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Heavy-handed "ethnic" attempts by the classical composers Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 4 days ago
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
This is one thing that always struck me, even from the earliest days of my piano lessons-- there was a whole phony tradition of composers almost "mocking" the traditions of "different" cultures... Haydn with his entrance of the Queen of Sheba being the most glaring of the bunch-- he had her pirouetting on twinkle toes, when I really thought a slinky, smokey sashaying would be more middle Eastern, more exotic and sensuous. But that's the issue-- people reaching out of their zone, grasping at the chimera of their imaginations, a twinkle-toey dream of what life in the desert was like.

But then, the closer to home, obviously, the less disconnected and erroneous. I recorded a concert yesterday with Mozart summoning up Turkish armies-- yeah, a little garish, but by the 18th century, militarism was universal enough and it worked, more or less. Then you got Faure, a Frenchman, imagining a languid evening across the landscape over in Italy... and he gets a nice, dreamy, mystical effect... he must have even visited the place once or twice, seems like...

Sicilienne - Sage City Symphony - Clyp
Sorry, I’m not following you here Joel. There is no mocking going on. It’s non-western music being appropriated into a western tradition. It’s not meant to be authentic, nor does it pretend to be. It’s music of other cultures as seen through the lens of western composers and reinterpreted.

It’s all good and healthy and there are so many examples of cross cultural composing.

Japanese, Korean, and Chinese composers have fused western music with music of their respective cultures.

Likewise, there are examples of Middle Eastern composers doing the same, especially from Turkey.

Dvorak used Native American rhythms in his American string quartet.

Debussy was influenced by the Indonesian gamelan orchestra as were the minimalist composers.

Latin American music borrowed from African rhythms.

The Kol Nidre, Jewish Synogoue Music, is used by Max Bruch in a piece by the same name for cello and orchestra: a gorgeous work very much in a western tradition.

Classical composers have borrowed from European folk music both from within and without of their country: Haydn, Schubert, Copland, Dvorak, Brahms, Liszt, Schoenberg Chopin, Mahler, Bartók, Kodaly - yes, it’s played with a classical “accent” but that’s to be expected.
Old 3 days ago
  #62
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Old 3 days ago
  #63
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Old 3 days ago
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shosty View Post
Sorry, I’m not following you here Joel. There is no mocking going on. It’s non-western music being appropriated into a western tradition. It’s not meant to be authentic, nor does it pretend to be. It’s music of other cultures as seen through the lens of western composers and reinterpreted.

It’s all good and healthy and there are so many examples of cross cultural composing.

Japanese, Korean, and Chinese composers have fused western music with music of their respective cultures.

Likewise, there are examples of Middle Eastern composers doing the same, especially from Turkey.

Dvorak used Native American rhythms in his American string quartet.

Debussy was influenced by the Indonesian gamelan orchestra as were the minimalist composers.

Latin American music borrowed from African rhythms.

The Kol Nidre, Jewish Synogoue Music, is used by Max Bruch in a piece by the same name for cello and orchestra: a gorgeous work very much in a western tradition.

Classical composers have borrowed from European folk music both from within and without of their country: Haydn, Schubert, Copland, Dvorak, Brahms, Liszt, Schoenberg Chopin, Mahler, Bartók, Kodaly - yes, it’s played with a classical “accent” but that’s to be expected.
Sure, but there's also got to be a lot of stuff like Gilbert and Sullivan's The Mikado.
Old 3 days ago
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badmark View Post
Sure, but there's also got to be a lot of stuff like Gilbert and Sullivan's The Mikado.
I can't speak to music theatre. I don't know enough about it.

I'm referring to what is traditionally called "western classical music" and specifically to the sorts of examples he gave (i.e. Handel Queen of Sheeba and Mozart using Turkish themes).

I supposed there may be some examples in opera that people could point to as objectionable.

But merely using music from other cultures - totally benign, even positive.
Old 3 days ago
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shosty View Post
I can't speak to music theatre. I don't know enough about it.

I'm referring to what is traditionally called "western classical music" and specifically to the sorts of examples he gave (i.e. Handel Queen of Sheeba and Mozart using Turkish themes).

I supposed there may be some examples in opera that people could point to as objectionable.

But merely using music from other cultures - totally benign, even positive.
Arthur Sullivan also wrote symphonies etc, so I don't get your reasoning for excluding his work from 'what is traditionally called "western classical music".

Last edited by badmark; 3 days ago at 01:09 AM.. Reason: typo
Old 3 days ago
  #67
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One of my favorite scenes....

Old 3 days ago
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badmark View Post
Arthur Sullivan also wrote symphonies etc, so I don't get your reasoning for excluding his work from 'what is traditionally called "western classical music".
Because most music theatre is aimed primarily to entertain. There is a gray area, to be sure, but I can’t class Mikado in the same camp as Mahler, Mozart, Brahms, etc.

Yes, his symphonies would be considered classical IMO. Mikado, no.
Old 3 days ago
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shosty View Post
Because most music theatre is aimed primarily to entertain. There is a gray area, to be sure, but I can’t class Mikado in the same camp as Mahler, Mozart, Brahms, etc.

Yes, his symphonies would be considered classical IMO. Mikado, no.
So Mozart's symphonies you would consider 'classical' but his opera/music theatre 'The Abduction from the Seraglio' isn't? Seems kind of arbitrary distinctions you're making.
Old 3 days ago
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badmark View Post
So Mozart's symphonies you would consider 'classical' but his opera/music theatre 'The Abduction from the Seraglio' isn't? Seems kind of arbitrary distinctions you're making.
Nope, I didn't say that. Mozart's operas I would also classify as under the umbrella of "western classical music".

I just finished playing in a concert and out of curiosity I asked several of my friends if they considered The Mikado as "classical music". They all said no.

I'm probably not going to convince you but it seems quite obvious to me. The style of music theatre, as in The Mikado, is closer to popular music, not "classical".

P.s.”Muisc theatre” and “ opera” are two distinct genres.

Last edited by shosty; 3 days ago at 03:53 AM..
Old 3 days ago
  #71
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Okay, got it, if there's any heavy-handed ethno-cultural appropriation going on then it can't be 'classical music', it must be 'popular'.
Old 3 days ago
  #72
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Originally Posted by Uncle Russ View Post
The New York subway system has eliminated the words "ladies" and "gentlemen" from its announcements because they are "sexist" and replaced all references to people with "gender-neutral" words (i.e., "passengers").

Similarly, with respect to this topic, I propose we recompose all music, starting with the classics, to sound politically correct. Who's with me?!
All music and art today is the result of a fusion of cultures, ideas and traditions. The Beatles are a classic case with what they owe to African American music. The idea that culture should should be balkanised and remain pure is as absurd as wanting to go back to the days where inter racial marriage was banned. Calls of cultural appropriation whenever an artist uses their imagination to create a story or musical work are as absurd as attempting to stop Asian cultures from experimenting with rock n roll. Why the helll not? The west don't own it! A person of whatever skin colour, culture or gender should be free to create whatever art they want. We can debate if the art is good. The instant we question the right of the creator to create based on these crude human differences like genitalia, country of birth or ethnicity, we are doing exactly what racists before us did!
Old 3 days ago
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badmark View Post
Okay, got it, if there's any heavy-handed ethno-cultural appropriation going on then it can't be 'classical music', it must be 'popular'.
I never said that either. I actually haven’t said anything about pop music’s guilt or innocence regarding “heavy handed ethno-cultural appropriation”.
Old 3 days ago
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
This is one thing that always struck me, even from the earliest days of my piano lessons-- there was a whole phony tradition of composers almost "mocking" the traditions of "different" cultures... Haydn with his entrance of the Queen of Sheba being the most glaring of the bunch-- he had her pirouetting on twinkle toes, when I really thought a slinky, smokey sashaying would be more middle Eastern, more exotic and sensuous. But that's the issue-- people reaching out of their zone, grasping at the chimera of their imaginations, a twinkle-toey dream of what life in the desert was like.

But then, the closer to home, obviously, the less disconnected and erroneous. I recorded a concert yesterday with Mozart summoning up Turkish armies-- yeah, a little garish, but by the 18th century, militarism was universal enough and it worked, more or less. Then you got Faure, a Frenchman, imagining a languid evening across the landscape over in Italy... and he gets a nice, dreamy, mystical effect... he must have even visited the place once or twice, seems like...
You are referring to "Orientalism" and it was exactly as you perceived it. In the 18th and 19th centuries, western art music portrayed the Eastern world (the Orient) in less than respectful ways. To keep things simple, it happened enough during this time that the concept is explained in music history courses at universities around the world. I should also note that "Orientalism" does not mean the same thing in all artistic disciplines. Towards the end of the 19th century and throughout the entire 20th century, western composers began to explore and study the music of other cultures. This is called "ethnomusicology" and it is a pretty important field of study.
Old 3 days ago
  #75
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Let's not forget also that the majority of people weren't enabled to travel far beyond their immediate village or town, as Joel originally painted the scene...there were no movies or internet or documentaries or railroads or buses to take most folks very far...so you travelled vicariously via books, poetry and music instead.

Except for the wealthy of course (or slaves, or traders)...but I'm talking of the majority here. So there was little challenge or counter-argument possible to any clichés or stereotypes created by the composers or authors, for the realm of the imaginations of their 'consumers'
Old 3 days ago
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Given To Fly View Post
You are referring to "Orientalism" and it was exactly as you perceived it. In the 18th and 19th centuries, western art music portrayed the Eastern world (the Orient) in less than respectful ways. To keep things simple, it happened enough during this time that the concept is explained in music history courses at universities around the world. I should also note that "Orientalism" does not mean the same thing in all artistic disciplines. Towards the end of the 19th century and throughout the entire 20th century, western composers began to explore and study the music of other cultures. This is called "ethnomusicology" and it is a pretty important field of study.
I think you are saying this but for clarity sake, Orientalism is not necessarily a pejorative word. It means any portrayal of eastern culture in the west, whether positive, negative or neutral.

Yes, there are examples in opera that use stereotypes of eastern cultures, but some see ethnocentrism in every attempt to employ eastern music, dance, etc. as the poster seems to in his reference to Handel’s Queen of Sheba.
Old 3 days ago
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shosty View Post
I think you are saying this but for clarity sake, Orientalism is not necessarily a pejorative word. It means any portrayal of eastern culture in the west, whether positive, negative or neutral.
Is there a comparable term to describe the way America is now seen and summarized by the 'rest of the world'
Occidentalism, perhaps ? There should be a law against it...but it's too much fun (and who would enforce it ?)
"Oops, we insulted you...sorry, it was just an unfortunate oxident"
Old 3 days ago
  #78
Hindsight is an unreliable indicator without context. Historically very few people would have benefitted from a knowledge of a geographically-remote 'other' as we do today - an opera or themed musical recital would have been one such education, exotic spices and materials another.
The real tension here is between a worldview of indigenous music as 'sacred' and the natural human tendency to mimic.
Old 3 days ago
  #79
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There are likely VERY few remaining endogenous/indigenous cultures in existence today...untouched and unaffected by contact with the wider world...perhaps deep in the Amazon jungles or Papua New Guinea alone ? Most others have phone tower (ie internet) connectivity and thus an awareness of or relations with a dominant external cultural influence...to varying degrees

Most of the social bonding and perpetuating practices (song, dance, religion, stories, governance) of these hermetically sealed cultures only have meaning within the social structures they serve...removed from them they become curios, artifacts, museum specimens...the sort of relics the 'civilized west' has been fond of appropriating, mythologizing and lionizing as pure, unsullied and 'genuine'...out of context of the cultures they serve. Lots of Nagras got brought into these places, historically....

Two way street dept: Cargo cult - Wikipedia
Old 2 days ago
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Is there a comparable term to describe the way America is now seen and summarized by the 'rest of the world'
Occidentalism, perhaps ? There should be a law against it...but it's too much fun (and who would enforce it ?)
"Oops, we insulted you...sorry, it was just an unfortunate oxident"
Haha Yes, we “Occidentally” stereotyped you.
Old 2 days ago
  #81
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Which is the largest thread on GS-frenchdeliverance.png
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Old 1 day ago
  #82
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My favorite "fake folk" tune EVER:

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