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Sound Devices Announces MixPre-10M "For Musicians" Recorders, Players & Tape Machines
Old 9th April 2018
  #61
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 View Post
Hello Dominic,

it would be helpful to be able to drag a track from the computer into the 10M's project folder: can you do this?

Cheers,

Roland
Second this, It would be nice to be able to use whatever name the user wants for the track, unlike the zoom H6 and the tascam dr44wl where you can load tracks from computer to recorder but they have to adhere to the strict naming conventions of the respective recorders. (the zoom h4 allowed you to use whatever name you wanted when loading a track to a new project so hopefully we're back to the future with the SD 10M)
Old 10th April 2018
  #62
Lives for gear
News item from the Gotham Audio mailout today:

Two exciting announcements from Sound Devices about MixPre Recorders:

1. Later this summer, the MixPre-6 and 10T will gain the ability via free firmware update to decode binaural audio in real-time, allowing realtime monitoring of the Sennheiser Ambeo VR and other ambisonic mics. More details: Sound Devices - SOUND DEVICES ANNOUNCES NEW VR PARTNERSHIP WITH SENNHEISER

2. Next week, a firmware update will add remixing, cueing, and track linking!
Old 10th April 2018
  #63
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 View Post
Hello Dominic,

Thanks re kind offer to answer questions.

As per an earlier post of mine, my interest in the 10M is in the (software) functionality as, presumably, the imminent Musician's plug-in for existing MixPre-series owners (of which I am one) will be very similar, if not identical. I am particularly interested to see how you can load tracks, say just a stereo mix, off a computer so that you can then overdub an instrument or vocal on location. Using such existing tracks is not at all clear from the manual, which focuses on building up a song/piece of music from scratch: I assume this is possible, but can you shed any light on this? Obviously one could get a track across from your DAW by selecting the USB as an input (manual p. 6, section 7b), but it would be helpful to be able to drag a track from the computer into the 10M's project folder: can you do this?

Cheers,

Roland
Well, there's good news and bad news.

When you connect the 10M to a computer - nothing happens.
Once you select System - File Transfer, the 10M goes into a suspend mode and mounts its file system (i.e. the SD card) as a drive on the computer. [I'm using a Mac - I have no reason to believe it would be any different on a PC].

From there you can copy files from the SD to the Mac/PC or drag files from the Mac/PC to the SD card.

I've included a screenshot of the filesystem - there's only one song (called TUFF_GONG2) and the rest is all there as part of the OS.

The bad news is that there is no way of simply dragging wav files somewhere and then pulling them into a new song. The 10M simply doesn't see a new folder with a WAV file in it, nor does it give you any options for importing files.

The good news is that each folder is very simply laid out and the song information is in a straightforward XML file. It's very clear what the XML parameters do and so a default song XML could be easily edited to include the names of the WAV files you want to use.

I haven't tried it yet - I'll do so later today - but all that should be necessary is to insert the names of each of the WAV files into a single line each of the XML file and put the files in the correct folder.

I'll do it later, and assuming it works, I'll write up instructions.
All you need is an XML compatible text file editor. On the Mac, TextEdit (which is built into the OS) does that just fine.

In the screenshot enclosed, the highlighted file is "Session.XML". This would appear to be the open (active) session, and probably shouldn't be messed with. Each individual song gets its own folder and within that, the song has its own "Session.XML" file. So, if you mess it up, you only mess up one song. In our case, there's no need to fiddle with existing songs - we're just trying to introduce a new song with a few new WAV files, so if it doesn't work, no harm will be done.

Dominic
Attached Thumbnails
Sound Devices Announces MixPre-10M "For Musicians"-screen-shot-2018-04-10-10.28.03.jpg  
Old 10th April 2018
  #64
Gear Maniac
 

Hi Dominic,

Thanks for all this. Interested to see if the XML editing works. And just wondering if this is much more straightforward than selecting a USB channel as an input and uploading from a DAW that way. All seems a bit clunky though for a recorder that is specifically targeted at musicians: for example even the old Zoom R8 etc. series made it fairly simple to upload pre-existing WAV files.

On a closely related matter, I would be interested to hear what you have made of the overdubbing functionality. The 10M manual only uses this term for detailed operational procedures in relation to punching-in/out (on pp. 45-6), although evidently the 10M can do overdubbing in the sense of adding a complete track over previously recorded tracks, as clear from on-line videos and on p. 7 of the manual where it says 'To lay another track over the just-recorded track, configure an input and proceed from there.' And on p. 32 the meter view shows green track labels for tracks that are playing back in contrast to the red track labels for tracks armed for recording. On p. 40 the manual says 'Disarmed tracks play back during recording and playback unless their input monitor is on, in which case they monitor the live input.' So does this mean that, unlike for arming, there is no means of selecting playback for specific tracks only while overdubbing? Is the only way of turning off playback on a track by selecting the monitor on option for that track (which seems odd: surely you don't monitor a single live input via several tracks)? I'm very puzzled.

I hope it is just the manual that is lacking here, but any detail on the operation of how the 10M (and, by implication, the imminent Musician plug-in) operates in terms of overdubbing/laying additional tracks would be hugely appreciated!

Cheers,

Roland
Old 10th April 2018
  #65
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 View Post
Hi Dominic,

Thanks for all this. Interested to see if the XML editing works. And just wondering if this is much more straightforward than selecting a USB channel as an input and uploading from a DAW that way. All seems a bit clunky though for a recorder that is specifically targeted at musicians: for example even the old Zoom R8 etc. series made it fairly simple to upload pre-existing WAV files.
Well, the advantage of doing it by XML editing is that you could introduce up to 12 files (possibly more - not sure yet how it stores multiple wavs a long a single track timeline). With recording from USB, it's a maximum of 4, and that has to be realtime - not a big deal for a single 5 minute song, but much more of a pain for a whole album or a long jazz or classical track.

Quote:
On a closely related matter, I would be interested to hear what you have made of the overdubbing functionality. The 10M manual only uses this term for detailed operational procedures in relation to punching-in/out (on pp. 45-6), although evidently the 10M can do overdubbing in the sense of adding a complete track over previously recorded tracks, as clear from on-line videos and on p. 7 of the manual where it says 'To lay another track over the just-recorded track, configure an input and proceed from there.' And on p. 32 the meter view shows green track labels for tracks that are playing back in contrast to the red track labels for tracks armed for recording. On p. 40 the manual says 'Disarmed tracks play back during recording and playback unless their input monitor is on, in which case they monitor the live input.' So does this mean that, unlike for arming, there is no means of selecting playback for specific tracks only while overdubbing? Is the only way of turning off playback on a track by selecting the monitor on option for that track (which seems odd: surely you don't monitor a single live input via several tracks)? I'm very puzzled.
I'm still playing with this. All I've done so far is record a handful of individual takes to different tracks. I haven't done any punching in yet.

The mode of operation is that the inputs which are assigned are active. There is no 'off'....so when you stop playing, all the assigned inputs go back to being 'live'.

[I have a problem with this from a monitor/feedback position, but I have a workaround]

So, each of the 12 tracks has an input assigned, or it doesn't (up to a max of 8 - so at least 4 tracks must have nothing assigned).
When the transport is in "Stop", all these inputs are 'live'. They are sent to the headphone output and to the main output(s).
The output volume to the headphone/main output are set by the 8 controls on the front. Channels 9-12 require a quick click on the touchscreen, and then knobs 5-8 control channels 9-12. [The LED rings light up orange until you've twiddled the control to the same position as you left it before - typical of a non-motorised fader arrangement].
(The input gain is set separately, one channel at a time, using the INPUT menu and the headphone rotary control).

Sligtly hazy about the next two sentences... need to check....
When the transport is in "Play", the inputs no longer play through the outputs, provided 'Input Monitor' is off.
When the transport is in "Rec", the inputs only play for record armed tracks, provided 'Input Monitor' is off.

Quote:
I hope it is just the manual that is lacking here, but any detail on the operation of how the 10M (and, by implication, the imminent Musician plug-in) operates in terms of overdubbing/laying additional tracks would be hugely appreciated!

Cheers,

Roland
It's much harder to explain in writing than to use!
There are some limitations. It would be much nicer to have separate input gain knobs for each of the inputs, and also to have 12 rather than 8 output knobs. But the device would be larger and more expensive.
I particularly dislike using the headphone volume as an input controller - in my opinion there should always be physical, permanent volume controls for headphone and main outputs. But I hate feedback.
I guess it's never going to be as easy as a big Tascam Portastudio to use, there just isn't the physical real-estate to put all the necessary controls. But it is much smaller, and sounds better.

Dominic
Old 10th April 2018
  #66
Gear Maniac
 

Thanks Dominic: you are a star going to all this effort to respond to queries! All very helpful and much appreciated. Certainly sounds, at the very least, as if there is scope/a need to improve the manual.

And I look forward to hearing if the XML editing works OK, as expected. I fully take your point about real-time transfer otherwise via USB channel/track inputs.

Cheers,

Roland
Old 10th April 2018
  #67
Gear Maniac
 

And what will be interesting, in due course, is to see how the imminent Musician plug-in functions on the MixPre-3, 6 and 10T. I guess it is reasonable to assume that it will operate as a separate mode (i.e. in addition to the current basic, advanced and custom modes) offering the same functionality as the 10M (albeit with varying numbers of inputs) and that in this mode some of the functionality of these recorders will not be available: examples of functionality that might be lost if the Musician mode echoes the 10M include M/S, 192kHz sample rate and, perhaps in the 10T's case, simultaneous recording via all 10 analogue inputs. If, however, the full functionality of, say, advanced mode is available on these recorders with the new Musician plug-in that would be interesting and may then tip the balance for many from the (8-channel) MixPre-10M to the MixPre-6 or the MixPre-10T. Unless, of course, SD extend the functionality of the 10M...

Time will tell.

Cheers,

Roland
Old 10th April 2018
  #68
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 View Post
Thanks Dominic: you are a star going to all this effort to respond to queries! All very helpful and much appreciated. Certainly sounds, at the very least, as if there is scope/a need to improve the manual.

And I look forward to hearing if the XML editing works OK, as expected. I fully take your point about real-time transfer otherwise via USB channel/track inputs.

Cheers,

Roland
I'm happy to help but sorry to disappoint - at this time I'm not able to import even a simple song with two WAV files.

Each song folder bears the name of the song.
Each folder has a SESSION.XML file in it.
Each folder has the wav file(s) relating to the song in it.
[There are sometimes other folders like RENDER, if you have performed a render, but not relevant here].
The SESSION.XML file has no reference to the song name inside it, so it doesn't belong to the song except by being inside the same folder as the WAV files.

Each WAV file has a timestamp in the format MMDDYY-HHMMSS_x.wav where the month, day, year, hours, minutes and seconds are all digits (and correspond to when the file was created) and are followed by an underscore and a number. The number seems to be 3 for Track 1, 4 for Track 2 and 5 for Track 3. When recording multiple sections on a track (record for a few seconds, stop and then record more later on down the timeline) the WAV files share the "_x" number, although their creation times are different. However, it is not the creation time which determines how far along the timeline the file starts (nor should it be - you might record one section today and one tomorrow). Instead, the offset is recorded in the TimeReference field which I found using BWF MetaEdit - a Broadcast Wav File data editor. As an example - a TimeReference of 1786247 translates to an offset of 40.504 seconds. So the file starts 40.504 seconds from the beginning of the song (00:00.000).

I did not attempt to edit BWF data or anything so clever. I simply copied a SESSION.XML file and changed the names of the files it referenced to a couple of new WAV files which I had dragged across. I renamed the WAV files to follow the MMDDYY-HHMMSS_x.wav format, using _3 and _4 for the suffix.
I created a new folder called TEST2 and put my two new WAV files and the SESSION.XML file into it. I then turned File Sharing off, let the 10M reload the original song, and chose 'Open Project'.
Nothing. No sign of it recognising a new folder with new XML and WAV files in it. I rebooted the 10M (in case it only reads the folder structure on boot up). Still nothing.

So there may be a hidden file in the root directory which lists the songs on the SD card. Or there may be some hidden attributes of the folder which I haven't set correctly. Whatever it is, the job is not simple, and that makes it a faff for pretty much everyone.

On a separate subject, the monitoring of incoming signals is complex (without being sufficiently conprehensive). There's no 'pause' available during record, but there is during playback. To make things harder, the 10M drops straight out of playback to 'stop' at the end of the last file - meaning (if you have monitors up) feedback from inputs that have the track volume turned up - inputs that are muted during playback but suddenly go 'live' the moment the song finishes - there's no warning!

I'm sure I saw a little table with all the options of what is and isn't monitored depending upon the status of the transport and the MonInput setting, but I can't find it. Maybe it was in the first version of the manual (which has been updated).

Some of this stuff can be fixed by firmware updates, although I'm not sure how willing SD will be to make the changes which will suit me. They seem to be stuck firmly in a mindset that everything is done with headphones on, despite providing two additional pairs of outputs. I think that comes from the Field Recorder approach, but it doesn't work for me - I want to listen back to what I've just recorded on some decent speakers, and having to individually un-assign all the inputs first is a major pain.

Dominic
Old 10th April 2018
  #69
Gear Maniac
 

Dominic,

Many thanks for all this. The copying across of existing WAV files looks impossible then (other than in real time via USB input) or, if a way is found, unfeasibly complex. How odd and what a disappointment.

The monitoring issue sounds a pain: though not relevant to my usage, what you describe sounds entirely reasonable, not least since the SD promotional videos show the 10M in home studio-like environments.

I agree that, insofar as we can tell, the shortcomings of the 10M appear to stem from the field-recorder background of SD and unfamiliarity with the new area into which they have branched, but, as you say, the issues should be solvable by firmware so I would encourage you to contact SD asap if you haven't done so already. Certainly they were responsive to problems many of us early adopters had with the Mixpre-3/6.

Cheers,

Roland
Old 10th April 2018
  #70
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dominicperry View Post
It's much harder to explain in writing than to use!
In that vein it is good to see SD starting to add some how-to videos, such as this one for basic overdubbing/track layering (YouTube) - though it doesn't show how to turn tracks off from the playback while recording...

Hopefully more will follow.

Cheers,

Roland
Old 10th April 2018
  #71
Lives for gear
Why not just render separate tracks from the DAW to the Mixpre using the streaming feature?
Old 10th April 2018
  #72
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aural Endeavors View Post
Why not just render separate tracks from the DAW to the Mixpre using the streaming feature?
That's 4 channels max, in real-time only.

Dominic
Old 10th April 2018
  #73
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 View Post
In that vein it is good to see SD starting to add some how-to videos, such as this one for basic overdubbing/track layering (YouTube) - though it doesn't show how to turn tracks off from the playback while recording...

Hopefully more will follow.

Cheers,

Roland
Mmm, well that video isn't great.
In particular - 2 sets of headphones - no explanation as to how that's been achieved with a single headphone amp/socket.
Input setting - Mic level for keyboard input??? - and then twiddling the front panel knob, implying that that's controlling the input level - it isn't, that's the output level. Setting the input level is far more fiddly.
"They are armed already" - no, they were not. That's why the ARM light was off!
"Very first thing we're going to do"... except for all the other things which you did first.
And lastly "Nice" after every take.

Dominic
Old 10th April 2018
  #74
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 View Post
Dominic,

Many thanks for all this. The copying across of existing WAV files looks impossible then (other than in real time via USB input) or, if a way is found, unfeasibly complex. How odd and what a disappointment.
A little program written by someone who (a) understands how the filing structure actually works and (b) knows how to code, would probably make this a breeze. SD have a few bits of software for various things like de-interleaving files, so maybe they'll add one later if there's a demand.

Quote:
The monitoring issue sounds a pain: though not relevant to my usage, what you describe sounds entirely reasonable, not least since the SD promotional videos show the 10M in home studio-like environments.

I agree that, insofar as we can tell, the shortcomings of the 10M appear to stem from the field-recorder background of SD and unfamiliarity with the new area into which they have branched, but, as you say, the issues should be solvable by firmware so I would encourage you to contact SD asap if you haven't done so already. Certainly they were responsive to problems many of us early adopters had with the Mixpre-3/6.
I will do so, but I wanted to try it out first and make sure I hadn't missed anything.

Dominic
Old 10th April 2018
  #75
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dominicperry View Post
Mmm, well that video isn't great.
All fair enough indeed, and, again, odd. A few useful things, though, for some of us who have not handled a 10M yet and are faced with the less than well-written manual.

Cheers,

Roland
Old 10th April 2018
  #76
Lives for gear
 
celticrogues's Avatar
 

Thanks for doing this Dominic.

I'm curious if its possible to assign the same input to multiple tracks simultaneously. For example, could you have mic input 1 assigned to both track 1 and track 4 at the same time?

Thanks!
-Mike
Old 10th April 2018
  #77
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 View Post
All fair enough indeed, and, again, odd. A few useful things, though, for some of us who have not handled a 10M yet and are faced with the less than well-written manual.

Cheers,

Roland
Product demos are notoriously hard to do well, and I'm much happier that these guys are good technicians, engineers and designers than they are salesmen.
But there were a couple of fundamental things wrong - in the case of the 10M it's important to show that each individual input level has to be set by pushing the Track Knob (1-8), touching the 'Gain' icon on the screen, and then either touching the up and down arrows on the screen or twiddling the headphone knob. To imply that you use the main 8 knobs is disingenuous, because it just isn't that easy!

Dominic
Old 10th April 2018
  #78
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by celticrogues View Post
Thanks for doing this Dominic.

I'm curious if its possible to assign the same input to multiple tracks simultaneously. For example, could you have mic input 1 assigned to both track 1 and track 4 at the same time?

Thanks!
-Mike

No, you can't do this - if you assign an input (which is already assigned) to a new track, it 'unassigns' it from the original track. Which is quite handy really (rather than saying "input is already assigned" or similar), but it does prevent you from doing what you've asked.

Dominic
Old 10th April 2018
  #79
Lives for gear
 
celticrogues's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dominicperry View Post
No, you can't do this - if you assign an input (which is already assigned) to a new track, it 'unassigns' it from the original track. Which is quite handy really (rather than saying "input is already assigned" or similar), but it does prevent you from doing what you've asked.

Dominic
Bummer - figured that would be the case but thanks for checking!

-Mike
Old 10th April 2018
  #80
Gear Head
 

By the way - I don't want anyone to think that this isn't a great device, because it is.

Even without any further firmware updates, it's fantastic as it stands.

I've been waiting for something like this for years. Something which you can plug hot mics, low-output mics, hot synths, hot external mic pres into, record with excellent quality and low-noise and output through quality D/A into a good loud headphone amp and to high quality monitors, all without compromise.

There are just a few things which could be improved.

Dominic
Old 10th April 2018
  #81
Gear Maniac
 

Good to hear that you are very pleased overall. I'm certainly convinced by the Mixpre-series and, notwithstanding the probable need to upload existing WAVs by selecting a USB input for a channel, I'm keen to buy the Musician plug-in as soon as it is released for the overdubbing/overlaying tracks capability.

Cheers,

Roland
Old 10th April 2018
  #82
Here for the gear
Hi Dominic, many thanks for all of this. Re. the loading of files, have you tried creating a few seconds of dummy recording to setup a new song, then replacing that track with your intended file with its name changed to the dummy track file name? That's the procedure I use with the H6 and the Tascam 44WL, more or less.
Old 12th April 2018
  #83
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by omega75 View Post
Hi Dominic, many thanks for all of this. Re. the loading of files, have you tried creating a few seconds of dummy recording to setup a new song, then replacing that track with your intended file with its name changed to the dummy track file name? That's the procedure I use with the H6 and the Tascam 44WL, more or less.
I haven't tested this yet. If it works, it does mean that all WAV files would have to start at the beginning of the song (00:00:000).

Dominic
Old 12th April 2018
  #84
Gear Head
 

New version of firmware is up (v2.10) and it appears to include some new features for MixPre3, 6 and 10T too, including a 'bounce' type function.
I've installed it, no dramas. A couple of sensible fixes and a couple of minor fixes and amendments to operation.

Dominic
Old 12th April 2018
  #85
Lives for gear
 
Thomas W. Bethe's Avatar
Sound Devices just announced a new FIRMWARE update today. Version 2.1 is out and there are a lot of new features.

As to importing .wav files into the unit. It is not suppose to be a DAW. It is suppose to be a multitrack recorder with some mix capabilities is what I am reading from their site.

Last edited by Thomas W. Bethe; 15th April 2018 at 03:40 PM.. Reason: Clarification
Old 12th April 2018
  #86
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Sound Devices just announced a new FIRMWARE update today. Version 2.5 is out and there are a lot of new features.
Definitely version 2.10

Dominic
Old 13th April 2018
  #87
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
Behringer apparently released the code for the XR series such that David Giga wrote a rather excellent control app called Mixing Station Pro for the XR. I have no problem using either his app or the factory apps. So there is precedent for what Schoeller suggested. In the case of the XR, there's no change to Behringer's firmware--only the control app.

Since Sound Devices has elected to charge $99 for its app for the existing recorders (not the 10M apparently), it would seem doubtful that they will release their code for a third party to develop an app for the 10T or 10M.

Did anyone else notice that SD acquired Audio Limited, a maker of wireless microphones? Sound Devices - Sound Devices Acquires Audio Ltd.

With the release of the MixPre line and the acquisition of Audio Limited, one has to wonder what's next?
What is next is they'll integrate the two together like Zaxcom has done.
Old 13th April 2018
  #88
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
News item from the Gotham Audio mailout today:

Two exciting announcements from Sound Devices about MixPre Recorders:

1. Later this summer, the MixPre-6 and 10T will gain the ability via free firmware update to decode binaural audio in real-time, allowing realtime monitoring of the Sennheiser Ambeo VR and other ambisonic mics. More details: Sound Devices - SOUND DEVICES ANNOUNCES NEW VR PARTNERSHIP WITH SENNHEISER

2. Next week, a firmware update will add remixing, cueing, and track linking!
Fingers crossed they'll partner with RODE too for their Ambisonic microphone the NT-SF1
Old 15th April 2018
  #89
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u87allen View Post
Timing is everything. THIS is the unit I was looking for 6 months ago. A standalone multitrack that could do 96Ksps AND had overdub capability. Didn't exist 6 months ago. At least not new. So I had to buy a used Alesis HD24XR.
Exactly...I had been searching for a good sounding box that would do overdubs for over a year and didn't understand why nobody made such a device. It is a great little box for recording/working on song ideas, and recording the live mix while on the road. Last year I was on tour and we needed to record some musicians and singers that the band wanted to feature on their record and I ended up getting a MacBook pro, Pro Tools native and the Antelope Zen Tour interface.

This setup had the potential to do everything I wanted and more...if only the Zen Tour worked, but that's another matter. The downsides of my setup are: the cost, the weight, especially since I was flying for a lot of the tour, the time to set it up and the reliability compared to an all in one box that does not have to be connected to a computer.

So far it seems that the major fault or oversight with this SD box is lack of easy transfer of audio files from a computer to the box. Having this facility is a must and this has to be sorted quickly. This box does not need time code and most of the other facilities that some people are asking for...it's not supposed to replace your DAW/studio setup or a full blown live recording rig. It's a simple 10 track box that allows you to record 8 tracks at a time and do overdubs.

I can run with this box in my carry bag and record a couple of guitars and vocal tracks to previously recorded guide tracks, make a rough mix and send the file out via WeTransfer in my hotel room with relative ease. Plus I can record the band's live mix including the audience/room on separate tracks.
Old 15th April 2018
  #90
Lives for gear
 
nobtwiddler's Avatar
 

I'll have to look into this SD unit a bit more, as the ability to overdub is all I found lacking with my F-8 units.

I have 2 F-8's and 2 x F Control mixers. Use them locked up for 16 track capture all the time.
Work perfectly, and sound pretty damn good!
Transfer of files is 1,2,3, pretty painless.
And on occasion have also used them as USB interfaces, and once again no problems at all, everything worked and sounds great.

But this overdub thing.....humm
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