasion

It's befitting for those of us with considerable experience in recording to share this with those seeking it...and to acknowledge the existence and validity of alternate approaches. At the very least defend your advocacy of a particular method with concrete (ie audio) samples....and not mere rant and hyperbole.

It seems paradoxical that we can acknowledge the existence of alternative methods, yet not view these differences dispassionately (and perhaps even allow that we might adopt them ourselves, on occasion ?)

If we were 20 surgeons in the operating room, it's very likely there could be 21 opinions of the 'best way' to approach the surgery. The skill is in having a live and cured patient at the end of the procedure ...that is the goal. Alive and humbled vs right...and dead

Let's also concede that sometimes, under sub-optimal recording conditions, we sometimes have to "do what it takes" to salvage a usable recording...and that might mean adopting some of the very methods we might (in other circumstances) disdain ?

It would be great if some of this cranial energy could be creatively channelled towards coming up with entirely new stereo recording techniques (eg Earcatcher's array) for the benefit of all.....as clearly we're saddled with imperfect tools with which to aspire towards perfection

Oh well, that's enough cheese-making for today https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xLUEMj6cwA

Last edited by studer58; 5th June 2018 at 11:07 AM..
Old 5th June 2018
  #148
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James Lehmann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Now that we've all taken the opportunity to exercise egos, strut upon the stage, nail our individual predilections for recording in stereo to the mast...and comprehensively frightened off the original poster with our acrimony and bad tempers...is it possible to concede that:

1) there is no single universally agreed-upon method for recording commercial, aesthetically satisfying and realistic stereo sound

2) that while we might all tend to default to preferred methods out of habit, familiarity, or limited access to microphones...there are many possible paths to good stereo. To denigrate or elevate one above another is to invalidate other approaches which might well produce equally successful recordings

3) that there is no universal agreement between radio or internet broadcasters, record/CD companies, listening audiences or musicians/conductors as to which approach produces the most satisfying or realistic stereo in every occasion
This is far too wise and civilised a post - normal service will resume shortly.

It is not 'possible to concede' anything and I disagree with all of it.
Old 5th June 2018
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lehmann View Post
This is far too wise and civilised a post - normal service will resume shortly.

It is not 'possible to concede' anything and I disagree with all of it.
Quite right James, this was just the Halftime break at the SuperBowl...and well said in the tradition of "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it". Let the baying and baiting begin anew...
Old 5th June 2018
  #150
Well this whole discussion is going into the crapper fast. WOW. The discussion started off so nice and degraded into bedlam fairly quickly. This forum is starting to remind me of the GS mastering forum. Too many people pushing their "agenda" and failing to listen to anyone else's point of view. Too bad!
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