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The Big Shoot Out at the Audio Chorale Condenser Microphones
Old 25th October 2002
  #31
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Well, Dave and I finally completed our evaluation yesterday, just before our compressor (part II) shoot out.

I'll be compiling all our notes and will post a response over the weekend. I trust all the participants will do a follow up of the findings.

I'm looking forward to what everyone has to say about our report...

Thanks for being so patient!

I'll keep you posted.
Old 30th October 2002
  #32
Gear Nut
 

Anybody else noticed the read counter incrementing on this one?

(hint, hint...)
Old 30th October 2002
  #33
Lives for gear
 
C.Lambrechts's Avatar
 

yup ....
Old 30th October 2002
  #34
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Looking forward to reading the results (hint!)

Old 2nd November 2002
  #35
Lives for gear
 
Steve Smith's Avatar
 

'?
Old 4th November 2002
  #36
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Did somebody say, Shoot out?

Well, I finally found some time to write and post our mic pre findings. So, here it goes...

First of all, I want to thank Dave Barckow, Jay Kahrs, Larry Hammel, Denny McNerney, Jay Crouch, Sam Spennacchio and Jon D'Uva for coming by the Shoot Out. Their participation was very helpful.

As Jay mentioned in the original post, I set up one of my passive splitters that fed each mic pre via transformers. When applicable, the mics were powered by the truck's console, which was the only mic pre that did not get the transformer output. I used pink noise to set the levels on each mic pre so they were even. Then we had Dave sing and play his guitar while Jon was switching sets of pres, making sure the levels were matched.

Each mic (GTR & vocal) went through eight mic pre's, then straight to two DA98HR's at 24bit 48khz. One DA98HR had all the GTR pre's and the other had all the vocal pre's. Once we recorded all the various mic combinations, we listened to the playback and picked out what we liked best. The shoot out was more about testing under real world conditions then a scientific approach.

We tested and evaluated 7 of the 8 sets of mic pre's.
The mic pre's used for the "Shoot Out" were as follows:

2 x Audio Toys, Pro6's
2 x Geoff Daking 52270's
2 x True Systems Precision8's
2 x API 3124's
2 x Siemens/Telefunken V276
2 x Shep SN8's
2 x OSA's
2 x channels of the Otari Status (used as our phantom power source)

We also ran a few passes with the GT VIPRE on vocals only, replacing the status pre's for Larry's personal evaluation.

We tested and evaluated various mic combo's.
The mic's used for the "Shoot Out" were as follows:

BEYER M260 modified by Stephen Sank with the ribbon element of an RCA 77DX, BLUE KIWI, BLUE BABY BOTTLE, C414BULS, KM140, KMS105, M149, VIP50, Royer R-121, Schoeps 4V and a TLM170. Did I forget anything???

The mic pre's were not picked for any specific criteria. We're talking about grabbing the gear available to us and testing them. I asked the guys to bring any mic or pre they wanted to try out against the ones I had available in my inventory. Like we said before, more real world then scientific. Since we were listening for the quality of the sound between the mic pre's, additional functions like EQ, filter's, etc., were bypassed. We just listened to the mic preamp section.

When we went into this session, we were looking for the best sounding mic pre, but found out a more important aspect to the mic and mic pre combination! It's all about the (primary color) instrument, then the (secondary color) microphone. Picking the right microphone for the performer is a much more important choice then which mic pre you used! Don't get me wrong, mic pre's matter, but the combo between performer and mic matters more. Strangely enough, the mic pre didn't make or break the mic.
Each pre added it's own color to the sound.

For Dave and I, all seven outboard mic pre's sounded good. They each had subtle differences. Some sounded phat or darker, others sounded more open, but they all had a quality sound to them. When Dave and took the test, we both agreed and picked out the same pre's (except for one time). The other guys seem to have a much different opinion about the differences between them. There weren't major disagreements. It was more like clusters of agreements....

First Shoot Out: KM140 on AGTR, KMS105 on Vocal:

JC picked his V276 for AGTR and a split between the DAKING & the V276 for vocal.

JK picked the DAKING for AGTR and the OSA for vocal.

DM had a split between the ATI & the DAKING and the V276 for vocal.

JD picked the DAKING on AGTR and the V276 for vocal.

LH had a splitt between the DAKING (& the STATUS console which really wasn't part of the test) for AGTR and the V276 for vocal.

SR picked the V276 for AGTR and the DAKING for vocal.

DB picked the V276 for AGTR and the DAKING for vocal.

Seven picks for the V276.
Seven picks for the DAKING.
One pick for the ATI.
One pick for the OSA.
One pick for the STATUS (which was not in the running).

Second Shoot Out: BABY BOTTLE on AGTR, KIWI on Vocal:

JC picked his V276 for AGTR and the DAKING for vocal.

JK picked the API for AGTR and the OSA for vocal.

DM picked the DAKING and the OSA for vocal.

JD picked the API on AGTR and the OSA for vocal.

LH picked the DAKING for AGTR and the OSA for vocal.

SR picked the API for AGTR and the DAKING for vocal.

DB picked the API for AGTR and the DAKING for vocal.

One pick for the V276.
Five picks for the DAKING.
Four picks for the API.
Four picks for the OSA.


Third Shoot Out: R121 on AGTR, R121 on Vocal:

JC picked the V276 for AGTR and the SHEP for vocal.

JK picked the V276 for AGTR and the V276 for vocal.

DM picked the DAKING for AGTR and the V276 for vocal.

JD picked the V276 on AGTR and the V276 for vocal.

LH picked the DAKING for AGTR and the DAKING for vocal.

SR picked the API for AGTR and the SHEP for vocal.

DB picked the API for AGTR and the SHEP for vocal.

Six picks for the V276.
Three picks for the DAKING.
Two picks for the API.
Three picks for the SHEP.

Fourth Shoot Out: SCHOEPS 4V on AGTR & Vocal:

JC picked the ATI for AGTR and the V276 for vocal.

JK picked the SHEP for AGTR and the P8 for vocal.

DM picked the ATI for AGTR and the P8 for vocal.

JD picked the ATI on AGTR and the P8 for vocal.

LH picked the ATI for AGTR and the V276 for vocal.

SR picked the ATI for AGTR and the P8 for vocal.

DB picked the ATI for AGTR and the P8 for vocal.

Six picks for the ATI.
Two picks for the V276.
Three picks for the SHEP.
Five picks for the P8.

Fifth Shoot Out: TLM170 on AGTR and C414BULS on Vocal:

JC picked the ATI for AGTR and the OSA for vocal.

JK picked the ATI for AGTR and the ATI for vocal.

DM picked the DAKING for AGTR and the DAKING for vocal.

JD picked the DAKING on AGTR and the OSA for vocal.

LH picked the DAKING on AGTR and the DAKING for vocal.

SR picked the P8 for AGTR and the ATI for vocal.

DB picked the P8 for AGTR and the ATI for vocal.

Five picks for the ATI.
Two picks for the OSA.
Five picks for the DAKING.
Two picks for the P8.

Sixth Shoot Out: M149 on AGTR & Vocal:

JC picked the SHEP for AGTR and the V276 for vocal.

JK had a split between API & OSA for AGTR and the V276 for vocal.

DM picked the DAKING for AGTR and the V276 for vocal.

JD picked the DAKING on AGTR and the API for vocal.

LH picked the DAKING on AGTR and the V276 for vocal.

SR picked the DAKING for AGTR and the API for vocal.

DB picked the ATI for AGTR and the API for vocal.

One pick for the SHEP.
Four picks for the V276.
Four picks for the API.
One pick for the OSA.
Four picks for the DAKING.

I left out the remaining mics because of various reasons.

I will not be adding our comments to this post. I hoping we can develop a conversation about these findings first...
Old 4th November 2002
  #37
Well at a glance Daking seems to have come out of that survey very well!
Old 4th November 2002
  #38
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Looking at your results, I want to check out the V276, the API and the Daking pres...
Old 4th November 2002
  #39
Lives for gear
 
Knox's Avatar
 

Interesting results . . . . . especially the daking.
I am happy to read some hardware posts . . . this place has turned into software city recently! Thanks for going to the trouble to give us your input.
Old 5th November 2002
  #40
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
So, with 6 tests (AGTR & vocal) using 12 different mics in various combinations, into seven outboard mic pre's here is the final "most picked"count.


Audio Toys Inc., Pro6..................1+6+5= 12
Geoff Daking 52270....................7+5+3+5+4= 24
True Systems Precision8.............5+2= 7
API 3124.....................................4+2+4= 10
Siemens/Telefunken V276...........7+1+6+2+4= 20
Shep SN8.....................................3+3+1= 7
OSA..............................................1+4+2+1= 8

On the more colored side of things, I liked what the ATI did to the sound of the mic. It always had the fattest bottom end. With a little EQ, it's an awesome pre to own.

All around, the DAKING pre's sounded better most of the time. It had the bottom of the ATI's with a nice top end to match. Perhaps, Geoff Daking should consider building racks of stand alone mic pre's!!! If the price is right, I would by 48 of them. Those XFMR's sound really nice on most things.

IMHO, when it came to a more transparent, open sound, the P8's sounded best with the 4V and the TLM170. I wouldn't think twice on using them for classical recordings and such.

Dave and I both felt any one of these pre's would have worked well. They all sound very nice. I cannot speak for the other guys, but for Dave and I, we were picking between subtle differences. Many times, other pre's would sound damn good, but when A/B'd against our "final" choice, that pre had that little bit of "something" extra, that made us pick it over the second best.
Old 8th November 2002
  #41
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Being a Daking dealer... needless to say I'm pleased by your results... however, I'm curious how you went about insuring that all of the pre's were at exactly the same level.

Volume can come heavily into play when it comes to tests like these...
Old 9th November 2002
  #42
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Prior to the shoot out, JC and I setup the system. Once we set everything up, we blasted pink noise into the 2 mics that fed the 16 mic pre's. I adjusted all the mic pre's myself. Looking at the DA98HR's meters, I made sure all the levels were exactly the same. I also looked at the console return meters and made sure everything was everything.

During the actual shoot out the following day, Jon D'Uva and the rest of the guys handled the tracking and playback for the shoot out, so I cannot speak for them.
Perhaps they can bring some light to this matter. Dave and I were not part of the first listening session.

Before Dave Barckow and I took a listen, I made sure to align every return perfectly. I paned the first pre hard left and the second pre hard right, adjusting the playback looking at the stereo buss meters and the B&B phase scope headroom meter. Once the first pair was aligned properly, I moved to the next track and paned it hard right to match the first track, et cetera, etc. I also listened in mono and A/B'd each and every track. Then I finally listened to each pre track via the solo buss. The mic pre's were exactly the same level to each other when Dave and I evaluated them.

I would like to take our top three picks and put them up against mic pre's we don't own or try. We should ask the various manufacturers that lurk on this board for a loan of their best pre's for the next mic pre shoot out (hint, hint, hint).

Let's set up the top three picks (from the first shoot out) with the next five units and track it to the DA98HR the same way. What do you think?

I would like to evaluate the following...

Grace
Great River
GML
Vintech

Any other sugestions?
Old 9th November 2002
  #43
Gear Nut
 

Crane Song
Phoenix
Old 9th November 2002
  #44
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Any other sugestions?
FMR RNP
both flavors of Great River
Old 9th November 2002
  #45
Gear Nut
 

How about the Vipre? Wasn't that one supposed to be in this shootout? Maybe I missed it.

I would also like to see how these pres stack up to the ones you tried M 2-610, 9098, Focusrite Red, Some APIs, 2108, 2022, MP-2nv, Manleys... Sorry I'm getting carried away. I'll go away now.
Old 9th November 2002
  #46
"Any other sugestions?"

Jim Demeter's fine VTMP
Brent Averill's popular 1272
Old 9th November 2002
  #47
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Ok, those were some really great suggestions.

Does anyone have any ideas on how we can borrow a few of them so we can do part II of this shoot out? Does anyone want to bring their preamp over for the evaluation?

All we need is five out of the listed suggestions...
Old 10th November 2002
  #48
Gear Addict
 
CrazyBeast's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules
Well at a glance Daking seems to have come out of that survey very well!
I'm sort of surprised the Precision did so well. I've never heard much about it, and isn't it quite inexpensive for 8 channels? Might be thinking of the wrong thing, but not bad results regardless given the company it was keeping...
Old 10th November 2002
  #49
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
I cannot speak for the other guys, but when Dave and I listened to the pre's. They all sounded good to us.

The P8's didn't make the top three, but we were splitting hairs on which sounded better then the other. In my opinion, The P8's sounded great with the 4V and the TLM170. The Daking added a nice color to most of the mics we used.

We should shoot out the next set of pre's against the top three picks from our last shoot out!!! Will the top three hold out in the next evaluation?
Old 10th November 2002
  #50
Gear Maniac
 

ok - back from the dead! I've been busy trying to get a few albums all wrapped up, and mastered, and all that great **** you have to do with smaller projects...

anyways - first off I wanted to chime in on my thoughs of the shootout and the verdicts...

I brought down the Telefunken V-276s, in the two weeks prior to the shootout I was not in a loving mood about the 276s. I was using them on GTRs, toms, Snare sometimes, and even rooms - yet everything was lacking alittle bit up top (that's what they sound like, big x-formers on the input and output stages). I even split a d-12e on a kick to both a 276 and a Digimax pre, the reslut was enough for the drummer to say "hey, my kick just changed". With a clean pre you can hear the beater resonase and decay, with the 276, you only caught a "heartbeat". I was excited to bring these down, because one it would be cool to see how they sound against other preamps, and two it would be cool to see what other ears thought of them, since they are not that commonplace.

Out of the preamps used, the only preamps In the shoot-out that I could say I really "knew" the sound of were the 276s, APIs, and P8s - I had not used the dakings, OSAs, ATI, Shep, or Vipre enough to really have their sounds in my head. I was going into this thinking I was going to prefer the API, and definatly more than the telefunkens.

Overall, I was suprised how much I liked the 276s on vocals, and with some mics on guitar. Yet for the Schoeps 4V's I brought down - the ATI was the clear and ahead winner for me on acoustics. When I have some extra bucks I'm going to hunt down one of those 8 channel ATI preamps that has the built in mixer and limiters...

I really didn't end up choosing the APIs as much as I though, and the OSAs even sounded cooler on some vocals and GTRs - it was like API with a bit more air, defiantly a very useable sound. Having 4 APIs and using them alot, I often wonder how people can track an album with 48 channels of that same color, just because too many beefy API tracks tends to make the lower mids of a mix cloudier for me, and lacking air - people often tell me my mixes are dark, and I think part of that has to do with me tracking alot of **** thru my APIs, or mabye I just suck?

I can't wait to get another shootout on, I'd like to see the following there:

1) the new Vintech 4-channel pre with eq (dallas?)
2) Millenia Media HV-3
3) Grace 201 or 801 (michael?)
4) Summit 2-channel (hear such mixed reviews on this one)
5) an Averill piece, 1272 possibly (I may be able to bring one down)

I still think it would be a great thing to do the "high end low end" shootout, and do just bass guitars, and kick drums - after all, these two are usually the glue of the mix - why not find out how to use the preamps to a reliable advantage

back to the lab MacGiver...
Old 10th November 2002
  #51
Gear Addict
 
Greg Heimbecker's Avatar
Along with the Grace, Millenia, Great River and Cranesong on the transparent end of things try to include the Earthworks 1024. Maybe a quick shout to Eric Blackmer or Fletcher could yield a demo unit.
I quite enjoy them finding it ever so slightly warmer than the Millenia and the extra outs come in handy all the time. rollz
Old 10th November 2002
  #52
Gear Maniac
 

I would also like to hear the Earthworks 1024 - I have hear stellar reviews from, and things like "boring" from others, yet who knows because some people even find the Millenia to be cold and boring, whatever that means to each set of ears...

I really do need to find another set or quartet of clean preamps, because after the APIs, Telefunkens, and soon to be Vintechs - I need some air on my canvas...

anyone considering selling a preamp they have, bring it along - at the end of the shootout if you still dont like it, and someone else loves it - you may have found yourself and easy trade....
Old 11th November 2002
  #53
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Here are some of my thoughts on this whole thing. For starters I’m not too surprised at the Dakings coming out on top for acoustic guitar. Out of all the preamps I own they’re usually the first ones I reach for when recording acoustic or anything that needs to be a bit brighter like overheads. But, when I’m recording electric guitar, horns, a B3 and Leslie, vocals, etc. they usually aren’t the first things I reach for. Mostly because I like having a bit more weight and hair in the sound. I think that if the sources had been different the Dakings would’ve ended up in the middle of the pack or towards the bottom and the Shep and API would’ve fared better. One thing that you need to consider is how things are going to sit in a mix. What happens when you stack up 16 or 24 or 40+ tracks of the same preamp with the same color? That’s why having different flavors of preamps around is great but for most people it’s not the thing holding them back. Personally I don’t know what I’d use 4 or 8 channels of Dakings on when tracking. After the overheads maybe snare, toms or the room mics. But, I’ve never been all that picky about the preamps I use for toms or room mics.

Overall the differences between preamps weren’t as great as the differences between the mics. It was kind of eye-opening to finally hear how little difference the mic pre made in the overall scheme of things. None of them really sucked but certain combinations of mic & preamp sounded better then others and all of the preamps had a certain character that held true across all the mics. After a while the differences tended to smear a bit and they all kind of sounded the same until I took a quick walk around the shop to clear my head. I’m going to disagree with Steve about the ATI and Dakings being similar. The Dakings aren’t anywhere near as thick as the ATI. On the quick drum test we did with the M149s the ATI’s were slammin as were the Shep and API. The OSA were kind of in the middle and the Dakings brought out the air and sizzle in the hi-hat and snares. The ATI’s though had the thickest bottom.

Onto the mics. The vocal was a bit rough to find a great mic for, mostly because Dave has a very different voice. Nothing jumped out at me as being really great or really sucking with two exceptions. The Royer R-121 just sounded horrible on his voice. It was like someone put a pillow over the speaker and boosted the low-mids. I’m not too surprised because you never hear people talk about using them on vocals. On acoustic guitar it was passable at best but not really a great choice IMHO. The other exception to the vocal mics was the Blue Kiwi. It’s an interesting sounding mic. Nowhere near flat, it’s actually very hyped and slants towards the upper mids and shaves off some of the bottom. It would be a great choice if you need a vocal or something to slice through a dense mix. To that it was a really bad match for Dave’s voice. Words like harsh, ugh, and the like were being thrown around. But, on the flip side I really liked how it matched up with the OSA preamp. It was an edgy, bright sound that reminded me a bit of Tom Pettys recent stuff or maybe Chris Cornell’s vocal sound on Superunknown. It’s definitely something I could see myself using with a lot of the heavier indie rock and punk/hardcore bands I work with. But, I wouldn’t really try it on a classical singer. Everyone really seemed to like the Baby Bottle on acoustic guitar which is something I don’t normally use it on, unless it happens to be a solo piece like this was. Normally it’s a bit too dark and thick for my tastes but I tend to like thinner acoustic guitars and they normally are trying to fit between a handful of electric’s, loud drums, maybe a distorted bass etc. Or maybe I’ve been doing too much FOH work (with custom fit plugs thankyouverymuch) and I’m used to the way a piezo sounds. The Schoeps sounded great on acoustic guitar and the plosives on the vocal made it unusable to me. The overall tone was ok but the mic almost started to block. It probably would’ve been better if we had a popper stopper on hand. But, we didn’t.

So uh, anyone got a question or comment?
Old 12th November 2002
  #54
Gear Maniac
 
dtobocman's Avatar
 

"Everyone really seemed to like the Baby Bottle on acoustic guitar which is something I don’t normally use it on, unless it happens to be a solo piece like this was. Normally it’s a bit too dark and thick for my tastes but I tend to like thinner acoustic guitars and they normally are trying to fit between a handful of electric’s, loud drums, maybe a distorted bass etc. "

... perhaps it had something to do with the Taylor. I play a 512 (mahagony, ultra-bright, tons of sitar-like harmonic content) and it marries poorly with a lot of typical "acoustic guitar mics" (I've had lots of trouble with my 4033, unless I back it off about 3').

I'm thinking of buying a Baby Bottle expressly for this purpose (I need a softer, more rounded top end than the 4033). I'm also thinking it will be a nice alternative choice for vocals too.

Jay, what's your opinion of the Baby Bottle? Is it a favorite mic of yours? A few words on this mic would be greatly appreciated (especially how it compared to the other mics in your shootout, M149 included).

Thanks,

David Tobocman
Old 12th November 2002
  #55
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
If you want a rounded top the Baby Bottle would be a good choice. It's a very un-condensor like condensor if that makes any sense. Like a lot of mics it either works or it doesn't work on things. I've found it works on electric guitar about 98% of the time, vocals about 40% of the time depending on the singers voice and how things are stacking up. If the mix is real dense it might not cut through. The only mic I can really remember comparing it to was the KM140. That sounded nice, like an acoustic guitar. There was nothing horrible about the sound but the Baby Bottle generated a few "that sounds nice" comments when we opened up the first fader. The 140 was less beefy and a bit more generic if that makes any sense. I don't remember how it sounds against the 149 but off the top of my head I remember the 149 having more top and less low mids. I could be way wrong though and I should really listen again before commenting.
Old 12th November 2002
  #56
Jax
Lives for gear
 

JK,

Thanks for the comments about the mics. Personally, I was more interested in how the mics sounded (esp. the Kiwi) than the difference between the preamps. I had already felt that the marriage between mic and pre was most important, but that the mic choice was always the most important consideration.

The description of the Kiwi with the OSA being a good sound for "using with a lot of the heavier indie rock and punk/hardcore bands..." has me very interested in checking out that combo. I would love to add some blatant graffiti to the wall of sound stuff I record. My U87 and CAD Vx-2 don't quite do it, sometimes (esp. the VX-2, which can be pretty smooth).

I think another great idea for a mic/pre shootout event would be mic'ing up a kit and doing overheads plus 1 room mic, using a drummer who can get loud enough to represent the kit's sound in 3 mics. Easier said than done, I'm sure, but it would be cool nonetheless. Possible candidates include: KM184, KM84, KM140, R121, 4050, Schoeps, Coles 4038, etc.

Thanks to all involved for going out of your way to make your shootout happen. Very informative!
Old 12th November 2002
  #57
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Possible candidates include: KM184, KM84, KM140, R121, 4050, Schoeps, Coles 4038, etc.
I'll be glad to kick in a pair of modified AKG 460B's if anyone's interested...
Old 12th November 2002
  #58
Lives for gear
 

I have a pair of Hardy M1's that are super transparent to my ear. They don't seem to fold under any conditions. I'd love to hear them against a few of the others (though I'll never sell them). Is there another party in the works?

Scott Greiner
http://www.juniorhifikit.com/
Old 12th November 2002
  #59
Lives for gear
 
Tim L's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
... The other exception to the vocal mics was the Blue Kiwi.
I'm assuming the pattern used on the Kiwi was cardioid. Where any of the other patterns explored? Also, could you tell us the distance the singer was from the mic. I've seen it mentioned that the proximity effect comes into play much closer on this mic than many other vocal mics. If I'm not mistaken BLUE recommends getting right up on this thing to get a fuller sounding result. Just wondering if you guy's may have given this a shot?
Old 12th November 2002
  #60
Lives for gear
 
blackcatdigi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Remoteness

Any other sugestions?
DW Fearn
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