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Which would you use for the Mid mic in MS setup Condenser Microphones
Old 15th June 2017
  #31
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Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Hear, hear. Its even more puzzling that the symmetrical response of Senn is rated above the tiny asymmetry of Schoeps MK8 and then the Senn's are arranged with on axis shadowing. A completely inconsistent point of view.
The asymmetry of the Schoeps mk8 isn't really the problem, more the issue with its very rolled off bass response that you can clearly hear when using it as an side mic in an ms setup. This may not be a problem for the majority of Schoeps users as they have a huge presence in film and television and in speech applications this might well be a benefit. I've used many fig 8 mic's in ms setups and outside of dual diaphragm microphones (many of these work very well), the other single diaphram microphones are fewer in number. I've tried many of these (as have colleagues, some with particular reputations for ms work) and consistently the mkh30 is almost universally preferred. Another good option is the coles 4038 and with the caveat of its lowish output this is another surprisingly good option.
Old 15th June 2017
  #32
Gear Addict
The problem with this solution is that, if you are using the Rycote Connbox (as you should), the upper cable isn't long enough to reach the 8040 on its own once it's positioned properly. That's because the Connbox was designed very specifically for an MKH40/50/20. So you either have to extend that cable, or throw on the Neumann extension. The latter is simpler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
If you are going to use an MKH30 plus
MKH8020/8040/8050 for MS in a windshield you don't need the Neuman
extension. Just put the MKH30 in the lyre mount and use 1 or 2 Rycote Back-to-Back clips to attach the MKH8xxx to the MKH30.
Old 15th June 2017
  #33
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Bwanajim-good point!
Old 28th June 2017
  #34
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by tapes View Post
i'm having a hard time envisioning how this works, is it decoded differently? seems like a quad or ambisonic solution rather than stereo? I'm not immediately finding sound examples, there's a thread on here but the track isn't on soundcloud anymore.
It's decoded n exactly the same way.

It's two mics, not four, so it's stereo.

Read the Dooley and Streicher MS paper - it has diagrams and will help you understand.
Old 28th June 2017
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland View Post
The asymmetry of the Schoeps mk8 isn't really the problem, more the issue with its very rolled off bass response that you can clearly hear when using it as an side mic in an ms setup.
The bass response of an ms array is determined by the combination of mid and side mics.
Old 28th June 2017
  #36
Gear Addict
3D printed MKH30 vertical mount MS/Blumlein

Good news and with Scott's desire to get thing's just right we worked through 2 preliminary versions and 3rd time was a charm. There is now a 3D-printed vertical (i.e. nose-to-nose) mount for the MKH30 for MS (and Blumlein) from Shapeways, http://shpws.me/OBoz
For shockmounting I highly recommend
the Rycote INV7-HG MKIII lyre mount,
Rycote

Other shockmounts including the standard MKH30 shockmounts aren't
stiff enough to handle the weight and torque of 2 mics.

Below is a picture of 2 MKH30 mics in
the 3D mount held by the recommended
Rycote mount. Sorry for the rotated image.

If you need a mount for something
not already in the catalog you
can contact Scott from the linked
page. https://www.shapeways.com/shops/srsrecordingservices

Again Scott was highly responsive and great to work with (and just found out from his
recording business site that he is a classical
recording engineer).
Attached Thumbnails
Which would you use for the Mid mic in MS setup-img_4035.jpg  

Last edited by Folkie; 28th June 2017 at 07:31 PM.. Reason: additional info
Old 28th June 2017
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
Good news and with Scott's desire to get thing's just right we worked through 2 preliminary versions and 3rd time was a charm.
Could you not exploit the flat sides of the MKH and make a mount that accepts the flat sides at the correct 90 deg for quick and aligned setup. One of the most compelling things about the standard Senn mounts is their flat sides and certain alignment.
Old 29th June 2017
  #38
Gear Addict
 

I do Blumlein XY not MS and always found it a pain to align mics at a 45 degree angle in a vertical plane so I use the MKH30's horizontally, one above the other with a 1" spacer on a Superlux MA90 bar. It has 15, 30 and 45 degree settings on the mic mounts so it's very easy to set up and I can use the MKH standard mounts. The capsules are very close together and the whole setup is very compact and visually unobtrusive. By the way to me these are the best mic mounts that I've ever used, they don't mess up the mic finish either, great.
Old 29th June 2017
  #39
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Could you not exploit the flat sides of the MKH and make a mount that accepts the flat sides at the correct 90 deg for quick and aligned setup. One of the most compelling things about the standard Senn mounts is their flat sides and certain alignment.
That's an excellent suggestion!
I have reached out to Scott to create a revised version that allows for quick/aligned setup.
Old 29th June 2017
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
That's an excellent suggestion!
I have reached out to Scott to create a revised version that allows for quick/aligned setup.
It also has the distinct advantage of moving the arms away from shadowing the capsules. Nuff said.
Old 29th June 2017
  #41
Gear Addict
Scott will make a revised one as requested though he won't be able
to get to it for a few days.
The revised version will grip the flat section of the mics to make the 90deg
mic angle automatic and the mount will
have arms holding the mics so they are aimed 45 deg left and 45 deg right for Blumlein. For MS you can just rotate
the mount shaft (or mic stand) 45 deg to the left.
With this design you can always do recording with musicians facing each other in front AND behind and the mount
shaft/arms and mic stand are never directly on axis with either + or - lobes of the mics (rather the mount shaft and stand are always 45deg off-axis which gives the least shadowing).

Last edited by Folkie; 29th June 2017 at 08:48 PM.. Reason: additional info
Old 29th June 2017
  #42
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Yes, pretty obviously the arms need to come in aligned with the nulls and be as small (lowest cross section toward the sound) and aerodynamic as possible.

Last edited by David Spearritt; 29th June 2017 at 11:17 PM..
Old 30th June 2017
  #43
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
Scott will make a revised one as requested though he won't be able
to get to it for a few days.
The revised version will grip the flat section of the mics to make the 90deg
mic angle automatic and the mount will
have arms holding the mics so they are aimed 45 deg left and 45 deg right for Blumlein. For MS you can just rotate
the mount shaft (or mic stand) 45 deg to the left.
With this design you can always do recording with musicians facing each other in front AND behind and the mount
shaft/arms and mic stand are never directly on axis with either + or - lobes of the mics (rather the mount shaft and stand are always 45deg off-axis which gives the least shadowing).
This is interesting. I asked if he could make mounts for the Samar VL373A and he shined me on to some outside contractor. Was it my breath?
Old 30th June 2017
  #44
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
This is interesting. I asked if he could make mounts for the Samar VL373A and he shined me on to some outside contractor. Was it my breath?
Isn't this a stereo mic? Why not use
the mic clip that presumably comes with
the mic or get a Rycote lyre mount?
Scott's niche seems to be creating mic
mounts for 2 or more mics to make it
easier to do eg ORTF, XY, NOS. etc.
So no I wouldn't take it personally.
Old 30th June 2017
  #45
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
Isn't this a stereo mic? Why not use
the mic clip that presumably comes with
the mic or get a Rycote lyre mount?
Scott's niche seems to be creating mic
mounts for 2 or more mics to make it
easier to do eg ORTF, XY, NOS. etc.
So no I wouldn't take it personally.
The clip that comes with it cannot restrain it well from ~75 degrees from horizontal. The weight is just too much, ~440 grams and the length of the mic. Rycote does not make them and does not think they will be making them soon. The USM Rycote mic holders do not have the muscle and forget the lyre for the same reason. The diameter is a problem, too. The measurements are "10.350 x 1.250." It would make a swell billy club. But I just love it as a mic.
Old 30th June 2017
  #46
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Earcatcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
The clip that comes with it cannot restrain it well from ~75 degrees from horizontal. The weight is just too much, ~440 grams and the length of the mic. Rycote does not make them and does not think they will be making them soon. The USM Rycote mic holders do not have the muscle and forget the lyre for the same reason. The diameter is a problem, too. The measurements are "10.350 x 1.250." It would make a swell billy club. But I just love it as a mic.
But why don't you clamp the Samar by its top into a Rycote USM (black version)? The weight should absolutely be no problem for a USM, as I have much heavier mics in it. It's obviously the length of the mic that causes a leverage problem, but that can be taken care of by holding it at its top end. The screws will definitely not slip as they can be well tightened. Did you try this?
Old 30th June 2017
  #47
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earcatcher View Post
The screws will definitely not slip as they can be well tightened. Did you try this?
Actually the Rycote USM screws only need to be lightly tightened - they will hold a heavy mic. securely with only a light touch - they don't need to be tightened so hard that you could damage the mic.
Old 30th June 2017
  #48
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earcatcher View Post
But why don't you clamp the Samar by its top into a Rycote USM (black version)? The weight should absolutely be no problem for a USM, as I have much heavier mics in it. It's obviously the length of the mic that causes a leverage problem, but that can be taken care of by holding it at its top end. The screws will definitely not slip as they can be well tightened. Did you try this?
I am assuming that you mean for the mic to be hung from the USM. That is a clever solution. You are pretty smart for a furriner. I just tried it and it may be the solution.

Thanks
Old 1st July 2017
  #49
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Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
The bass response of an ms array is determined by the combination of mid and side mics.
Give or take any phase shift between the different mic's.

The point still is that the mk8 rolls off from 200hz. 6db, half level at 50 hz and about 12db at 20 hz. Having used it I can attest to the fact that it indeed audible, and this was paired with a flat response mk2.
Old 1st July 2017
  #50
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The ideal bass response for a given recording varies according to the frequency range of the instruments, musical composition and background noise.
Old 1st July 2017
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
The ideal bass response for a given recording varies according to the frequency range of the instruments, musical composition and background noise.
What's wrong with the old hi-fi mantra of 20-20,000 Hz (even if it was an ideal that few components ever attained, within +/- xdB constraints) ?
Old 1st July 2017
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
The ideal bass response for a given recording varies according to the frequency range of the instruments, musical composition and background noise.
What's wrong with the old hi-fi mantra of 20-20,000 Hz (even if it was an ideal that few components ever attained, within +/- xdB constraints) ?
Recording according to memorized mantras is a blissful experience, in particular when recording the loud vibrations of the sixteen names and thirty-two syllables of the Hare Krishna mantra.
Old 1st July 2017
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
Recording according to memorized mantras is a blissful experience, in particular when recording the loud vibrations of the sixteen names and thirty-two syllables of the Hare Krishna mantra.
And the ideal bass response for the Hare Krishna mantra would be determined by....?
Old 2nd July 2017
  #54
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Roland's Avatar
Of course all sources vary and room acoustics can have an impact. The thing that allows our brains to make these judgements are the other frequencies which mean we can have a frame of reference. It's for exactly this reason when listening to things we can almost imediately decide if something has too much or too little bass/treble, whatever. In my situation I was aware that there was a lack of bass and on mentioning this to a colleague, he told me that was why.
Old 2nd July 2017
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland View Post
when listening to things we can almost imediately decide if something has too much or too little bass/treble
I often end up rolling off bass from spaced omni recordings during the mastering process, because the lowest frequencies will be picking up primarily noise from the environment.

In MS recordings I tend to prefer the trade off of less deep bass for clearer imaging, but with low mids emphasized slightly.

In your recording with the Schoeps MS pair, how do you feel about adjusting it with EQ to get the bass response you need for the recording?
Old 2nd July 2017
  #56
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Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
I often end up rolling off bass from spaced omni recordings during the mastering process, because the lowest frequencies will be picking up primarily noise from the environment.

In MS recordings I tend to prefer the trade off of less deep bass for clearer imaging, but with low mids emphasized slightly.

In your recording with the Schoeps MS pair, how do you feel about adjusting it with EQ to get the bass response you need for the recording?
I have no problem with using eq where appropriate and in the given situation some significant correction was needed, the other engineer involved was Mike Skeet.

I generally look for flat response and only apply bass filtering to subsonic frequencies. Ultimately it depends on satisfying your clients requirements, I've received good press for stuff I worked on so I take it that others think I'm getting it about right.
Old 6th August 2017
  #57
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
I just got a pair of MKH30's and am awaiting a revised version of a 3D printed vertical mount for MS/Blumlein. Scott from SRS is incredibly helpful and responsive!
(I already have and love his 3D printed MKH8040 ORTF and XY mounts-used with a Rycote INV7 lyre shockmount
https://www.shapeways.com/product/26...&utm_content=2

Will let you know my thoughts on the revised version (plus a picture) as soon as I get it. For the MKH30 MS/Blumlein
vertical mount I will be using a Rycote
INV 7HG-MKIII lyre shockmount (the standard Sennheiser MKH30 shockmount is not stiff enough to hold the weight of 2 mics in the 3D printed mount.
Rycote

For MS with MKH30 plus lMKH8020/8040/8050 Mid you can use
Rycote "Back-to-Back clips" to piggyback the mics
http://http://mymic.rycote.com/products/back-to-back-clips/
and the Rycote INV7 or INV 7HG MKIII
lyre shockmount.
The final version of the Shapeways 3-D
printed vertical Blumlein/MS Blumlein
mic mount for MKH30 is now available
at: https://www.shapeways.com/product/26...li=marketplace

This latest version holds the mics fixed at a 90deg angle. As mentioned in my previous post, the standard Sennheiser shockmount is not usable due to the
elastics not being stiff enough to hold the
weight of 2 mics plus mount. I highly recommend the Rycote INV 7HG MKlll
lyre shockmount instead.
Bill
PS thanks to Scott at Shapeways for making
revisions to get things right.

Last edited by Folkie; 6th August 2017 at 02:49 PM.. Reason: corrected URL
Old 6th August 2017
  #58
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Old 6th August 2017
  #59
Gear Addict
Yes, now corrected in my post.
Thanks studer 58.
Old 6th August 2017
  #60
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Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
The bass response of an ms array is determined by the combination of mid and side mics.
So you still have an audible roll off. This isn't a theoretical assessment by me, but rather a real world experience I had backed up by looking at the Schoeps spec to see why. Do it if you will, however, I don't recommend it as a good option. YMMV
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