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Good Musician-Good Space-Good Mics Condenser Microphones
Old 27th September 2017
  #1
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Thread Starter
Good Musician-Good Space-Good Mics

Hi all,

We always talk about the importance of a good musician in a good space and good mics. I think this is a good example:
Last fall we had a concert by one of the top Irish fiddlers, Kevin Burke.
He liked the acoustics of our space so much that at his request we did the concert without the PA. Our space is a 2 story hemisphere-shaped room with a balcony that can seat max. of approx. 300. (we had about 170 for this concert.) The floor is carpeted and the walls/ceiling are plaster that combined with a domed ceiling gives a moderately live acoustic. I recorded the concert with a Soundfield DSF-1 in the center of a 2 ft stereo bar with Josephson C617/MK221 omni's and piggy-backed Sennheiser MKH8050 hypercardiods on either end of the bar. The mics were to stage right and just in front of him with mics above at an approx. 45 deg angle above and 6 feet away. (see attached photo).

The Soundfield DSF-1 was decoded to Blumlein.
The Soundfield DSF-1 preamp/processor outputs AES digital which I recorded at 2496 directly to my SD 788. The 617's and 8050's were recorded to the SD788 via Gordon preamps. No processing other than level boost. I used my ears to subjectively balance the various tracks for approximately equal loudness.
My favorite is the Josephson omni pair.

MP3-320 samples are attached below.

Both 2496 and MP3-320 versions can be downloaded from:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4...m5JdWRmQUNmZEU

As I am posting, Kevin is working with the omni
recording for a live album.

Would love to hear your feedback!

Thanks,
Bill
Attached Thumbnails
Good Musician-Good Space-Good Mics-img_3350.jpg  
Attached Files

spaced 8050 sample MP3-320.mp3 (2.91 MB, 1410 views)

DSF-1 Blumlein sample MP3-320.mp3 (2.91 MB, 1416 views)

spaced 617 sample MP3-320.mp3 (2.91 MB, 1394 views)

Old 27th September 2017
  #2
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The Josephson clip works really well to me, just the way it is, without any extra processing to add. Relaxed, coherent, detailed, including the entire acoustic space surrounding the player, without a distracting mic character sound or room acoustical problem.

The Sennheiser supercardioid pair would need to be placed further away to make a fair comparison.
Old 27th September 2017
  #3
Gear Nut
 

Cool!

I worked on a CD project a few years back (ultimately abandoned) with an Irish fiddler (I play Irish flute, so it was going to be a flute-fiddle duo album recorded live in a nice acoustic space, no accompaniment) and after trying a bunch of different mic combinations and placements we found the most true-to-life and satisfying sound was from a stereo pair of omnis placed about 6 feet away from us. The main issue was the mics picking up everything; we recorded in a house in Nashville on a warm day and had to turn off the AC, refrigerator, remove batteries from clocks, etc. I used a matched stereo pair of Earthworks QTC-40s.
Old 27th September 2017
  #4
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Thread Starter
Thanks for the comments.
It is a nice space and the Josephson's,
esp. through the Gordon, are like being there.

I agree about the 8050's being too close.
As is typical I didn't have the
opportunity to tweak mic position so I went with the 8050's piggy-backed on the Josephson's so I have
the opportunity to choose omni, hypercardiod or create (ala Straus packet) any intermediate pattern.
Now that I have a pair of MKH30's I may try piggy-backing them on the omni's (with 30's also facing forward) so that I can create any pattern from fig 8 to omni. Not sure how best to rig this as the body of the 30's would need to be
perpendicular to the Josephson's.

Likewise the Soundfield gives essentially an infinite variety of options
for coincident patterns. In other situations I have found that the Soundfield decoded to Blumlein +/-
the Josephson's sounds best.

As an aside, my mic bar with all these mics is rather heavy so I always depend
on a Latchlake stand with their rugged
disc-brake syle boom-clutch and "Spin-Grip" at the end of the boom to hold the
mic bar at any angle without sagging.
Old 27th September 2017
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
Now that I have a pair of MKH30's I may try piggy-backing them on the omni's (with 30's also facing forward) so that I can create any pattern from fig 8 to omni.
Thanks for posting this. Nice work.

I'd love to hear a comparison between the soundfield and the MKH combo. I have one MKH30 at the moment and an MKH20 - thinking about getting another MKH30 vs maybe trying the Ambeo.
Old 27th September 2017
  #6
The Omnis are perfect. Nothing else needed. The 8050s are also good but would need some reverb, which you GOT on the Omnis.
Old 27th September 2017
  #7
Gear Addict
 

Thread Starter
Leddy,
Just to clarify, my thought about
MKH30's was considering a "Strauss-packet" piggy-back of the Josephson
omni's with MKH30's which would allow
the choice of pure omni,pure fig 8 or any
intermediate pattern.
Were you asking for a comparison of
the Soundfield decoded to Blumlein vs
a MKH30 pair in Blumlein?
If so, not sure when I will get to it but
definitely is on my radar and will post sample when I do. I have used
the MKH30's for both Blumlein and in combo with MKH8040 and MKH8050 for
MS and they sound terrific.
The Ambeo mic is convenient because of size but can't imagine it could sound as good as the MKH mics. Unless you need
the small size or vertical control, I would
buy another MKH30 and you can do a DIY horizontal-only Ambisonic rig with
2 MKH30's plus MKH20.
Old 27th September 2017
  #8
Gear Addict
 

Thread Starter
Hi Tim, thanks.
Yes I could have added omni's to the
8050's if I needed a drier sound but I agree the omni's are fine as is.
Without a chance to tweak mic position ahead of time it's nice to have options.
Old 28th September 2017
  #9
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
Leddy,
Just to clarify, my thought about
MKH30's was considering a "Strauss-packet" piggy-back of the Josephson
omni's with MKH30's
Gotcha - I read too quickly and missed it.

I think I'm probably better off getting another MKH30 as well. Thanks again.
Old 29th September 2017
  #10
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Adebar's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
Leddy,
Just to clarify, my thought about
MKH30's was considering a "Strauss-packet" piggy-back of the Josephson
omni's with MKH30's which would allow
the choice of pure omni,pure fig 8 or any
intermediate pattern.
Strictly speaking the Strauss Packet ist a combination of a cardiod with an omni.

But you are right. The combination of an omni and a figure eight is much more versatile - and a better combination anyway for several reasons.

This combination you can get in one microphone - the Josephson C700A. Here you have a comination of a SD omni with a LD figure eight.
Old 1st October 2017
  #11
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esldude's Avatar
 

Spaced 8050's just didn't do it for me as well as the other two. Not that any are bad at all. The 8050's do sound a bit close.

Love that omni sound, but when I shuffled them and listened without knowing which was which I ended up picking the blumlein. Have recorded a fair bit of fiddle and Irish whistle playing. Maybe a little too sensitive to being too close to the fiddle (or the whistle for that matter though you don't have one here).
Old 6th October 2017
  #12
all three microphone pairs sound good to me!
Old 6th October 2017
  #13
0VU
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adebar View Post
Strictly speaking the Strauss Packet ist a combination of a cardiod with an omni.
Strictly speaking, it's a Straus Paket, rather than a Strauss Paket/Packet. Either way his name was Volker Straus, rather than Strauss

Just being pedantic.
Old 9th October 2017
  #14
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hbphotoav's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0VU View Post
Strictly speaking, it's a Straus Paket, rather than a Strauss Paket/Packet. Either way his name was Volker Straus, rather than Strauss

Just being pedantic.
Just because you're a pedant does not mean you're incorrect... or unnecessary.

So says another recovering Pedant... who appreciates the lesson.

HB
Old 9th October 2017
  #15
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Adebar's Avatar
OK, Straus-Paket.

I just wanted to say the Straus-Paket was only the combination of Omni + fugure eight.

The Straus-Paket was only used as mono spot microphone as long as there was no wide cardiod available. Later Volker Straus used the KM143.

It was never used by Volker Straus for main arrays like AB as it is described also by Eberhard Sengpiel.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Erfahru...trausPaket.pdf
Old 14th October 2017
  #16
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boojum's Avatar
OK, color me confused. You state that the Straus-Paket is mono + figure eight. I had always though it was mono + cardioid to create the effect of a wide cardioid when none existed. A check with Wikipedia agreed but Wikipedia is not always correct. So, what is the story? Erzahlen Sie mich.
Old 15th October 2017
  #17
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
OK, color me confused. You state that the Straus-Paket is omni + figure eight. I had always though it was omni + cardioid to create the effect of a wide cardioid when none existed. A check with Wikipedia agreed but Wikipedia is not always correct. So, what is the story? Erzahlen Sie mich.
FIFY Boojum
Old 15th October 2017
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
OK, color me confused. You state that the Straus-Paket is mono + figure eight. I had always though it was mono + cardioid to create the effect of a wide cardioid when none existed. A check with Wikipedia agreed but Wikipedia is not always correct. So, what is the story? Erzahlen Sie mich.

Indeed you are correct, it was a stop-gap measure before a wide-cardioid was marketed, and the dilemma was whether to run the 2 mics in series, which produced a single output of dubious response (or sensitivity) due to a change in recommended loading. A google translate of this page is instructive: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/DasStraus-Paket.pdf
Old 17th October 2017
  #19
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Adebar's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adebar View Post

I just wanted to say the Straus-Paket was only the combination of Omni + fugure eight.
That was a typo, sorry for confusion. Straus used omni plus cardiod (as I wrote in post #10 already)
as long as there was no wide cardiod on the market.

Back to topic Good Musician-Good Space-Good Mics.
I like the combination of omni (pressure) microphone with figure eight as well as some twin capsule approaches for their versatility.
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