The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Seeking examples of SDC figure 8 spots & spaced pairs Condenser Microphones
Old 27th February 2018
  #1
Seeking examples of SDC figure 8 spots & spaced pairs

Hi all,

As I mull my next capsule purchase, likely a pair of mk8 since I already have the CMC6's, I would be very curious to hear:

1) Examples of SDC figure 8's as spots

2) Examples of spaced SDC figure 8's as main pair (whether a "Faulkner array" or similar)

The vast majority of recordings on the forum which feature figure 8's seem to be either in the context of MS or Blumlein, or involve ribbons. If anyone has a recording or two handy which prominently feature SDC 8's in either of the above roles, I'd be curious to hear as I weigh my options...

Many thanks!
Luke
Old 12th March 2018
  #2
Bump - any thoughts/samples much appreciated!
Old 12th March 2018
  #3
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukedamrosch View Post
Hi all,

As I mull my next capsule purchase, likely a pair of mk8 since I already have the CMC6's, I would be very curious to hear:

1) Examples of SDC figure 8's as spots

2) Examples of spaced SDC figure 8's as main pair (whether a "Faulkner array" or similar)

The vast majority of recordings on the forum which feature figure 8's seem to be either in the context of MS or Blumlein, or involve ribbons. If anyone has a recording or two handy which prominently feature SDC 8's in either of the above roles, I'd be curious to hear as I weigh my options...

Many thanks!
Luke
sorry, no samples, but a some experience:

i did once replace/double a pair of spaced schoeps blms for mains with a pair of cmc5/mk8 when i was given permission to put up two mics on stands just minutes before doors (but no permission for filming) and the only mics left were these two fig8s, set as wide a/b approx. 6m apart at 2.5m height.

the venue had a capacity of 1200, full orchestra; don't remember the programm, but lots of percussion and hence about sixteen spot mics (plus two rear ambis i wide a/b)

i ended up relying on the blms much more and used just some of the fig8s to widen the picture (and as sends into an artificial reverb device)

regarding their use as spots, i can't really comment as i tend to prefer anything else (from wide cardioid to hypercardioid). one exception though: sometimes i use fig8s on percussion/drums for lots of side cancellation and on acoustic guitarists/singers for the same reason
Old 12th March 2018
  #4
Ask Yannick on the forums, he does fabulous things with 8's in all possible situations.
Old 13th March 2018
  #5
deedeeyeah: Thank you for the thoughts and report! It is interesting how many people seem to fall either into one of the following schools of thought:

"I adore figure 8's and use them whenever possible"
"I almost always prefer a different pattern"

With relatively few people in the middle, seemingly. Having only had significant personal experience with ribbons when it comes to the pattern, and rarely using Blumlein or M/S I am still trying to find where I stand on all this...

apotheosis: Thanks for the reminder about Yannick - I have admired many of his recordings posted on here...
Old 2nd May 2018
  #6
One last bump, if anyone else cares to share their relevant experience. Thanks!
Old 2nd May 2018
  #7
Lives for gear
 
tourtelot's Avatar
As with another poster, no clips but some experience. I use the Mk8 in an "original" Faulkner Array pretty often, especially if my mics are a bit farther away from the ensemble. This is the array that has two figure-of-eights spaced 20cm (8") or so apart and pointing straight ahead.

I seem to think that the sound that this pair produces is really sublime, one of my favorite "sounds."

The problem with this pair is a very narrow stage "width"; great reach and "depth" but the left-right spread is constricted and this is a pretty well known and tested property of this array. I have augmented this array with two omni flankers (and even, sometimes on the same AEA long bar) and that makes a big difference in width; some would say that it defeats the purpose of a phased array and there is some evidence to support this. I don't really hear the problem myself.

As well, another poster in another thread turned me on to an AES paper about shuffling the (specific) Faulkner Array with a specific EQ preset (and even a specific EQ plugin) which I tried and which actually works exceeding well at broadening the stage without a lot of other artifacts. But it is involved and was a bit expensive since I needed to buy a plugin that would allow this scenario to be achieved.

All that said, I really like the Schoeps Mk8 heads even as I also own a few other manufacturer's figure-of-eights. I am a fan of that capsule's specific sound as a main pair mic, although I have little experience with it as a spot since I almost never use spot mics in my setups.

D.
Old 2nd May 2018
  #8
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
As well, another poster in another thread turned me on to an AES paper about shuffling the (specific) Faulkner Array with a specific EQ preset (and even a specific EQ plugin) which I tried and which actually works exceeding well at broadening the stage without a lot of other artifacts. But it is involved and was a bit expensive since I needed to buy a plugin that would allow this scenario to be achieved.
I thought that "shuffling" was a specific technique for working with mid-side
arrays which applies eq to just the side channel before matrixing.

I don't understand how shuffling can be applied to a spaced microphone array.
Old 2nd May 2018
  #9
Lives for gear
 

Just recorded Beethoven’s Missa Solemnis.
choir of 150 plus 40 piece orchestra.
Used a Faulkner 8” spaced pair of
MKH30’s as “spot” pickup of Bass and Tenor choir sections who were located at very front of church
with organ pipes on either side. The
“main pair” was Soundfield DSF-1 (still experimenting with best decode pattern) in center of 2ft spaced Josephson C617’s.
MKH 8040’s in ORTF between orchestra and choir
and then Faulkner array approx. 8 rows back to capture the basses in rows 12-13 and tenors in
right half of rows 9-12. The MKH30’s worked great!
Will try to post sample of the Faulkner pair later.
Old 2nd May 2018
  #10
Lives for gear
 
tourtelot's Avatar
"I thought that "shuffling" was a specific technique for working with mid-side
arrays which applies eq to just the side channel before matrixing."

Exactly! This technique uses two EQ plugs that take the L/R and converts it to M/S, processes the S signal and then re-converts the M/S to L/R.

See Michael Gerzon, AES Fellow; Applications of Blumlein Shuffling to Stereo Microphone Techniques, 1992

and

Post #8 , Question about Faulkner Array

What Joseph suggests seems to me to work well, and he was kind enough to talk me through the process after he figured out the math.

D.
Old 3rd May 2018
  #11
Lives for gear
 
grrrayson's Avatar
 

Samples of this are rare because most people don't accept the lack of bass characteristic of the mk8 when used other than as a side mic in an MS configuration.

I own two mk8 capsules but almost never use them other than in MS for this same reason. I love ribbon figure-8 mics on lots of things (spots or mains) and I love the Schoeps line in general; realize that the mk8 is a more specific tool than is implied by mere general characterizations like "figure-8" or "SDC figure-8".

Of course some people use them in all kinds of situations; the only way to see what you like is to try them yourself in the different configurations you're curious about.
Old 3rd May 2018
  #12
Lives for gear
 

The Schoeps fig 8 has an almost identical character sound to a Sonodore omni.
Old 3rd May 2018
  #13
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
Just recorded Beethoven’s Missa Solemnis.
choir of 150 plus 40 piece orchestra.
Used a Faulkner 8” spaced pair of
MKH30’s as “spot” pickup of Bass and Tenor choir sections who were located at very front of church
with organ pipes on either side. The
“main pair” was Soundfield DSF-1 (still experimenting with best decode pattern) in center of 2ft spaced Josephson C617’s.
MKH 8040’s in ORTF between orchestra and choir
and then Faulkner array approx. 8 rows back to capture the basses in rows 12-13 and tenors in
right half of rows 9-12. The MKH30’s worked great!
Will try to post sample of the Faulkner pair later.
Brief samples of the MKH30 Faulkner pair used as spot for the
Tenor and Bass sections and a rough mix including theFaulkner spot-relative level as used in rough mix.
(Link also has 2496 samples).

Also see photo showing position of mics. Basses not picked up as well as tenors due to smaller number and being further away. Latchlake 3300 boom arm extended approx. 8 ft (using 2 counterweights).

Gearslutz Missa Solemnis - Google Drive
Attached Thumbnails
Seeking examples of SDC figure 8 spots & spaced pairs-img_5100.jpg  
Attached Files
Old 3rd May 2018
  #14
Folkie -- Thanks very much for taking the time to share this. Exactly what I was looking for. Very helpful.

Doug -- Thank you as always for your thoughts. I tend to prefer recordings with a very full, even lush, sense of width, so I'm sure that shuffling technique will be worth exploring.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this.
Old 3rd May 2018
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Plush's Avatar
I use a Schoeps CMC58 on cello soloist. Positioning it so as to use the null to block out nearby instruments. Also on concertmaster when there is a piano concerto. Null gets me pure vln sound without the nearby piano or other first vln. strings.

Natural low freq. roll-off of MK8 is beneficial for spots on woodwind since they have little low freq. information in their sound. How about placing MK8 sideways to pick up the whole section of woodwind sound??
Old 3rd May 2018
  #16
Lives for gear
 

Luke,
Besides using my MKH30’s pair in Faulkner array,
I also use them for Blumlein or Blumlein MS, MS with MKH8040 or 8050 and as widely-spaced
pair for ambience. I definitely would consider using a single MKH30 as a spot mic where side rejection is important (e.g. acoustic instrument next to a drum kit). Also remember that whether
as a single or pair the side-rejection of the fig 8 pattern is very useful in rooms with bad ( or too
reverberant) acoustics ( eg rejection of slap echo, rejection of sound above (eg under the center of a domed ceiling) or below (eg audience).
On and off-axis the MKH30’s sound
great and I am very glad I got them!
I am not a “use fig 8 for everything” person but they are definitely a very useful addition to round
out my mic kit (MKH 8040/8050’s, Josephson C617 omni’s and Soundfield DSF-1 and ST450).
Old 4th May 2018
  #17
Maestro Plush, as always your endorsements are carefully noted, thank you. I am intrigued by the sideways 8 concept...

Folkie, thanks for the elaboration!

A question for those of you who use spaced 8's with omni flankers: Just out of curiosity, what is a ballpark ratio you typically use for the blend? I'm very familiar with the "other" (subcard+omni) Faulkner array and other similar approaches like ORTF and omnis on the same bar. Wondering how, in your experience, the blending element differs (or not) in the case of 8's + omnis. Or any other related observations to bear in mind.
Old 16th May 2018
  #18
Marine Band recording sessions this week. We have figure-8 ribbons as spots on:

harp
principal clarinet
euphonium
tuba
Old 16th May 2018
  #19
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by lukedamrosch View Post
A question for those of you who use spaced 8's with omni flankers: Just out of curiosity, what is a ballpark ratio you typically use for the blend?
Not regarding flanks aka outriggers, but with regards to mixing AB figure-8s and AB omnis, the answer to your question is: whatever sounds good for the group and the space and the piece. The point isn't to make a new array with a specific ratio -- it's to give yourself the ability to mix with just one or the other or anywhere in between.
Old 16th May 2018
  #20
Hi Christian, thanks for the info -- much appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorseHorse View Post
Not regarding flanks aka outriggers, but with regards to mixing AB figure-8s and AB omnis, the answer to your question is: whatever sounds good for the group and the space and the piece. The point isn't to make a new array with a specific ratio -- it's to give yourself the ability to mix with just one or the other or anywhere in between.
Sorry for phrasing this somewhat narrowly and obtusely. What I should have said, rather than mentioning arbitrary ratios, is the overall interaction between the two patterns (8 + omni). Hoping to get a sense of what approaches have worked for different people who use the combination, as opposed to the more plentiful views of the many coincident acolytes here.

I could be misremembering, but I feel like you posted a very nice recording here a while back using quite widely spaced (and high) 8's as outriggers on a choral (or heavily vocal) ensemble, with some kind of main pair in the center. These are the sorts of things I'm trying to get a clearer sense of, and discover where my taste is for experimentation on my own.

Many thanks as always.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump