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Sound Devices Announces MixPre-10M "For Musicians" Recorders, Players & Tape Machines
Old 24th June 2018
  #241
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 View Post
Not present at 96/48/44.1kHz.

Cheers,

Roland
There's a discussion of this ultrasonic noise problem at this Sound Devices forum:

Sound Devices public group | Facebook

According to one person, there IS a problem at 96khz.

Paul Issacs has been very helpful as usual and stated "It might be something to do with the decimation filter in the ADC" and that SD are working on a fix.

It would be interesting to have an update and to know whether this is a hardware or software problem.
Old 24th June 2018
  #242
Here for the gear
 

I read another post which a user said that on 96khz the problem isn't present, on this forum who own this recorder can confirm or not?
Old 25th June 2018
  #243
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 View Post
I very much agree with this: the metering options are much better too in the audio mode. And the mid-side options of the standard Mixpre-series recorders might be significant too: they are to me.

So no doubt the standard Mixpre-series recorder + the Musician plugin is better for music recording, but whether the extra cost of the recorder plus the extra cost of the plug-in makes this worthwhile is one for you: likewise, many people recording music will not need the plugin (if they aren't overdubbing, providing monitor feeds with reverb etc.).

Cheers,

Roland
Don't forget the extra cost of the hirose power supply which is not included with the 10-T. All in all it's about a $500 difference.

I'm still within my return window and actually considering exchanging my 10m for a 10t, mainly because I'd like to experiment with more mid-side stuff, but also features like the wingman app and the 10-t output matrix seem useful when I don't need overdubbing. It's a big price difference for me, though.

How does the mid-side decoder on the machine work? Would a possible work-around be to split the sides mic with a splitter cable, stereo linking these two channels and then reversing the polarity on one channel (which from what I can tell I think the 10M would let you do.) Is there anything I'm missing here as to why that wouldn't be a functional mid-side setup?

If this would indeed work, then the advantage of the decoder would be that it allows you to monitor your mid-side setup while only using 2 channels instead of 3?

Sorry my experience with mid-side is limited...thanks in advance.
Old 26th June 2018
  #244
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatpicksam View Post
Don't forget the extra cost of the hirose power supply which is not included with the 10-T. All in all it's about a $500 difference.
I was responding to 'Zorba1977' who was debating a Mixpre-6 vs 6M, but, for sure, the 10M comes with the XL-WPH3 (Wall PSU w/Hirose), which the 10T can also use but doesn't include in the box.

Cheers,

Roland
Old 26th June 2018
  #245
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatpicksam View Post
How does the mid-side decoder on the machine work? Would a possible work-around be to split the sides mic with a splitter cable, stereo linking these two channels and then reversing the polarity on one channel (which from what I can tell I think the 10M would let you do.) Is there anything I'm missing here as to why that wouldn't be a functional mid-side setup?

If this would indeed work, then the advantage of the decoder would be that it allows you to monitor your mid-side setup while only using 2 channels instead of 3?

Sorry my experience with mid-side is limited...thanks in advance.
Yes, you can always use cables and three inputs on a mixer (with polarity reversal as you note) to record a decoded MS signal. The Mixpre-series (non-M models) offers various more flexible MS options: first, you can record MS raw while monitoring LR (or, indeed, MS, should you so wish!); second, you can record LR; third, with a recent firmware update, you can record ISOs as MS and the mix as LR. Obviously the usefulness of the different approaches will be influenced by what you are doing (e.g. using just an MS pair, or an MS pair with a host of other mics too). I find the flexibility invaluable, and I do a lot of MS recording, but only you can judge whether this is worth it!

Cheers,

Roland
Old 27th June 2018
  #246
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatpicksam View Post
Don't forget the extra cost of the hirose power supply which is not included with the 10-T. All in all it's about a $500 difference.

I'm still within my return window and actually considering exchanging my 10m for a 10t, mainly because I'd like to experiment with more mid-side stuff, but also features like the wingman app and the 10-t output matrix seem useful when I don't need overdubbing. It's a big price difference for me, though.
$500 is a lot for me too. For most of my recording/performing needs, eight tracks of simultaneous recording is just fine. For the 10M, that turns out to be $187 per track. However about 30% of the time I need 10 tracks of simultaneous recording. At the same rate per track that would be a $1870 machine. For the extra $129 the 10T offers Bluetooth connectivity with the super cool wingman app, more sophisticated routing options, the ability to work in either mode on the fly, and timecode should I find myself wealthy enough in the future to pick up a second 10T and record up to 20 simultaneous tracks. That works for me.
Old 28th June 2018
  #247
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradh View Post

I find the interface in the audio recording mode easier to navigate, especially for things like setting phantom power on a channel (which is more cumbersome in the musician plugin, you have to use the headphone jog button to scroll through a bunch of settings on a screen, whereas in the audio mode it's just a direct tap of a button).
Bradh - there is a very good and beneficial reason for this. In musicians mode, you have a full digital patch bay which allows you to route any input (mic 1-8, line 1-8, Aux 1-2, USB 1-4, metronome, mix bus L, mix bus R) to any track which means you never have to physically replug your inputs.
Old 28th June 2018
  #248
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogmusic View Post
There's a discussion of this ultrasonic noise problem at this Sound Devices forum:

Sound Devices public group | Facebook

According to one person, there IS a problem at 96khz.

Paul Issacs has been very helpful as usual and stated "It might be something to do with the decimation filter in the ADC" and that SD are working on a fix.

It would be interesting to have an update and to know whether this is a hardware or software problem.
Here's an update from the horses mouth (I'm not really a horse)...

There is no problem recording at 192 kHz or 96 kHz if the recorded files are intended to be played back at normal real time speed -> 99.9% use case.

However, if you are a sound designer that likes to record at 192 kHz with the goal of creating sound FX by slowing down the playback by a factor of 4 or more, you might start to hear low level noise if using some wide bandwidth microphones (e.g. Sanken C100 which has a freq response up to 100kHz).

99.9% of the time, users will never encounter this extreme side case issue. Having said that, we ARE working on improving this as we speak. When we have something, we'll let our customers know.

thx

Paul
Old 28th June 2018
  #249
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zorba1977 View Post
Another question: are the resulting file the same in the two version? If I record with 2 mics can i obtain a stereo wave file? What happens if I record from 4 or 6 inputs?
In standard mode (Audio Projects), files are polyphonic. They can be any size you like, stereo wave file or multichannel interleaved poly. If you record 6 inputs you will end up with a 6 track poly (8 track poly if you have armed your mix tracks).

In Music mode (Music Projects), files are monophonic - this is standard practice with DAWs and any overdubbing device because the audio data and overdubbing management can be handled much more efficiently. If you are recording 6 inputs, you will end up with 6 monophonic files. If you want to create a stereo wav file from these, you do that easily by either bouncing or exporting as a stereo file (wav or AAC). An AAC file is like an mp3 file but much higher quality for the equivalent bit rate.
Old 28th June 2018
  #250
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sculptair View Post

I'm still learning some of the features though. For example in the T mode I've set the Aux In to tracks 9 & 10. I've set the 9 & 10 inputs to mic, turned up the gain, and they both sound great. But I can't figure out how to fade 9 & 10 in the L & R mix!? Any ideas?

Inputs 9 and 10 only have trim gains not mix faders, so they are essentially routed to the mix tracks 'prefade'. Inputs 1-8 all have trims and faders.
Old 28th June 2018
  #251
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauljisaacs View Post
In standard mode (Audio Projects), files are polyphonic. They can be any size you like, stereo wave file or multichannel interleaved poly. If you record 6 inputs you will end up with a 6 track poly (8 track poly if you have armed your mix tracks).

In Music mode (Music Projects), files are monophonic - this is standard practice with DAWs and any overdubbing device because the audio data and overdubbing management can be handled much more efficiently. If you are recording 6 inputs, you will end up with 6 monophonic files. If you want to create a stereo wav file from these, you do that easily by either bouncing or exporting as a stereo file (wav or AAC). An AAC file is like an mp3 file but much higher quality for the equivalent bit rate.
So if you were to record using the MixPre10T with musicians plugin in Audio Projects mode and then open the same project in Music Projects mode (which from what I understood earlier in this thread is easy to do?) would the project get converted to monophonic .wav files? If not then how does this work?
Old 28th June 2018
  #252
Lives for gear
Quick question: When using the built in reverb, can that be monitored and not printed? I'm being gifted a Mix Pre 6 and want to thank the folks on here for the fantastic info.....Birthday comes early, and the unit I've been lusting for, for a long time!.....
Old 28th June 2018
  #253
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatpicksam View Post
So if you were to record using the MixPre10T with musicians plugin in Audio Projects mode and then open the same project in Music Projects mode (which from what I understood earlier in this thread is easy to do?) would the project get converted to monophonic .wav files? If not then how does this work?
Yes, polyphonic files created in Audio Projects are converted to monophonic files when importing into a Music Project.
Old 28th June 2018
  #254
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
Quick question: When using the built in reverb, can that be monitored and not printed? I'm being gifted a Mix Pre 6 and want to thank the folks on here for the fantastic info.....Birthday comes early, and the unit I've been lusting for, for a long time!.....
Yes, its a reverb send that only affects the monitor mix, so not printed. Having said that, if you want to print it (coz you like it!), then you can do that as well using the bounce feature or when rendering a final mix.
Old 28th June 2018
  #255
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by pauljisaacs View Post
Yes, its a reverb send that only affects the monitor mix, so not printed. Having said that, if you want to print it (coz you like it!), then you can do that as well using the bounce feature or when rendering a final mix.
THAT is exactly what I was hoping....! I can't wait to start messing with it (arrives tomorrow!). The guy a SW said you can import files from the DAW, so this looks like the perfect unit. Can't believe how small these things are.....Gonna be a fun weekend!.....
Old 29th June 2018
  #256
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pauljisaacs View Post
Here's an update from the horses mouth (I'm not really a horse)...

There is no problem recording at 192 kHz or 96 kHz if the recorded files are intended to be played back at normal real time speed -> 99.9% use case.

However, if you are a sound designer that likes to record at 192 kHz with the goal of creating sound FX by slowing down the playback by a factor of 4 or more, you might start to hear low level noise if using some wide bandwidth microphones (e.g. Sanken C100 which has a freq response up to 100kHz).

99.9% of the time, users will never encounter this extreme side case issue. Having said that, we ARE working on improving this as we speak. When we have something, we'll let our customers know.

thx

Paul
Thanks, Paul.
Old 29th June 2018
  #257
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 View Post
Yes, you can always use cables and three inputs on a mixer (with polarity reversal as you note) to record a decoded MS signal. The Mixpre-series (non-M models) offers various more flexible MS options
Thanks, Roland, for taking the time to explain.

Just to clarify, I'm talking about using the MixPre10M itself as the mixer to decode the signal. And when I said "it allows you to monitor your mid-side setup while only using 2 channels instead of 3" I was referring to monitoring the stereo decoded midside signal, which I believe you are referring to as LR. When you say MS, I gather that you mean the two ISO signals, mid and side, not decoded into stereo.

On the MixPre10M, using 3 inputs with the sides mic split using a cable and polarity reversed on one (-side), you could essentially do all three of these scenarios you describe with no decoder matrix, yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 View Post
first, you can record MS raw while monitoring LR (or, indeed, MS, should you so wish!)
Since all three signals are ISO you would be recording MS raw (by eliminating the -side track later if you wanted) but monitoring LR (ie. the decoded MS) by having the -side signal present in the mix while recording.

Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 View Post
second, you can record LR
You would also be recording LR if you want by just keeping the -side signal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 View Post
third, with a recent firmware update, you can record ISOs as MS and the mix as LR
If you arm your mix tracks then they will be recorded with the LR (decoded MS) signal, but you'll still have the ISO channels (including the MS not decoded.)

Am I missing something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 View Post
I find the flexibility invaluable, and I do a lot of MS recording, but only you can judge whether this is worth it!
So the way I'm understanding it is that the main advantage of the matrix is that it saves an extra channel from having to be used in order to monitor the stereo effect that you get from MS.

It also sounds a bit more convenient to setup and way nifty.

I obviously I don't have any experience with this kind of decoding matrix so I'm just trying to understand the feature and certainly don't mean to derail the thread with a discussion of MidSide. Once I get my hands on it I'm sure it will make even more sense.

This feature among others and @sculptair reminding me of the 10T's capability to record 10 simultaneous tracks instead of 8 pushed me to exchange my 10M for a 10T. I was actually past the exchange window, but Sweetwater let me do it anyway.

If anyone's been watching this thread and considering the 10M, I suspect there may be an open box special at Sweetwater in the near future. The unit I had is mint and was quite pampered. Used for tinkering, 3 - 4 projects, and spent most of its life so far in a pelican case.
Old 29th June 2018
  #258
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatpicksam View Post
Just to clarify, I'm talking about using the MixPre10M itself as the mixer to decode the signal. And when I said "it allows you to monitor your mid-side setup while only using 2 channels instead of 3" I was referring to monitoring the stereo decoded midside signal, which I believe you are referring to as LR. When you say MS, I gather that you mean the two ISO signals, mid and side, not decoded into stereo.
Yes, I was in that context using LR to mean decoded and MS to mean the unchanged M and S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatpicksam View Post
On the MixPre10M, using 3 inputs with the sides mic split using a cable and polarity reversed on one (-side), you could essentially do all three of these scenarios you describe with no decoder matrix, yes?
Nearly, but not quite: you wouldn't be able to record decoded MS to LR on two ISO channels - you would only get the decoded signal to the LR mix on the Mixpre. Putting aside the additional input channel requirement, this could be an issue if you had more mics (say spots) at the same time: how would you monitor (using solo) your decoded MS? I suppose you could solo all three (M, S- and S+ channels), but sounds a little clunky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatpicksam View Post
Since all three signals are ISO you would be recording MS raw (by eliminating the -side track later if you wanted) but monitoring LR (ie. the decoded MS) by having the -side signal present in the mix while recording.
Yes. Although I meant recording MS raw to 2 channels and monitoring those channels LR by using the headphone MS decode option. Subtly different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatpicksam View Post
You would also be recording LR if you want by just keeping the -side signal.
Er, no: perhaps this is a typo? L = M + S; R = M – S. So you would only be recording the LR decode of the MS to the LR mix (along with any other mics - e.g. spots or outriggers) routed to the mix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatpicksam View Post
If you arm your mix tracks then they will be recorded with the LR (decoded MS) signal, but you'll still have the ISO channels (including the MS not decoded.)
Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by flatpicksam View Post
Am I missing something?
So the way I'm understanding it is that the main advantage of the matrix is that it saves an extra channel from having to be used in order to monitor the stereo effect that you get from MS.

It also sounds a bit more convenient to setup and way nifty.

I obviously I don't have any experience with this kind of decoding matrix so I'm just trying to understand the feature and certainly don't mean to derail the thread with a discussion of MidSide. Once I get my hands on it I'm sure it will make even more sense.
It is mainly an issue of convenience, workflow (you might want MS decoded to LR ISOs), and quick flexibility esp. when other mics are being recorded. Using two channels rather than three is not to be sniffed at though: I have a Mixpre-3 as my smallest and most convenient recorder, and, amongst many things, I use MS to record acoustic groups, hedging my bets on bass with a DI/spots, so that free third channel is useful!

Cheers,

Roland
Old 29th June 2018
  #259
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linkevich's Avatar
 

Hi!
How to hide “Q”-sign from home menu on the screen of mixpre10T?
Old 29th June 2018
  #260
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 View Post
It is mainly an issue of convenience, workflow (you might want MS decoded to LR ISOs), and quick flexibility esp. when other mics are being recorded. Using two channels rather than three is not to be sniffed at though: I have a Mixpre-3 as my smallest and most convenient recorder, and, amongst many things, I use MS to record acoustic groups, hedging my bets on bass with a DI/spots, so that free third channel is useful!

Cheers,

Roland
Thanks again, Roland, for helping me to understand! I appreciate your time. I'm excited to explore these capabilities and to get more into m/s recording. I was really thrilled with the 10M and it felt a little impulsive to make the exchange but in the long run I think I'll be glad I got the 10T. The 10M is superb, but with these few extra features and capabilities the 10T should be all the recorder I'll ever need.

Sam
Old 3 weeks ago
  #261
Here for the gear
 

I think you can't play loops (between two markers) and do several overdubs. This was just confirmed to me by support, I couldn't get this info from the manual.
Maybe I'm "special", but to me (as a musician) it's quite important. Maybe you can loop and play over just without recording(?).

Best thing would be to have virtual tracks where you can keep recordings of several overdubs over the same loop. I know, it's more of a DAW feature, but for a multitrack aimed at musicians I think this would be really helpful to have.

Maybe they'll add something like that in the future.
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