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Heavy-handed "ethnic" attempts by the classical composers Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 13th February 2018
  #31
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norfolk martin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
Do you mean... Handel and Haydn were different people? I thought they were just different spellings....
No, but I thought but "Chop-in" and and "Sho-pan" were when I was a kid.
Old 13th February 2018
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12ax7 View Post
Oh, what a bloody giveaway!

Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
.
Come and see the impression inherent in the system!
Old 13th February 2018
  #33
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Ah Joel, you do have a way of starting threads that end up assuming a life of their own
Aside from all that, the recording is quite nice. Just the thing to banish the mid winter blues. Or the mid summer doldrums, if you live on the other end of the globe. Thanks.
Old 14th February 2018
  #34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Can't get more "ethnic" than this YouTube

Porgy and Bess in Moscow...

Nice selection of microphones....
Hard to hear much over the strings' stiff and messy pizzicato, or rather, kerplunks.



Nothing really wrong with Gershwin over how some stodgy orchestral players perform it.

I would give him a break on Rhapsody in Blue. He wrote the thing in a couple weeks and didn't even orchestrate it himself. The original performance was for orchestra about a month after he started writing it. It is kind of his Bolero, which, side note, Ravel himself hated, or rather, hated its success since it "contains no music"

American composers kind of had to rely on Jazz since there wasn't a definitive american style. For crying out loud, we had to hire a Czech composer to try to create one for us.
Old 14th February 2018
  #35
Quote:
Originally Posted by rumleymusic View Post
American composers kind of had to rely on Jazz since there wasn't a definitive american style.
Who knows what could have happened if composers like Ives were treated with greater seriousness by the establishment during their lifetimes...
Old 14th February 2018
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumleymusic View Post
American composers kind of had to rely on Jazz since there wasn't a definitive american style. For crying out loud, we had to hire a Czech composer to try to create one for us.
The thing that kind of separates American music from that of Europe is the fact that our musical traditions are deeply rooted in the secular and social aspects of the "common" people, with a heavy dose of social oppression.

What we refer to as popular music today, which encompasses many hundreds of styles of music was essentially born out of the strife and stress of oppression and poverty: the blues, jazz, country, bluegrass, folk music of many different cultures who all brought their folk music with them from the rest of the world.

In Europe classical art music was born and bred in the church and the courts of the aristocracy by composers who were paid to create high art full time. And it wasn't until the early 20th Century that those composes like Holst and Grainger started using the European folk music as a more direct basis for their compositions.

And as my college jazz band director and jazz history teacher would say, "jazz IS America's classical music".
Old 14th February 2018
  #37
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The thing that really make my skin crawl is when classical composers try to use Native American influences in their orchestral music.

Being Indian myself and living in Oklahoma, I get to hear several attempt per year at this. It doesn't really matter if it's an American Indian composer or a Caucasian composer, it just never feels authentic or respectful to either musical tradition to me.

I think alot of it has to do with the different roles that music serves in American Indian culture. It's not really something that you sit in a quiet concert hall and listen to with your hands folded neatly in your lap. It's something that you participate in, either singing, drumming, flute playing or that you dance to, and is approached in a much more reverent and spiritual manner.
Old 14th February 2018
  #38
It's interesting that in the best music zero f#cks are given about cultural appropriation; politically-correct music sucks IMO.
Old 14th February 2018
  #39
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Labeling something as 'cultural appropriation' smacks of tribalism IMHO ("its ours and you can't use it!"). Humankind cannot advance without appreciating and celebrating its differences while sharing its common experience. Synthesis of the music of different cultures, if done successfully, allows diverse cultures to appreciate each other in ways that break down the stigma of tribalism. That said, I do appreciate that which J.C. Bigler points out above - sensitivity and contextual understanding must be at the heart of the composer's recipe. Thank goodness Handel, Haydn and Mozart and likewise Ellington and Gershwin were not subject to the rule of political correctness.
Old 14th February 2018
  #40
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As a composer working outside the strict confines of one's cultural roots, you have to be prepared to be judged by history...and perhaps not kindly, if you are content merely with employing tokenistic or caricatured motifs.

In my country we have an early example in John Antill's "Corroboree": John Antill - Wikipedia

and a more contemporary one in Peter Sculthorpe's use of indigenous Aboriginal instruments (didgeridoo, clap sticks) to evoke an awareness of the outback landscapes and the presence of the original custodians, who predated European colonization by 60,000 years or more.

As Jim says, at its best it has the potential to enhance cultural understandings and appreciations, and help to break down tribal barriers. The intention behind the composition can be as significant as the composition itself.
Old 14th February 2018
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
It doesn't really matter if it's an American Indian composer or a Caucasian composer, it just never feels authentic or respectful to either musical tradition to me.
An extreme example is the vintage western film version of American Indian
culture.
Old 14th February 2018
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
The thing that kind of separates American music from that of Europe is the fact that our musical traditions are deeply rooted in the secular and social aspects of the "common" people, with a heavy dose of social oppression.
That's what I tell my wife when she complains that I make too much noise in my home studio.
Old 14th February 2018
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
Haydn with his entrance of the Queen of Sheba being the most glaring of the bunch-- he had her pirouetting on twinkle toes, when I really thought a slinky, smokey sashaying would be more middle Eastern, more exotic and sensuous.
Ah well, there's always the uilleann piping version:

YouTube
Old 14th February 2018
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
An extreme example is the vintage western film version of American Indian
culture.
...Even worse than that was the evolution from that crap into the later TV soundtracks. ('The Paradise Syndrome' from the Original Star Trek, and pretty much any 'Chakotay-Centric' episode of Voyager come to mind.)

NOW its even WORSE: We've basically got algorithms "writing" this crap, and just calling up some "Native American Flute" samples for the cues.
.

Last edited by 12ax7; 14th February 2018 at 07:51 PM..
Old 14th February 2018
  #45
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Uncle Russ's Avatar
You guys are focusing only on contemporary lyrics. They are but a minor symptom of insidious centuries old affronts.

We need volunteers to recompose such inaccurate orchestral representations as Patterson rightly calls the "phony tradition of composers almost 'mocking' the traditions of "different" cultures.... " You know, Scheherazade, those culturally insensitive Mozart and Haydn passages he referenced, and so much more.

In the interest of political, social, and cultural correctness and the implied affronts to citizens worldwide, I urge those of us with conscience to recompose western music ... starting with the classics !
Old 14th February 2018
  #46
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I personally believe that the idea that an artist commits some form of "appropriation" (apparently a very very bad evil thing) by being influenced by or using any musical element that originates outside their own culture is as artistically destructive as many of the commercial and technological problems facing musicians.

Once a composer could be pilloried for using elements of another culture in music as a insult to his/her own culture.

Now he or she is pilloried for insulting the other culture.

Both are forms of cultural fascism.
Old 14th February 2018
  #47
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ionian's Avatar
Just write what you dig and don't give a sh!t about what other musicians think of it. Musicians usually sit around bitter and broke anyway and criticize the sh!t out of everything. Best advice I ever got from a very successful producer was, "Don't write anything for musicians. Musicians never buy anything."

I love it all - from Classical, to Gershwin, to the horrible Zimmer soundtracks with their faux middle eastern vocalizations and ramblings to new age with native american flutes. The Les Baxter Polynesian stuff from the 50s is amazing - I can listen to him, or Martin Denny, for that matter, all day.

There's nothing wrong with hearing elements from a foreign or different music style that appeal to you, and then trying to incorporate that into your own writing, as long as your motives are sincere. Never forget, your audience isn't a bunch of musicians who sit around criticizing stuff. Your audience are people who want to be taken on some kind of a trip when they listen to your music.
Old 15th February 2018
  #48
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My favorites are East-West Quantum Leap "Ra" and Spectrasonics "Heart of Africa" and "Heart of Asia".

Tons of inspiration using those libraries.
Old 15th February 2018
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noisewagon View Post
My favorites are East-West Quantum Leap "Ra" and Spectrasonics "Heart of Africa" and "Heart of Asia".

Tons of inspiration using those libraries.
Wow - talk about a blast from the past! I had Heart of Asia on Akai CD Rom that I converted to use with GigaSampler! Great sound library.
Old 15th February 2018
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
Best advice I ever got from a very successful producer was, "Don't write anything for musicians. Musicians never buy anything."
maybe 15-20+ years ago.. but today? I think musicians are probably the only ones willing to actually paying anything for music. that being said, unless your whole shtick is technical ____ <-insert genre), writing for musicians, as in trying to get all fancy technical and **** as opposed to just letting things flow naturally making what sounds amazing to your own ears, isnt a great idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
Never forget, your audience isn't a bunch of musicians who sit around criticizing stuff. Your audience are people who want to be taken on some kind of a trip when they listen to your music.
again, have to disagree here... there are millions upon millions of "musicians" today and if anything they'll respect your abilities and efforts more so than the average "gimme some free **** now, I deserve and demand it dammnit!" punter who will forget about you and your song within seconds of listening. but yeah, "trips" can be a good thing!
Old 15th February 2018
  #51
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I just knew David had to be a Nagra IV-S man (or is it a mono machine ?)....and so utterly English !

Now is as good a time as any to introduce the fatherlode of ethnomusicological amalgams: African Sanctus

For those here not born then or unaware of the impact of David Fanshawe's 1972 "African Sanctus", I'll add a few links below.

Here is the man on location: YouTube

Fanshawe died in 2010, and presumably facilitated and gave his blessing for his collected samples to be used for future musical endeavours.

The wiki page: African Sanctus - Wikipedia

The 1975 BBC documentary: YouTube

Kyrie/Call To Prayer: YouTube

Press responses to the piece: African Sanctus Press Reports/Quotes

Those who like to keep their religious observances and cultural expressions 'ethnically pure' should probably avert their eyes and ears from all of the above linked material...but it kinda gets directly to the nub of what we're talking about here... Fanshawe's alchemy created a new celebratory and devotional work, whatever you may think of its inherent musical and compositional qualites

And....African Sanctus is still performed today in concert... the number of amateur performances logged on YouTube attest to the enduring power of the piece. Amen

Last edited by studer58; 15th February 2018 at 07:03 AM..
Old 15th February 2018
  #52
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by JCBigler View Post
The thing that kind of separates American music from that of Europe is the fact that our musical traditions are deeply rooted in the secular and social aspects of the "common" people, with a heavy dose of social oppression.
You seem to forget the vast wealth of Folk music that is inherent in the culture of virtually every country in Europe.

This is the music of the common people and can be different from village to village.

Wonderful music that comes from the soul of the people and are definitely "deeply rooted in the secular and social aspects of the "common" people".
Old 16th February 2018
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
You seem to forget the vast wealth of Folk music that is inherent in the culture of virtually every country in Europe.

This is the music of the common people and can be different from village to village.

Wonderful music that comes from the soul of the people and are definitely "deeply rooted in the secular and social aspects of the "common" people".


Old 16th February 2018
  #54
I regularly play the oldest known (commonly-used) folk song of the British Isles: Nottamun Town. It's around 500 years old - kept alive by 'the folkies' and it's foundation is present in Scarborough Fayre and Masters of War and many more.
Songs have a life of their own and can cross oceans and deserts on the wind.
Old 16th February 2018
  #55
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I don't know about other musical cultures, but the large majority of English folk song is neither particularly old, nor rooted in the "soul of the people". It derives mostly from broadsides and from 18th and 19th century entertainments such as the pleasure gardens and music hall.
Old 16th February 2018
  #56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peller View Post
I don't know about other musical cultures, but the large majority of English folk song is neither particularly old, nor rooted in the "soul of the people". It derives mostly from broadsides and from 18th and 19th century entertainments such as the pleasure gardens and music hall.
I'm sure there was folk music (in the sense of folk>volk>the people) prior to what it may be represented as now; for example, the coastal and waterway traditions; bards, balladeers, and troubadors; town criers and Morris-men. Music is autochthonous really. I guess there's a point where instinctual cultural activities become classified into discrete traditions but in practice music is more of a continuous evolving stream without borders.
Old 16th February 2018
  #57
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Old 16th February 2018
  #58
8/ Surfeit of lampreys.
Old 16th February 2018
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Russ View Post
The New York subway system has eliminated the words "ladies" and "gentlemen" from its announcements because they are "sexist" and replaced all references to people with "gender-neutral" words (i.e., "passengers").

Similarly, with respect to this topic, I propose we recompose all music, starting with the classics, to sound politically correct. Who's with me?!

I think that playing music which is not based on or related your one's own racial/ethnic/cultural/skin-colour/religous group(s) should be illegal, and that people who have already committed such racial/ethnic/cultural/skin-colour/religious group appropriation should have to give the $$$ over to such groups.

Old 16th February 2018
  #60
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Of course, that would put a crimp in the style of people from various parts of the world playing 18th-to-20th Century European music.
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