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Dante to AVB bridge Audio Interfaces
Old 27th August 2018
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
Is anyone with a reputation (not Biamp) except for, maybe, Motu embracing AVB?
It seems it's getting one last hurrah with Milan – Milan | A User-Driven Network Protocol for Professional Media
Old 27th August 2018
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
Just my opinion of course but it certainly seems that AVB is not a format that I would consider unless I was already heavily invested in AVB hardware. Seems pretty dead in the water from what I've seen.

Is anyone with a reputation (not Biamp) except for, maybe, Motu embracing AVB?

D.
Meyer, DB, LAcoustics, PreSonus, Harman, Cisco, Control4, Extreme Networks, Honda, BMW, etc. Word is, there are more companies thinking of migrating to AVB, because of the network traffic and security issues of Dante. There is an interest in creating interoperable products with external bridges, again, to reduce the amount of royalties paid to Audinate, and decrease the cost to the consumer.

Biamp is reason enough. They own the DSP and networked AV market at the moment. QSYS is catching up.
Old 27th August 2018
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhandy View Post
Meyer, DB, LAcoustics, PreSonus, Harman, Cisco, Control4, Extreme Networks, Honda, BMW, etc. Word is, there are more companies thinking of migrating to AVB, because of the network traffic and security issues of Dante. There is an interest in creating interoperable products with external bridges, again, to reduce the amount of royalties paid to Audinate, and decrease the cost to the consumer.
What are the network traffic and security issues of Dante? You can kind of argue that AVB is ”secure” because it operates at Layer 2 and thus can't be routed but, Dante is not discoverable outside a single broadcast domain anyway (unless you're using Domain Manager). In any case if you're concerned about security you probably know enough to run your audio infrastructure on its own VLAN.

The royalty argument makes a lot more sense, and that was always going to be an issue with a single-vendor implementation: convenience vs monopoly choke-point. Time will tell what happens. My money is on Audinate moving up the stack and AES67 commoditising the infrastructure.
Old 27th August 2018
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhandy View Post
Meyer, DB, LAcoustics, PreSonus, Harman, Cisco, Control4, Extreme Networks, Honda, BMW, etc.
Yeah, okay. Must say, however, that I don't have a single one of these manufacturers' products in my rig. Maybe live sound. Maybe. But nothing in your list screams high-end recording. Dead as a door nail.

D.
Old 28th August 2018
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
Yeah, okay. Must say, however, that I don't have a single one of these manufacturers' products in my rig. Maybe live sound. Maybe. But nothing in your list screams high-end recording. Dead as a door nail.

D.
No reason for it in recording IMO. You can do everything you need to do with Dante or analog. In broadcasting, Revenna has the market share. Besides, the recording market is dead and minuscule compared to corporate board rooms, huddle spaces, houses of worship, mass evacuation, education, manufacturing, automotive AV, etc.
Old 28th August 2018
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
Is anyone with a reputation (not Biamp) except for, maybe, Motu embracing AVB?
Apple and MotU seem like the most obvious examples.
Old 28th August 2018
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhandy View Post
No reason for it in recording IMO. You can do everything you need to do with Dante or analog. In broadcasting, Revenna has the market share. Besides, the recording market is dead and minuscule compared to corporate board rooms, huddle spaces, houses of worship, mass evacuation, education, manufacturing, automotive AV, etc.
I would've thought those places are even better suited to a Layer 3 protocol such as Dante or Ravenna, where the possibility to route across subnets is useful, and the guaranteed bandwidth reservation/potentially tighter synchronisation afforded by AVB is less critical.
Old 28th August 2018
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhandy View Post
No reason for it in recording IMO. You can do everything you need to do with Dante or analog. In broadcasting, Revenna has the market share. Besides, the recording market is dead and minuscule compared to corporate board rooms, huddle spaces, houses of worship, mass evacuation, education, manufacturing, automotive AV, etc.
Very true. I wonder though if eventually, Dante will allow so much connectivity that it will become, sort of, the base to which all others talk via AES67?

And Ms. Gaia; why do you mention Apple? I don't believe I have seen them embrace any particular AoIP even as I use a MBP as my master controller for my Dante rig.

I have, alas, been persuaded to adopt a stray PC to run some of the controllers that don't (yet) play nice with OSX. It was one of the most inexpensive pieces of gear in the system; I bought it a pawn shop and it runs these controllers and my CCTV camera software quite nicely. Never thought I would say that. It is running on an entirely separate network than the Dante and I hope some day that I can wrangle it all back to one network on one Cat5e. Time will tell.

D.
Old 28th August 2018
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
And Ms. Gaia; why do you mention Apple? I don't believe I have seen them embrace any particular AoIP even as I use a MBP as my master controller for my Dante rig.
Apple certainly hasn't done anything to block other transports, and I'm sure they're effectively agnostic from an adopter's standpoint, but AVB requires specific support at lower layers of the protocol stack than Dante – and Apple has gone the extra mile to do the work and provide explicit support in macOS and all of their hardware since about 2011.

There are even system apps that have features specific to AVB. Open Audio MIDI Setup and you'll see a Network Device Browser under the Window menu. This is explicitly for discovering and managing AVB audio streams. There is not, to my knowledge, anything comparable built in for Dante. Nor does there have to be, which is one of Dante's selling points, though that comes at the expense of predictable transport latency.

Apple has been pretty forward-thinking about using Ethernet as a transport for musical applications. Witness their efforts with RTP-MIDI back as far as OS X 10.4 in 2005.
Old 2nd October 2018
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukehatpadl View Post
I would've thought those places are even better suited to a Layer 3 protocol such as Dante or Ravenna, where the possibility to route across subnets is useful, and the guaranteed bandwidth reservation/potentially tighter synchronisation afforded by AVB is less critical.
Just think about the users. How many large studios or facilities are there for companies to develop and implement? The number of large facilities needing to have access multiple rooms and systems is very, very small. With only a handful of large facilities still in existence on the planet, it doesn't make sense. Personal/artist studios can get everything they need with the PreSonus eco system. I doubt we see anyone else competing with it anytime soon.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #41
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RME

RME: Digiface AVB

M-32 Pro | High-end AD or DA Converter - rme-usa.com




Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
Just my opinion of course but it certainly seems that AVB is not a format that I would consider unless I was already heavily invested in AVB hardware. Seems pretty dead in the water from what I've seen.

Is anyone with a reputation (not Biamp) except for, maybe, Motu embracing AVB?

D.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #42
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tourtelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhandy View Post
No reason for it in recording IMO. You can do everything you need to do with Dante or analog. In broadcasting, Revenna has the market share. Besides, the recording market is dead and minuscule compared to corporate board rooms, huddle spaces, houses of worship, mass evacuation, education, manufacturing, automotive AV, etc.
That is a nice box, the RME. And as bhandy pointed out, I am not aware of much concerning any other network uses EXCEPT audio recording so there could be a whole lot of AVB stuff going on in the world. Just like reminding folks that most of the worlds gas pumps run Windows. Who woulda guessed?

I am also highly invested in Dante, so it is my natural way to not look too closely at boxes, or systems that won't fit in my plan. I am hopeful and looking into getting Ravenna devices on my network via AES 67 (maybe, someday) because I like the Merging stuff, would like to try out Pyramix, mostly to become "cross-platform" enabled with the "big boy" audio engineers here in town (Seattle Symphony's Dimitry Lipay for one) who are well versed and use Pyramix most every day. Maybe, someday, there will be no need to be protocol specific with network add-ons and we can really pick the boxes that we like and they will fit right in.

D.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
Apple certainly hasn't done anything to block other transports, and I'm sure they're effectively agnostic from an adopter's standpoint, but AVB requires specific support at lower layers of the protocol stack than Dante – and Apple has gone the extra mile to do the work and provide explicit support in macOS and all of their hardware since about 2011.

There are even system apps that have features specific to AVB. Open Audio MIDI Setup and you'll see a Network Device Browser under the Window menu. This is explicitly for discovering and managing AVB audio streams. There is not, to my knowledge, anything comparable built in for Dante. Nor does there have to be, which is one of Dante's selling points, though that comes at the expense of predictable transport latency.

Apple has been pretty forward-thinking about using Ethernet as a transport for musical applications. Witness their efforts with RTP-MIDI back as far as OS X 10.4 in 2005.
Yes, Apple supports AVB. But let me advise potential users that the AVB implementation is crippled in High Sierra. High Sierra limits the AVB input stream to 48kHz. Other soft such as Sierra, does not limit it to lower sample rates.

I have been advised by AVB makers that they are waiting for Apple to supply a fix for this limitation.

Since AVB works best with a switch, I am wondering if using my AVB preamplifier (Sonosax) with the RME AVB box, will better interface my preamp with my Apple computer??
Old 2 weeks ago
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post


Since AVB works best with a switch, I am wondering if using my AVB preamplifier (Sonosax) with the RME AVB box, will better interface my preamp with my Apple computer??
If I am not mistaken, AVB works only with a special switch; I know that MOTU makes one, maybe others?

D.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
If I am not mistaken, AVB works only with a special switch; I know that MOTU makes one, maybe others?
AVB traffic can only be routed across switches that support the standard (which is part of the broader the Time Sensitive Networking standards, so you’ll see AVB support branded as TSN.) So yes, to connect two devices interchanging AVB audio you need to make the path between them uses supported switches. There are quite a few with many aimed at much larger installations. As TSN becomes more widely used we’ll doubtless see prices come down.

That said, non-AVB traffic from the same device routes fine over any switch. So at home I have my 828es connected to a MotU switch for local connections, and that bridges to a bog standard switch and my Wi-Fi network. Firmware updates over Ethernet and Wi-Fi control from an iPad work seamlessly and coexist with the guaranteed fixed latency audio that’s restricted to my studio space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Yes, Apple supports AVB. But let me advise potential users that the AVB implementation is crippled in High Sierra. High Sierra limits the AVB input stream to 48kHz. Other soft such as Sierra, does not limit it to lower sample rates.
Curious. MotU’s support site specifically mentions a variety of sample rates in the context of a direct Ethernet connection to macOS hosts. My normal configuration is connected over Thunderbolt with AVB in the wings for expansion, so I’ll have to try it out with Mojave and see where that stands.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #46
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I believe that the new RME AVB boxes act as the switch for interfacing to the computer. When I can get my hands on one of these new interfaces I'll test it out.

I can interface my Sonosax SX-AD8+ with AVB output directly into a Mac laptop with the appropriate USB C adaptors--without any sort of switch.

These adaptors let the laptop see the equipment as having an ethernet connection to the computer instead of a USB connection.

But High Sierra limits me to 48KHz. I don't record at 48, I record at 192.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #47
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
AVB traffic can only be routed across switches that support the standard (which is part of the broader the Time Sensitive Networking standards, so you’ll see AVB support branded as TSN.) So yes, to connect two devices interchanging AVB audio you need to make the path between them uses supported switches. There are quite a few with many aimed at much larger installations. As TSN becomes more widely used we’ll doubtless see prices comes down.

That said, non-AVB traffic from the same devices routes fine over any switch. So at home I have my 828es connected to a MotU switch for local connections, and that bridges to a bog standard switch and my Wi-Fi network. Firmware updates over Ethernet and Wi-Fi control from an iPad work seamlessly and coexist with the guaranteed fixed latency audio that’s restricted to my studio space.



Curious. MotU’s support site specifically mentions a variety of sample rates in the context of a direct Ethernet connection to macOS hosts. My normal configuration is connected over Thunderbolt with AVB in the wings for expansion, so I’ll have to try it out with Mojave and see where that stands.
List of AVB-capable Ethernet switches - Biamp Systems
Old 2 weeks ago
  #48
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Gaia View Post
AVB traffic can only be routed across switches that support the standard (which is part of the broader the Time Sensitive Networking standards, so you’ll see AVB support branded as TSN.) So yes, to connect two devices interchanging AVB audio you need to make the path between them uses supported switches. There are quite a few with many aimed at much larger installations. As TSN becomes more widely used we’ll doubtless see prices comes down.

That said, non-AVB traffic from the same devices routes fine over any switch. So at home I have my 828es connected to a MotU switch for local connections, and that bridges to a bog standard switch and my Wi-Fi network. Firmware updates over Ethernet and Wi-Fi control from an iPad work seamlessly and coexist with the guaranteed fixed latency audio that’s restricted to my studio space.



Curious. MotU’s support site specifically mentions a variety of sample rates in the context of a direct Ethernet connection to macOS hosts. My normal configuration is connected over Thunderbolt with AVB in the wings for expansion, so I’ll have to try it out with Mojave and see where that stands.
List of AVB-capable Ethernet switches - Biamp Systems
Old 2 weeks ago
  #49
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I believe that the new RME AVB boxes act as the switch for interfacing to the computer. When I can get my hands on one of these new interfaces I'll test it out.
No need to test—a device with one single RJ45 cannot act as a switch. Sure you can still use it as an AVB-USB bridge.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #50
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Plush's Avatar
Yes--I see your point. Thank you
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