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Snakes, snakes, snakes... Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 15th January 2018
  #31
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I'd be interested to see some specs for the Cat6 you guys are using on long runs because those that Ive seen are dreadful compared to audio cable. I'd be amazed if theres specs for how microphonic it is, but anecdotally compared to mogami multi?

I have something in the summer which will need a 100yd and a 300yd mic cable so it would be good to know if I can get away with a cheapo option. It would save me having to blag cables
Old 15th January 2018
  #32
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tourtelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumbergh View Post
I'd be interested to see some specs for the Cat6 you guys are using on long runs because those that Ive seen are dreadful compared to audio cable. I'd be amazed if theres specs for how microphonic it is, but anecdotally compared to mogami multi?

I have something in the summer which will need a 100yd and a 300yd mic cable so it would be good to know if I can get away with a cheapo option. It would save me having to blag cables
No, just can't be good. Sorry. Analog over Cat-cable is just a bad idea unless you have no other choice.

I remember in the old days doing horse racing for TV. Thousands of feet of cable to mics around the track. Efx mic into an RTS line driver and line level to the truck. Now, it wasn't Mozart but I can't see what would be wrong with preamps out at your mics at make gain. We used to run the signal back on Telco wire; left it in place for the salvagers when we wrapped. I think golf was much the same.

That's why Dante. Pristine digital signal down 100M of Cat-cable. Need 200M? Add a simple Netgear ($10 at the thrift store) switch. Need 300M? You get the point.

D.
Old 17th January 2018
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
No, just can't be good. Sorry. Analog over Cat-cable is just a bad idea unless you have no other choice.
Thats my gut feeling (and what specs suggest) but people here are recommending it for long mic level runs so I'm intrigued.
Old 17th January 2018
  #34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumbergh View Post
Thats my gut feeling (and what specs suggest) but people here are recommending it for long mic level runs so I'm intrigued.
Actually, when you look at what happens to phantom power when you add the capacitance of a long mic cable (Anything more than 100'), there are very compelling reasons to locally pre-amplify the signal and transmit via line level.
WRT using CAT6SSTP for long run analog links, there are tradeoffs. Using our custom built Jensen 990 line driver with the isolators, we were just able to get 16k performance at 1000' to the satellite truck using Belden 8451. 20k was about -1.2dB.
With just about 1/10th the capacitance, the CAT6sstp should get me about an extra 1/2 octave in the top end. Handling noise should be roughly similar to any beldafoil snake. (Which you want for the 100% shielding)
As always, YMMV.
All the best,
-mark
Old 17th January 2018
  #35
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In this case .243Win and possibly .300Win are the compelling reasons not to site the hired SD recorder and the operator near the mics!
Old 18th January 2018
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumbergh View Post
In this case .243Win and possibly .300Win
Sorry, what are these measurements of ?
Old 18th January 2018
  #37
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Hunting rifle calibres, I have to record and measure the effectiveness of some sound moderators.
Old 18th January 2018
  #38
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Ah, ok..out of my realm of experience, but I can appreciate that acoustic measurements would be of value in that context
Old 18th January 2018
  #39
Still old-school here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy-boy View Post
So, are most people done with using copper cable snakes, even if the intended use is regular audio (not digital)? Nobody still digging a traditional snake, even for 8 or fewer channels?
I am still using a 12 channel broadcast snake with 50' and 100' Mogami throws. Why? Because it's paid for! And because my preamps require manual gain setting and my ADC's require a short FireWire cable to my computer.

Of course, if I were building a remote rig from scratch today, I'd do something entirely different. A pair of Grace m108's would do everything I need, but the Grace exemplifies the problem with these kind of solutions, including Horus, RedNet, etc.: You don't get to mix and match preamps and converters. I guess if you like the ADC, you can run the analog inputs at unity gain and buy a remote-controlled multi-channel preamp from Millennia or Grace. Rack all that stuff up and it doesn't weigh any less than my snake! Also, is anyone else bothered that all these digitally-linked units have fans?

For the moment, at least, I'm allocating my capital budget toward mics.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording
Old 18th January 2018
  #40
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tourtelot's Avatar
Hi David. Regarding the fans in the Grace m108; these are user adjustable with one of the settings being "off." There are specific recommendations from Grace regarding ventilation in that case, and an automatic over-ride if the preamps get above a certain temperature inside, but that hasn't occurred for me so far. Dead quiet.

As far as mixing and matching preamps, I saw that a lot in the "pop music" world but that, at least for me, is a non-issue recording acoustic music where I a always looking for the preamps that impart the least signature to the sound.

Grace, and some others, are well regarded for being neutral and that is the only character I want.

I don't think there is anything out there that does so much and so well. Just my $.02 but I recommend these without question.

No, let's talk about cost and I'll give you that one

D.
Old 18th January 2018
  #41
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick View Post
I am still using a 12 channel broadcast snake with 50' and 100' Mogami throws. Why? Because it's paid for! And because my preamps require manual gain setting and my ADC's require a short FireWire cable to my computer.

Of course, if I were building a remote rig from scratch today, I'd do something entirely different. A pair of Grace m108's would do everything I need, but the Grace exemplifies the problem with these kind of solutions, including Horus, RedNet, etc.: You don't get to mix and match preamps and converters. I guess if you like the ADC, you can run the analog inputs at unity gain and buy a remote-controlled multi-channel preamp from Millennia or Grace. Rack all that stuff up and it doesn't weigh any less than my snake! Also, is anyone else bothered that all these digitally-linked units have fans?

For the moment, at least, I'm allocating my capital budget toward mics.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording
Hi David,

People who have been in the business long enough all have the same issue as you; owning big fat heavy snake cables, but paid for.

However. there are some very convincing reasons as why we should switch to digital snake cable. Short analog mic cable run would be no.1. Then, there is this fully programmable and repeatable gain setting ability that pretty much comes with every new front-end. The third one I value a lot is the total weight reduction; my big 24 channel snake weights over 90 lbs. alone. No fun lugging around that much of weight. There are other not so obvious reasons, such as the newer and better sounding AD converters chips that come with the new front-end box, built-in mic pres that have better gain mapping and integration between the pres and ADC, newer generation of the boxes all use universal power supply, a huge plus if the box has to travel across the ocean. We all know none of that will make you a better recording engineer but your life quality as one might improve a little.



All the best,

Da-Hong
Old 18th January 2018
  #42
As far as mixing preamps and converters go - I'm of the opinion that preamps matter far more than converters nowadays, and if you buy something like the Grace, you get a very clean preamp and a great ADC. If I wanted a particular sound, I'd be happy putting a "color" preamp in front of the Grace and setting the Grace for unity.
Old 18th January 2018
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumbergh View Post
In this case .243Win and possibly .300Win are the compelling reasons not to site the hired SD recorder and the operator near the mics!
I shoot 5.56 NATO, 7.62x39 commie and 6.5 Grendel 10 feet from my AKG 460B's and the Tascam DR-70D recorder. The on-board mic pads and the limiter in the 70D gives me very clear gunshots without clipping or distortion.

.50 Beowulf might be another story...
Old 18th January 2018
  #44
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tourtelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
The on-board mic pads and the limiter in the 70D gives me very clear gunshots without clipping or distortion.
Best ever for gunshots, large and small? Narga 4.2 in Record/No Limiter. Pin that needle for the best results.

D.
Old 19th January 2018
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick View Post
I am still using a 12 channel broadcast snake with 50' and 100' Mogami throws. Why? Because it's paid for! And because my preamps require manual gain setting and my ADC's require a short FireWire cable to my computer.
Maybe something like Audinate Dante AVIO comes to the rescue..on a small scale (ie low channel count) to begin with ?

Audinate Dante AVIO adapters | AudioTechnology Magazine
Old 22nd January 2018
  #46
Gear Addict
I’ll let Doug speak for the M108, but I the case of Hapi/Horus, using the Merging preamps and converters is a no-compromise proposition, at least for recording acoustic music.

Hapi has no fan and can provide 16 channels of preamps & A/D in a 1U. We ran them last month in up to 85 (29.4C) degrees ambient with no problems. They run cool. If Horus runs as cool, you may never hear the fan at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick View Post
A pair of Grace m108's would do everything I need, but the Grace exemplifies the problem with these kind of solutions, including Horus, RedNet, etc.: You don't get to mix and match preamps and converters. I guess if you like the ADC, you can run the analog inputs at unity gain and buy a remote-controlled multi-channel preamp from Millennia or Grace. Rack all that stuff up and it doesn't weigh any less than my snake! Also, is anyone else bothered that all these digitally-linked units have fans?

For the moment, at least, I'm allocating my capital budget toward mics.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording
Old 23rd January 2018
  #47
I have used a Grace m108 regularly for the past several months -- including some very warm indoor environments -- and have never had the fan come on.

Since its purpose is to protect the circuitry in the event of extreme heat, it is more of a "safety fan" than a "cooling fan" per se. Just wanted to chime in for anyone wondering, since before purchasing I too was concerned about the fan being a potential nuisance.
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