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Decca Tree Recording Enhancer Plugins
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

Thread Starter
Yucca Tree

Recorded with a complete Decca Tree.

I am interested in the LEFT/RIGHT balance. I went back and forth turning down the right side and then turning it back up.
The post is turned up.

From the pic you can see that the tree is towards the back of the room.

Not sure as is if the strings are washing across to the right side.

Any opinions will be 'tolerated' with gratitude!

Thanks!

Suite 2 by PlantLady Rec Services | Free Listening on SoundCloud
Attached Thumbnails
Decca Tree Recording-pabst-edit.jpg  

Last edited by emenelton; 2 weeks ago at 10:35 PM.. Reason: destinction
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2
Lives for gear
Its a little far back from the ideal position ?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #3
One quick comment...
By my estimation you are about 9 or 10 rows too far back....
All the best,
-mark
Old 2 weeks ago
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
Its a little far back from the ideal position ?

Yeah you're right about that. It was arranged in advance to be further forward and on the day of the concert the conductor, who was new, had instructed the Stage Manager to tell me the new location.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpdonahue View Post
One quick comment...
By my estimation you are about 9 or 10 rows too far back....
All the best,
-mark
Thanks for the look.

The agreed upon position was between the first and second row. It sounds good to me on most systems but sometimes it sounds washed out.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #6
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Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by emenelton View Post
...on the day of the concert the conductor, who was new, had instructed the Stage Manager to tell me the new location.
So you aren't responsible for the sound then. Sigh... Ignorant conductors and stage managers... Why do they think that something is unimportant just because they don't understand it?

My comment, beside the tree being way out of place as has already been pointed out, is that it looks to be huge. I read somewhere (and wrote it down completely out of context, of course I did) that Kenneth Wilkinson's starting point for his trees was 137 cm between the two back mics, with the middle mic 68.5 cm toward the front. Which looks to be like 3x smaller than what I'm seeing in your picture.

That said, I've never had the courage (or access to a sufficiently good acoustic) to use a Decca Tree in anger, so WTF do I know? Just an observation from my research into the mysteries of Decca Trees.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7
Gear Maniac
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
So you aren't responsible for the sound then. Sigh... Ignorant conductors and stage managers... Why do they think that something is unimportant just because they don't understand it?

My comment, beside the tree being way out of place as has already been pointed out, is that it looks to be huge. I read somewhere (and wrote it down completely out of context, of course I did) that Kenneth Wilkinson's starting point for his trees was 137 cm between the two back mics, with the middle mic 68.5 cm toward the front. Which looks to be like 3x smaller than what I'm seeing in your picture.

That said, I've never had the courage (or access to a sufficiently good acoustic) to use a Decca Tree in anger, so WTF do I know? Just an observation from my research into the mysteries of Decca Trees.
This tree used the "full 2-1/2' " spacing. I did that way because I was so far back

This picture shows the outriggers also. The middle two mics are 5' apart, 2-1/2' behind the front mic and a little obscured by the background.

This one was from last spring and the TREE was right up front.

https://soundcloud.com/johnf-1/02-track-02-21
Old 2 weeks ago
  #8
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tourtelot's Avatar
Sounds like you get it. Decca tree right over the conductor's head, flankers wider than they would be in a, let's say, Faulkner array. I usually put them up to six feet out for a large symphony orchestra or concert choir, pretty much the only place I'd use a tree.

Next time, tell the conductor and the stage manager that the only mics that work that far back are frightfully expensive to rent and add three times to the cost of the recording. That'll get your mics in tight where they belong. Dummies.

D.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
Sounds like you get it. Decca tree right over the conductor's head, flankers wider than they would be in a, let's say, Faulkner array. I usually put them up to six feet out for a large symphony orchestra or concert choir, pretty much the only place I'd use a tree.

Next time, tell the conductor and the stage manager that the only mics that work that far back are frightfully expensive to rent and add three times to the cost of the recording. That'll get your mics in tight where they belong. Dummies.

D.
These flankers were ten feet out but bisecting the depth of the VN and Cello sections.
In some ways, on a nice monitor, it sounds like what the listener hears when seated in the hall.
Just wondering if anybody hears it in that way?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #10
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Moke's Avatar
 

Has anyone ever had one of these canopies collapse, or, heard of such a thing?
I was working under one last month, and I couldn't help but think if it tipped sideways, it was coming down on audience heads (at a different show than the image attached).
It took a half dozen large sandbags to keep it in place. It had a serious forward lean going on that had me thinking the stand might just fold-over and collapse.
FWIW,... my rig is the short stand just behind the canopy stand, and the binaural head on stage.
Attached Thumbnails
Decca Tree Recording-dscn3901.jpg  
Old 2 weeks ago
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moke View Post
Has anyone ever had one of these canopies collapse, or, heard of such a thing?
I was working under one last month, and I couldn't help but think if it tipped sideways, it was coming down on audience heads (at a different show than the image attached).
It took a half dozen large sandbags to keep it in place. It had a serious forward lean going on that had me thinking the stand might just fold-over and collapse.
FWIW,... my rig is the short stand just behind the canopy stand, and the binaural head on stage.
Mine is balanced, even with the integrated outriggers, if I loosen the pivot I can freely tilt it but it stays balance wherever I leave it.

Last edited by emenelton; 2 weeks ago at 01:32 AM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #12
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Moke's Avatar
 

Sorry to have bored you with a safety related question.
Enlighten us: How do you balance the rear side of your forward boom?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #13
Gear Maniac
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moke View Post
Sorry to have bored you with a safety related question.
Enlighten us: How do you balance the rear side of your forward boom?
Moke,

I'm the OP, my picture is different from the one you posted and included on the first post on this thread. My emoji wasn't meant to comment on your post.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #14
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Moke's Avatar
 

thank you. but, question remains,... how are you balancing the forward reach?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #15
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moke View Post
thank you. but, question remains,... how are you balancing the forward reach?
There are elements on either side of the pivot that balance it.
It's a bit difficult to actually make out from the pic I posted because it's a thumbnail but if you choose it, either by tapping on it if you have a touchscreen or by left clicking on it with your mouse, the pic will enlarge and the various elements that comprise the stand and boom can be more clearly made out.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #16
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moke View Post
Sorry to have bored you with a safety related question.
Enlighten us: How do you balance the rear side of your forward boom?
Well Moke, this oughta give you something to relish.
Attached Thumbnails
Decca Tree Recording-20170429_164339.jpg  
Old 2 weeks ago
  #17
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Moke's Avatar
 

Really?
With something like that, I hope that there is an abundance of insurance policy to cover it. The liability is massive if that goes down. Nothing says fun quite like litigation.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #18
Gear Nut
 

If it were possible to collapse or "go down", short of sabotage, I wouldn't put it up. All carbon fiber so less than three pounds of boom, with another three pounds or so of mics and cabling. Very light and stable, aided by seventy-five pounds of sandbags at its four foot diameter base.

Thanks for caring though.

Tom
Old 2 weeks ago
  #19
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by tailspn View Post
If it were possible to collapse or "go down", short of sabotage, I wouldn't put it up. All carbon fiber so less than three pounds of boom, with another three pounds or so of mics and cabling. Very light and stable, aided by seventy-five pounds of sandbags at its four foot diameter base.

Thanks for caring though.

Tom
How long is your front to back and how many pieces, please?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #20
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by emenelton View Post
How long is your front to back and how many pieces, please?
It's made of 7/8" carbon fiber tubing to accommodate the Grace Designs SpaceBar fittings. From a custom 12" long X 7/8" ID Delrin locking collar atop the Manfrotto tilting mount, two booms are joined with ferrule within the collar; the forward 8' in length, the rear 6'. Approximately 2' from the front and rear ends two perpendicular 8' booms ate attached. Depending on the hall, the rear boom may be extended with a 6' length to 14' with ferrules to increase the distance between the rear surround mics. The only problem I've encountered is it requires two people to assemble. Until all the pieces and mics are attached, it's out of balance and unstable. Once assembled it's very stable and strong.

One time when completely assembled with mics, I didn't lock completely one of the vertical stand extensions while adjusting the height of another. It dropped about 3' before hitting the stop. It reminded me of a 747 wing in violent turbulence to the degree that the booms bent, but no other effect whatsoever. It's very strong!

Last edited by tailspn; 2 weeks ago at 04:22 AM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #21
Gear Maniac
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by tailspn View Post
It's made of 7/8" carbon fiber tubing to accommodate the Grace Designs SpaceBar fittings. From a custom 12" long X 7/8" ID Delrin locking collar atop the Manfrotto tilting mount, two booms are joined with ferrule within the collar; the forward 8' in length, the rear 6'. Approximately 2' from the front and rear ends two perpendicular 8' booms ate attached. Depending on the hall, the rear boom may be extended with a 6' length to 14' with ferrules to increase the distance between the rear surround mics. The only problem I've encountered is it requires two people to assemble. Until all the pieces and mics are attached, it's out of balance and unstable. Once assembled it's very stable and strong.

One time when completely assembled with mics, I didn't lock completely one of the vertical stand extensions while adjusting the height of another. It dropped about 3' before hitting the stop. It reminded me of a 747 wing in violent turbulence to the degree that the booms bent, but no other effect whatsoever. It's very strong!
Nice
You helped me with info in the past which allowed me to put together my tree.
My forward to back spacing is probably limited to 8' max but the outriggers on my posted photo support 22' wide spacing.

So Thanks for back then and now.

Just wish I hadn't been banished to the back of the hall.
It's a helluva lot of work for the result!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #22
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tourtelot's Avatar
22' (11' on each side) on a single stand? Not being mean here but I hope you have liability insurance. Plus a tree on the front? Whew. My tree goes on a heavy-duty steel stand and has about a "ton" of sand on it. My tree is 2.5' on a side so 5' wide at the widest and I am terrified that some old person in a walker will bump into it.

D.

Sorta reminds me of my early days in the R&R business where one of the arena acts I worked for had a hexagonal lighting truss that was hung on seven 2-ton motors. During rehearsals, lowering the truss, the motor operator engaged the six outside motors and not the center point and started to bring it in. Bing, bing, bing, bing as the aluminum welds started to break. Everyone on the stage scattered and the truss was safely lowered to the ground using all seven motors. The truss had to be completely disassembled, re-welded, totally x-rayed and re-certified in a very short amount of time so the tour could leave on schedule. Not a fun, or cheap, day at the office. And a good thing no one was hurt. Also gotta say that Clair Brothers, my employer for many years, never had anything fall outta the sky that I knew of. I can remember a big riot and fire tho. Good times
Old 2 weeks ago
  #23
Gear Nut
 

I thought that tubing looked familiar

Where was the recording made? Omni's? It sounds remarkably close for omni's positioned that far away. Lovely string tone and feeling of depth within the orchestra. Nice work!
Old 2 weeks ago
  #24
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Moke's Avatar
 

@tailspn

Resonant Frequency.
You cannot avoid the physics of sound.
I've built and designed a couple of custom idler drive turntables and tonearms. Resonant frequency was a rough bit of sound physics that I was not so much aware of when I started designing the tonearms. The realization came hard and quick that it takes a minute vibration to get that tonearm singing its own tune due to it resonant frequency. When it is attained, it sings.
Your rig is not at all different than when I had to work through this issue with a unipivot tonearm in its design phase.
I bet that graphite gets to vibrating at a certain pitch, and adds to the overall color of the recording, at some point, somewhere, at some tone.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #25
Gear Maniac
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
22' (11' on each side) on a single stand? Not being mean here but I hope you have liability insurance. Plus a tree on the front? Whew. My tree goes on a heavy-duty steel stand and has about a "ton" of sand on it. My tree is 2.5' on a side so 5' wide at the widest and I am terrified that some old person in a walker will bump into it.

D.
It's really stable
btw how bad does the recording sound?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #26
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
...I am terrified that some old person in a walker will bump into it.

D.
I agree. I, or an assistant stand next to, usually with a hand on the stand before, and after the concert, and during intermission.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #27
Seems like a very small ensemble for a large Decca Tree (let alone one with flankers), n'est-ce pas?
Attached Images
Decca Tree Recording-deccatreetemp.jpg 
Old 2 weeks ago
  #28
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by tailspn View Post
I agree. I, or an assistant stand next to, usually with a hand on the stand before, and after the concert, and during intermission.
With all pivots loose I weight balance and then tighten and use 4sandbags.
I can push it hard and it doesn't budge. That it reminds some of disasters in the past or unbalanced efforts of today, it's not those things. My stand is also in position where no one ever walks by.

If you notice the 20 ft span does not have significant 'dip'.

Was wondering if you had advice on a direction to go in 'post'; right now it has 1.5 dbs of compression at 1/1.2 and another db picked up in limiting. I'd like to thicken up the mid range but I am not sure what is wrong with how it currently is.

Thanks
Old 2 weeks ago
  #29
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Moke's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildplum View Post
Seems like a very small ensemble for a large Decca Tree (let alone one with flankers), n'est-ce pas?
My rig in all of that is the binaural head at the stage-lip; And the short stand immediately behind the leaning center array, as wide-ORTF cm3 pair, at 4.5'? (guessing height - you can barely make it out).
The tall rigs are a visiting recordist, and that is his rig: three DPA 130v omnis, and a DPA4011 card pair, for five mics on the overhead apparatus.
IMO, the 4011 pair should have been clamped to the vertical stand portion, as he had them out on the forward reach, causing even more loading stress.

It is an all violin octet that I've recorded since 2001. I've always had the patrons expectations in mind, and always run with that consideration. My rigs are always low profile, with compact mics, and are not distractions (the head might be pushing it, but the ensemble loves it).
And, my having recorded violins for so long, I've learned that I prefer the bottom plate sound, as opposed to the stridentcy of the strings on the top side; I get a better angle at the cellos and bass as well, as they all project below the music stands. Learned preferences,... but then I've never much been heard of in this wild world of recording. So, take it all with a grain of salt.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #30
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Moke's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildplum View Post
Seems like a very small ensemble for a large Decca Tree (let alone one with flankers), n'est-ce pas?

This is a quasi-Deccatree that I'm shaded by frequently at these same concerts.
It is a pair of EW QTC1 flanks, with a Royer stereo ribbon on center. I have my DPA 4028 sub-cards clamped to the rig, on center tight to the Royer, in what appears to be an NOS-like pattern.
The Deccatree forward reach is imitated by delay to the flankng omnis.

In the second image,.. I'm the, once again, lower baffled omni pair, that appear to be off-center; not, just camera angle.
Attached Thumbnails
Decca Tree Recording-img_4333.jpg   Decca Tree Recording-img_3159_zpswxqyin3m.jpg  
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