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Beezneez Omni Balls? Condenser Microphones
Old 11th October 2017
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mics View Post
there is way too much conjecture and not enough fact
On your website the description of the omni ball is:

"By fixing the Omni ball to your Microphone in line with the front of the capsule your rear null point will no longer be in effect and the microphone will now capture sources from all directions, not just the front of the capsule. Apparent sensitivity also increases and of course the frequency response will now be affected by the entire room."

I'm guessing it means that the ball is mainly to cover up part of a cardioid mic, as opposed to raising the upper frequencies of an omni microphone.

Last edited by aracu; 11th October 2017 at 05:27 AM..
Old 11th October 2017
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
If creating a reliable flat omni pattern were as simple as blocking off vents with masking tape
Masking tape or other thin material might act more as an undesirable filter to the sound waves and produce a muffled sound. The ball shape might be thick enough around the vents to block sound waves as opposed to filtering them.
Old 11th October 2017
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
Masking tape or other thin material might act more as an undesirable filter to the sound waves and produce a muffled sound. The ball shape might be thick enough around the vents to block sound waves as opposed to filtering them.
....or as I mentioned "2 cent plastic collar", like a 0.5cm piece of cut garden hose, which spring-clings tightly to the curved outer body of the capsule ?

Your 2nd sentence gets back to the horny dilemma of this whole "conflated product"...is it intended as a very bulky and expensive cardioid vent-sealer (and response pattern modifier), or is it a competently designed and sensibly priced APE diffraction ball, intended for omni mics ? Can, or should, it be both ?
Old 11th October 2017
  #34
Hi Ben,

Quote:
Originally Posted by mics View Post
Which microphone manufacturers are rolling around?
You are right, that was a overly dramatic. Nevertheless, the science of capsule design that I have learned dictates that it is always a give and take, and that a pressure transducer needs to be designed differently than other types.

I would be really interested in any measurements you have of the polar patterns/frequency response of cardioids with an APE sphere attached. My expectation is that it will be chaotic, but I am happy to be proven wrong. I would not mind sliding some balls on my Neumann cardioids if it worked well...

Best,
Dirk
Old 11th October 2017
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
is it intended as a very bulky and expensive cardioid vent-sealer (and response pattern modifier), or is it a competently designed and sensibly priced APE diffraction ball, intended for omni mics
I guess it is the same as an APE diffraction ball but described and marketed from the perspective of being placed on a cardioid. Interesting how something familiar can seem unusual.
Old 11th October 2017
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
I guess it is the same as an APE diffraction ball but described and marketed from the perspective of being placed on a cardioid. Interesting how something familiar can seem unusual.
It has surprised me someone with a lot of practical experience in constructing boutique microphone capsules, not has taken more caution and measure frequency and phase response while the balls are mounted on a cardioid like the KM184, because he would have seen from the measurements this trick does not work on a cardioid microphone, at least that is my opinion.

Of course there is nothing against using these balls on the KM183 and KM130 series microphones, and they will offer the same advantages as the balls offered by Neumann.
Old 12th March 2018
  #37
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josephson's Avatar
There are enough confusing statements in this thread that I thought they should be set right. We also supply spherical baffles for use with the C617SET omnidirectional mic. Do not expect such a device to work properly with a cardioid or other pressure-gradient mic. While the pattern may well become omni if you seal the rear vents completely, the frequency response may be greatly altered. The slightest leak will also make it sound really strange. It may be that the result is okay -- just don't be surprised if it isn't.

While it is possible to create a switchable pattern omni/cardioid by closing off the rear vents of the mic (Teladi, Sony, Schoeps, MBHO, and we make or have made mics like this) the sealed rear volume is critical and randomly closing off the side vents of a cardioid captures whatever rear volume is there in the cardioid, not what's right to make an approximately flat omni.

You can indeed successfully use spherical baffles on a free-field equalized omni mic, as we do with the C617SET which uses the Gefell MK221 capsule -- typically +/- 1 dB on-axis to 20 kHz without the baffle, and about +2.5 dB on-axis at about 10k with the baffle. You may find you want a little more HF boost, but doing this with EQ is a reasonable way to do it, you don't need a diffuse-field capsule. There is an article in the AES journal from Wieslaw Woszczyk on different shapes of baffles for different effects -- but all with pressure omni mics.
Old 12th March 2018
  #38
RPC
Gear Addict
 

Shure got asked this question about closing up the ports in an SM81 and answered, "Covering the SM81 slots will certainly make the SM81 capsule less directional, but what will be created is a strange sounding hybrid capsule with a pattern that is not cardioid, yet not quite omnidirectional." SM81 and R104A omni capsule | Knowledge Base | Shure Americas

That said, it is possible that at least in the case of Beesneez' own microphone (Lulu) two wrongs do make a right and the polar pattern change due to the ball cooperates with whatever frequency response change closing the rear port causes. Some measurements would be interesting (at least).
Old 13th March 2018
  #39
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mics's Avatar
 

Hi All. Hopefully this will put minds at ease!

Here is the same mic, with and without the omniball.

No weird stuff there!
Attached Thumbnails
Beezneez Omni Balls?-00f620ef-2bd3-4172-a57f-b39a54674fe6.jpg  
Old 13th March 2018
  #40
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mics's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adorno View Post
It has surprised me someone with a lot of practical experience in constructing boutique microphone capsules, not has taken more caution and measure frequency and phase response while the balls are mounted on a cardioid like the KM184, because he would have seen from the measurements this trick does not work on a cardioid microphone, at least that is my opinion.

Of course there is nothing against using these balls on the KM183 and KM130 series microphones, and they will offer the same advantages as the balls offered by Neumann.
The thing that surprises me is that you would assume that i have not made numerous tests and many hours of modifications and calculations to get the Omniballs just right!

You are right, i have made many capsules, in fact at this stage around 40,000 capsules to date.

We dont make assumptions, we make measurements!

Please take a look at the above graphs, you will see that there is no monkey business here.

We have sold almost 100 pairs and no one has even asked about a refund or return.

Cheers.
Old 13th March 2018
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by mics View Post
Hi All. Hopefully this will put minds at ease!

Here is the same mic, with and without the omniball.

No weird stuff there!
Hi,

I assume this is an on-axis measurement? Looks rather weird to me, to be honest. There is a strong cut between 2k and 6k, which is not what one would expect.

Also, a polar pattern measurement across the frequency spectrum would be what I am interested in, when one is talking about APEs.

Thanks,
Dirk
Old 13th March 2018
  #42
Gear Maniac
 

If you can truly seal up the back of a cardioid mic, the bass response won't look the same as what it is before you seal it. But your graph showed the same...
Old 13th March 2018
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by dseetoo View Post
If you can truly seal up the back of a cardioid mic, the bass response won't look the same as what it is before you seal it. But your graph showed the same...
I freely acknowledge my complete lack of expertise in microphone engineering, but surely a cardioid under proper measuring conditions cannot be flat to 20Hz (first graph) even before considering the bass response with this attachment?
Old 13th March 2018
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukedamrosch View Post
I freely acknowledge my complete lack of expertise in microphone engineering, but surely a cardioid under proper measuring conditions cannot be flat to 20Hz (first graph) even before considering the bass response with this attachment?
That depends on the distance of the sound source.
Old 13th March 2018
  #45
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtf View Post
That depends on the distance of the sound source.
Sorry, yes, that is what I was referring to.

Edit: Please feel free to disregard my comment above, I do not mean to derail the discussion with my perhaps irrelevant musings...
Old 14th March 2018
  #46
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by mics View Post
The thing that surprises me is that you would assume that i have not made numerous tests and many hours of modifications and calculations to get the Omniballs just right!

You are right, i have made many capsules, in fact at this stage around 40,000 capsules to date.

We dont make assumptions, we make measurements!

Please take a look at the above graphs, you will see that there is no monkey business here.

We have sold almost 100 pairs and no one has even asked about a refund or return.

Cheers.
Please show us the phase response of both situations, if possible also above 25k. I am afraid that the large air volume behind the capsule will create certain resonances, probably most noticeble in the phase response. Normally the KM130 is closed directly behind the capsule, in case of what you propagate, the air volume is closed at the openings of the pencil housing, which causes a much larger air volume behind the capsule to be part of the equation.

Last edited by Adorno; 14th March 2018 at 01:07 AM..
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