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Neumann KM184 vs Schoeps MK4 on main microphones Condenser Microphones
Old 10th January 2018
  #1
Gear Head
 

Neumann KM184 vs Schoeps MK4 on main microphones

Hello,

I have made a comparison test on recording pipe organ with the KM184 and MK4 mic.

Setup : Stereo DIN (90°-20cm) - 7,20m heigh - 6m to the organ pipes.

Do you ear difference ?

Old 10th January 2018
  #2
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huub's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganMaster View Post
Hello,

I have made a comparison test on recording pipe organ with the KM184 and MK4 mic.

Setup : Stereo DIN (90°-20cm) - 7,20m heigh - 6m to the organ pipes.

Do you ear difference ?

I might just be hearing what my brain is expecting

But yes, the schoeps sounds more pleasant and sounds like a schoeps
Old 10th January 2018
  #3
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Thank you for posting this comparison. The difference is more subtle than one might expect and I would be happy with the recording from either set of mics. (I'm not sure that my old ears would be successful in consistently differentiating between the two in an ABX test).
Old 10th January 2018
  #4
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jnorman's Avatar
While the cmc64s are my go-to main pair these days, I still like the km184/140 sound, and in this case, I believe I prefer the neumann sound to the Schoeps. The Neumanns offer a nice clean definition to the organ.
Old 10th January 2018
  #5
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Thanks for posting. I'm not sure which I prefer either.

The Neumann seemed to pull the organ sound out of the room just a bit more than the Schoeps, which seemed to blend it in with the room sound just a bit more. Both were very nice.

-Mike
Old 11th January 2018
  #6
Yes, thank you for posting. I found the high-end of the Neumann fatiguing and prefer the smoothness of the Schoeps. It seems to me that this is a fairly textbook example of qualities often associated with both mics... cheers!
Old 15th January 2018
  #7
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elpillo's Avatar
 

Thanks for posting the comparison!

If I had to choose between the two, I'd keep the rounder sound of the Schoeps.
Old 19th January 2018
  #8
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Don S's Avatar
 

Thanks for posting! It specifically shows why Schoeps costs double!
Old 23rd January 2018
  #9
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d_fu's Avatar
 

Out of curiosity, why would you record an organ with cardioids, losing lots of low end that omnis will reproduce....?
Old 25th January 2018
  #10
Gear Head
 

I don't like cardioids but in some very reverberant rooms, the omni don't give a definite sound.
Old 25th January 2018
  #11
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i do like cardioids and they do not lose lots of low end
Old 25th January 2018
  #12
Gear Head
 

@d_fu, Look this comparison with schoeps MK4 and MK2s (cardioid and omni)

Old 25th January 2018
  #13
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...i should have been more precise: assuming you put cardioids in the same spot as omnis, of course you'll get somewhat less bass - knowing the characteristics of different mic pattern, do we put them in the same place? most likely not (unless we are forced to)!
if i'd be recording an organ, i'd probably start with something wider as well.

to get back to my statement: i mostly record orchestras and small ensembles and i do use more cardioids than others: this starts with the main ortf, goes on to soloists, some spot mics, harp, even basses (neuheiser here, most other mics are schoeps, a few b&k).
using multiple mics, i prefer the narrower pickup of cardioids for better separation between sections and i have to roll off less low end (as there usually is some bass build up anyway, at least in those places that i get to record), maybe due some boundary effect with having cardioids close to the floor (for cello, bass, horns) or reflectiv surfaces (piano lid).
actually, i sometimes prefer getting this kind of 'false' low end; it feels closer to the experience i get on stage (i'm a percussion player)

so here again: i do like cardioids and they do not lose lots of low end :-)
Old 26th January 2018
  #14
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d_fu's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
i do like cardioids and they do not lose lots of low end
With the right kind of organ, yes they do.
Old 26th January 2018
  #15
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
i do like cardioids and they do not lose lots of low end

You are very lucky that you don't mind what you have been missing.
Old 26th January 2018
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo View Post
You are very lucky that you don't mind what you have been missing.
'And the love that I feel is so far away:
I'm a bad dream that I just had today
and you shake your head
and say it's a shame.'
Old 26th January 2018
  #17
Gear Head
 

Have you listened my last comparison omni/cardioid #12 ?

I think it depends on the organ and the acoustics of the church.
In my video, the first organ sounds more defined with the cardioids but the 16 'have been attenuated. The second organ sounds too defined with the cardioids (probably too close to the organ) and sounds more natural with the omnis.
Old 26th January 2018
  #18
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i haven't been recording organs often enough that i feel qualified to comment on your recordings, maybe except for one thing: i'd say that your recordings show as well that there is a place for cardioids in classical recordings!

(in your situation, i probably would have opted for cardioids for mains and would have put one addition mic with a pattern of choice for specific low frequency pickup - i'm not mentioning my most likely choice as i fear some purists would start crying again... also, i don't wanna hijack this thread any longer; sorry to those who feel embarrassed)
Old 26th January 2018
  #19
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d_fu's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrganMaster View Post
Have you listened my last comparison omni/cardioid #12 ?

I think it depends on the organ and the acoustics of the church.
In my video, the first organ sounds more defined with the cardioids but the 16 'have been attenuated. The second organ sounds too defined with the cardioids (probably too close to the organ) and sounds more natural with the omnis.

Most of the parameters you mention have to do with positioning. That does not alter the fact that you need pressure transducers to capture the full bass of an organ.

I don't really know if I could find the files, but I have on one occasion had a good result with an ORTF and a single omni to add bass...
Old 26th January 2018
  #20
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elektrovolt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
'And the love that I feel is so far away:
I'm a bad dream that I just had today
and you shake your head
and say it's a shame.'
'Thick as a brick' is a great song!

But you do actually need a pressure transducer to be able to pick up the thunderous low end of an organ in such a space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fu
Most of the parameters you mention have to do with positioning. That does not alter the fact that you need pressure transducers to capture the full bass of an organ.

I don't really know if I could find the files, but I have on one occasion had a good result with an ORTF and a single omni to add bass...
Second this. Positioning is very important and one single omni could help a lot. Still I'd prefer to place the omni's clsoer to the organ, taking the omni-cardioid distance factor of 1,7 into account.
Old 26th January 2018
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elektrovolt View Post
'thick as a brick' is a great song! - you do actually need a pressure transducer to be able to pick up the thunderous low end of an organ in such a space
unfortunately, ian anderson should have stopped singing a long time ago (he's still a great performer/ 'interesting' character and flute player though...)

regarding low end, blm and tlm worked fine so far, yet next time i'll get to record an organ (bigger than the portative i mostly get in orchestras) i'll try what you are suggesting - any specific model that you could recommend?
Old 26th January 2018
  #22
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elektrovolt's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
unfortunately, ian anderson should have stopped singing a long time ago (he's still a great performer/ 'interesting' character and flute player though...)

regarding low end, blm and tlm worked fine so far, yet next time i'll get to record an organ (bigger than the portative i mostly get in orchestras) i'll try what you are suggesting - any specific model that you could recommend?
Depends on what kind of omni mics you have around. I am using two old Schoeps cmt55 mics, but my super cheap Naiant omni mics also perform well
Old 9th February 2018
  #23
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although i'm recording mostly with schoeps (for mains, spots and ambis), i have to admit that two weeks ago, i ended up using a pair of neuheisers as my main mics while recording some renaissance music (gesualdo, monteverdi) - not yet shure whether it's the hf boost or the noise floor (i used the digital version) though...
Old 10th February 2018
  #24
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
although i'm recording mostly with schoeps (for mains, spots and ambis), i have to admit that two weeks ago, i ended up using a pair of neuheisers as my main mics while recording some renaissance music (gesualdo, monteverdi) - not yet shure whether it's the hf boost or the noise floor (i used the digital version) though...
What's a Neuheiser?

Both Neumann and Sennheiser make digital mics. and they are very different from each other ???
Old 10th February 2018
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
What's a Neuheiser?
I believe they are a subsidiary of Sennmann.
Old 10th February 2018
  #26
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since sennheiser bought neumann, they all became 'neuheiser' (funny term in german...)

i used a pair of neumann km184d in ortf into a dmi2
Old 11th February 2018
  #27
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
since sennheiser bought neumann, they all became 'neuheiser' (funny term in german...)

i used a pair of neumann km184d in ortf into a dmi2
Sennheiser do keep the Neumann brand separate with different management and Neumann still based in Berlin.

Though it's interesting that Neumann Berlin (Neumann's second company founded just after WWII) is now owned by Sennheiser - and Microtech Gefell is still owned by Neumann's first (1928) company.
Old 11th February 2018
  #28
Gear Nut
 

On their website they say, that the production of the Neumann mics has moved to the Sennheiser factory in Wedemark near Hannover.
Old 11th February 2018
  #29
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RFrommann View Post
On their website they say, that the production of the Neumann mics has moved to the Sennheiser factory in Wedemark near Hannover.
Yes, but from the same web page:

"The company headquarters, with the development, marketing, sales and service departments, continues to be located in Berlin, where the 75th anniversary of the company was celebrated in 2003 and the 80th anniversary in 2008."

I haven't tried, but I suspect when you call Neumann, you don't go through the Sennheiser switchboard...
Old 11th February 2018
  #30
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Continental's Avatar
 

had sale my km184 long time ago, to harsh, high end had always working on my nerve, schoeps in this video much better....
maybe neumann bring out a reissue of the km84, and sent this km184 to the hell lol
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