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A mourning chant for the 4-way Phased Array Multi-Ef­fects Plugins
Old 27th July 2017
  #1
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A mourning chant for the 4-way Phased Array

I recorded a top high school choir -- state champions, in fact -- in a fairly dead auditorium and did not want to clutter the stage with mic stands. I set up a 4-way phased array on a single mic stand using Line Audio CM3's (41 cm) and flanking OM1's (67 cm), each pair at 90 degrees to each other, pretty much according to Faulkner's published basic specs. The choir used shells, and the array stood about 12 feet high on stage just behind the conductor.

Recorder and preamps were a Tascam HS-P82. I played with relative levels of each pair and found that parity gave the most pleasing balance (room vs. stereo image) and reach. Post included light noise reduction (RX), LF roll-off (< 100 Hz) to tame occasional rumbles, slight HF boost, and reverb, mostly to compensate for venue shortcomings.

This was my first recording using entirely Line Audio mics. I was fairly pleased for what I captured on a single stand. Curious to know what others think.
Attached Thumbnails
A mourning chant for the 4-way Phased Array-img_1547.jpg   A mourning chant for the 4-way Phased Array-img_1548.jpg  
Attached Files

Trauergesang.mp3 (3.97 MB, 2122 views)

Old 27th July 2017
  #2
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Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Nice! And nicely sung too.
Old 6th August 2017
  #3
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Blaine Misner's Avatar
 

sounds great!!
Old 9th September 2017
  #4
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lebonzaie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrReid View Post
I recorded a top high school choir -- state champions, in fact -- in a fairly dead auditorium and did not want to clutter the stage with mic stands. I set up a 4-way phased array on a single mic stand using Line Audio CM3's (41 cm) and flanking OM1's (67 cm), each pair at 90 degrees to each other, pretty much according to Faulkner's published basic specs. The choir used shells, and the array stood about 12 feet high on stage just behind the conductor.

Recorder and preamps were a Tascam HS-P82. I played with relative levels of each pair and found that parity gave the most pleasing balance (room vs. stereo image) and reach. Post included light noise reduction (RX), LF roll-off (< 100 Hz) to tame occasional rumbles, slight HF boost, and reverb, mostly to compensate for venue shortcomings.

This was my first recording using entirely Line Audio mics. I was fairly pleased for what I captured on a single stand. Curious to know what others think.
Wish i'll be able soon to record as nice as you. Just bought a second hand Tascam HS P82 for that purpose. Line audio mics are on my wish list.I can hear a kind of clip but remains a very cool sounding. Thanks for sharing your sample. Appreciate!
Old 10th September 2017
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lebonzaie View Post
Wish i'll be able soon to record as nice as you. Just bought a second hand Tascam HS P82 for that purpose. Line audio mics are on my wish list.I can hear a kind of clip but remains a very cool sounding. Thanks for sharing your sample. Appreciate!
Thanks for the comments. Over the years the HS P82 seems to have received the most attention from film sound recordists, perhaps the intended user, but it is a fine and bullet-proof recorder for remote recordings.

Perhaps something is lost in translation: I'm not sure what "clip" you hear, if your remark referred to my recording. Nothing clipped in my recording, and the limiters never engaged. Could you elaborate?
Old 10th September 2017
  #6
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I'm not sure how crucial the angles are since I've only used this array a couple times. But the graphic I have on file show the wide cards at 110 and the omnis at 90. Sounds good which is the best proof!
BTW, how do you like the HS-P82? Please PM me if you prefer not to comment on the board.
Attached Thumbnails
A mourning chant for the 4-way Phased Array-tonyfaulknerarray.jpg  
Old 10th September 2017
  #7
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Sounds coherent and precise
Good performance but boring venue
Rooms are important too
Repertoire,recording ,room and artiste is the dogma
Roger
Old 10th September 2017
  #8
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Yes i clearly hear something wrong (like clipping) at 1.44mn on the left side. I intend it's clear because of my headphones specs. I only listened on it. Or maybe due to MP3 conversion or post production work? HF boost in cause? You should listen that sample both Wave and Mp3 to ensure. Anything to deplore with Line audio mics series in this type of use? How was internal settings of tascam HS P82 for this concert? Setting levels, limiters? I'm a begginer and i need maximum of informations to avoid Biggest mistakes. Sorry for my English too.
Old 10th September 2017
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don S View Post
I'm not sure how crucial the angles are since I've only used this array a couple times. But the graphic I have on file show the wide cards at 110 and the omnis at 90. Sounds good which is the best proof!
BTW, how do you like the HS-P82? Please PM me if you prefer not to comment on the board.
I've attached the file I reference for both of Faulkner's publicized arrays; I obtained this from an online article in which he was interviewed on his techniques. The one does not indicate angles, but I took those from the transcription of the interview with Faulkner. My impression is that the given mic spacings and angles were good starting points.

The HS-P82, as I mentioned, is a very rugged piece of field gear. The menu systems are very intuitive. I've never had it fail on me. It also supports dual record to CF cards for confidence. The preamps are superb. To my ears, they're on par with (though perhaps slightly more musical) than Sound Devices', which I also own (SD-302). On the rare occasion that material engages the limiters, they're transparent. Whenever I need no more than 8 channels, the HS-P82 is my preferred recorder. It goes in a bag, but its size and weight are best suited for desktop use or for those who are in good physical shape.
Attached Thumbnails
A mourning chant for the 4-way Phased Array-faulkner-arrays.png  
Old 10th September 2017
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
Sounds coherent and precise
Good performance but boring venue
Rooms are important too
Repertoire,recording ,room and artiste is the dogma
Roger
Thank you. No argument whatsoever with you as to room choice, which was not mine at all: this was a poor acoustic venue, an all-purpose hall/auditorium.
Old 10th September 2017
  #11
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by lebonzaie View Post
Yes i clearly hear something wrong (like clipping) at 1.44mn on the left side. I intend it's clear because of my headphones specs. I only listened on it. Or maybe due to MP3 conversion or post production work? HF boost in cause? You should listen that sample both Wave and Mp3 to ensure. Anything to deplore with Line audio mics series in this type of use? How was internal settings of tascam HS P82 for this concert? Setting levels, limiters? I'm a begginer and i need maximum of informations to avoid Biggest mistakes. Sorry for my English too.
Even the MP3 on conversion peaked at -0.3 in my DAW. The original master WAV was the same. I've listened on headphones, too, and I don't discern a problem. However, now that you have me curious, I'll return to my original project to see if anything was amiss before I mastered.

I'll reply again with more thoughts...
Old 11th September 2017
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrReid View Post
Even the MP3 on conversion peaked at -0.3 in my DAW. The original master WAV was the same. I've listened on headphones, too, and I don't discern a problem. However, now that you have me curious, I'll return to my original project to see if anything was amiss before I mastered.

I'll reply again with more thoughts...
@lebonzaie, while I can't know what exactly you hear in my recording, and I don't even know what equipment you're using to listen, your remarks nonetheless prompted me to revisit my original project where I did detect very faint pops in the passage that you cited. I eliminated the HF boost and brought down the levels a few dB before dithering and exporting to an MP3, which I attach here as version 2. In this version, I can't detect any anomalies.

Turning to your questions, I see no reason to not use the Line Audio microphones for this type of recording. Plenty of other threads have extolled their characteristics, so I won't repeat them. Here, I was very curious to use mics all with very flat frequency responses, excepting the slight LF roll-off for the CM3s, in Faulkner's 4-way phased array.

With the HS-P82, I always record with limiters engaged for truly explosive (and unexpected peaks), but I set levels so that material peaks around -12. I think that's good practice no matter what device is used to record. With 8 channels armed, the HS-P82 can record at a maximum of 96/24, which is what I used for this recording.

Cheers.
Attached Files

Trauergesang v2.mp3 (3.97 MB, 1079 views)

Old 12th September 2017
  #13
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^Can't find the specific discussion in the CM3 thread at the moment, but I seem to recall reading that 110 is the favored position for CM3s in the long running CM3 thread here. edit: NOS often favored.

CM3s are very practical for this application. Nice sounding recording. Affordable mics. Not quite as much panic I once had when some kids ran into my mic stand with my Schoeps on them. Lesson learned-use CM3s for those situations.

Last edited by 2manyrocks; 12th September 2017 at 05:04 PM..
Old 12th September 2017
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
^Can't find the specific discussion in the CM3 thread at the moment, but I seem to recall reading that 110 is the favored position for CM3s in the long running CM3 thread here.

CM3s are very practical for this application. Nice sounding recording. Affordable mics. Not quite as much panic I once had when some kids ran into my mic stand with my Schoeps on them. Lesson learned-use CM3s for those situations.
Thank you. I've used the CM3's to excellent effect as a main pair in NOS configuration to account for their wide cardioid pattern. Even there, as in the array I used here, the angle was 90*.
Old 12th September 2017
  #15
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Thanks for mentioning NOS because I think that is often mentioned as a favorite position in the CM3 thread instead of 110 now that I look at the thread again more closely.

One unusual aspect of the performance is having a fairly dead auditorium instead of an overly live acoustic like so many other school auditoriums.
Old 12th September 2017
  #16
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
Thanks for mentioning NOS because I think that is often mentioned as a favorite position in the CM3 thread instead of 110 now that I look at the thread again more closely.

One unusual aspect of the performance is having a fairly dead auditorium instead of an overly live acoustic like so many other school auditoriums.
Agreed. It is an old and musty 'shoebox' with one level of balcony seating. The venue is fine for lectures, theatre, and other amplified material, but is deplorable for choral performances.
Old 14th September 2017
  #17
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I've been using the CM3s over the past year or so at 110 deg angles using the "WIDE ORTF" and "HYBRID-CM3 V2" mounts made by SRS Recording Services:
https://www.shapeways.com/marketplac...music/?tag=cm3

I am particularly fond of the "Hybrid" mount, which is 110 deg at 30 cm width. Plug the numbers into your favorite SRA calculation app and it you'll see that it images very close to true ORTF.
Old 14th September 2017
  #18
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^what is your shock mount and bar setup for your hybrid mount? Are you also using dpa 4061s further out on your bar these days?
Old 14th September 2017
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by voltronic View Post
I've been using the CM3s over the past year or so at 110 deg angles using the "WIDE ORTF" and "HYBRID-CM3 V2" mounts made by SRS Recording Services:
https://www.shapeways.com/marketplac...music/?tag=cm3

I am particularly fond of the "Hybrid" mount, which is 110 deg at 30 cm width. Plug the numbers into your favorite SRA calculation app and it you'll see that it images very close to true ORTF.
I like the compatability with rycote in the new design.
Old 15th September 2017
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
^what is your shock mount and bar setup for your hybrid mount? Are you also using dpa 4061s further out on your bar these days?
Rycote Duo-Lyre 68 on a A mourning chant for the 4-way Phased ArraySRS Recording Mounting Base. (For some reason, these bases only seem to appear on Scott's eBay store; not on Shapeways.

The CM3-HYBRID-V2 was a model Scott designed at my request, so I could have this arrangement in the Duo-Lyre and move the entire bar with both mics to easily adjust vertical tilt. He had these already for other mic brands, but was very quick to work up this version.

I haven't had occasion to use the 4061s in a quite a while; lately all I'm recording is marching bands and for that I'm using my old trusty Naiant X-Q omnis. I hope to have a solo organ recording gig coming up in several weeks though. If that works out, I definitely will use the 4061s. When I do use them, it's never wider than about 50cm and often much closer since they tend to be the main pickup needing a very wide SRA. If the organ recording happens, I might go up to 1m but I'll have to experiment not being familiar with the church or organ.
Old 15th September 2017
  #21
Gear Addict
Why not just get a Rycote INV 7 HG
MKlll? $1 dollar cheaper ($59 vs $60 and gives you the pivot joint plus built-in cable clip plus 5/8" female to 3/8" male adapter that are part of all Rycote lyre mounts. I use this mount for all my SRS stereo mounts (8040-ORTF and XY, MKH30 nose-to-nose Blumlein/MS).
Old 15th September 2017
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
Why not just get a Rycote INV 7 HG
MKlll? $1 dollar cheaper ($59 vs $60 and gives you the pivot joint plus built-in cable clip plus 5/8" female to 3/8" male adapter that are part of all Rycote lyre mounts. I use this mount for all my SRS stereo mounts (8040-ORTF and XY, MKH30 nose-to-nose Blumlein/MS).
At the time I purchased the Duo-Lyre, the INV-7 HG mkIII was more expensive (as were the other INV mounts), and I have no need for the pivot, clip, or adapter.

If I were purchasing today, yes the entire HG mkIII is the easier way to go.
Old 16th September 2017
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrReid View Post
I recorded a top high school choir -- state champions, in fact -- in a fairly dead auditorium
I listened the V2.
Very good recording !
But I don't hear a "dead auditorium". If you didn't add any reverb, the auditorium is quite good for this music.
I would have been happy to listen the OM1s alone. IS it possible ? Thanks
Old 18th September 2017
  #24
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm View Post
I listened the V2.
Very good recording !
But I don't hear a "dead auditorium". If you didn't add any reverb, the auditorium is quite good for this music.
I would have been happy to listen the OM1s alone. IS it possible ? Thanks
Thanks for the comments. I did, in fact, add reverb in post as I described above because the auditorium is acoustically quite dead.

Here I've posted separate mixes of the CM3 and OM1 pairs alone. I don't find any surprises in them. Soloing and mixing the tracks in my DAW simply reveals that the whole is more than just the sum of CM3's and OM1's, which whole was an intended benefit by use of such an array.
Attached Files

Trauergesang CM3 mix.mp3 (4.01 MB, 310 views)

Trauergesang OM1 mix.mp3 (4.01 MB, 316 views)

Old 18th September 2017
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrReid View Post
Here I've posted separate mixes of the CM3 and OM1 pairs alone. I don't find any surprises in them. Soloing and mixing the tracks in my DAW simply reveals that the whole is more than just the sum of CM3's and OM1's, which whole was an intended benefit by use of such an array.
Thanks DrReid !
But... for me the mix don't add great things, but mostly phase difficulties so less clarity and precision and less good stereo image.
The best for me is OM1 alone (with the great verb you added)
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