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Hacked off by an amateur with a dat machine?? Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 11th March 2007
  #1
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Talking Hacked off by an amateur with a dat machine??

Ten years ago I was hacked off by an amateur with a dat machine.

Now I'm hacked off by an amateur with a laptop.

Commentary??
Old 11th March 2007
  #2
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Remoteness's Avatar
I feel you...

Nowadays, every amateur with a laptop and some software is a "Remote Recording" engineer.

Clients seem to forget about the integrity and experience of a seasoned professional when they hear what that "Laptop Hack" charges for their service.
They forget about all the important stuff until it's too late.
Old 11th March 2007
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Ten years ago I was hacked off by an amateur with a dat machine.

Now I'm hacked off by an amateur with a laptop.

Commentary??
Plushy, as I am not familiar with the Chicago vernacular, I assume "hacked off" means you lost a job to this person, rather than lost a limb! The think you put it well, the operative word being "amateur". The client will return when the hacker can't produce the result.
Old 11th March 2007
  #4
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RedEar's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Plushy, as I am not familiar with the Chicago vernacular, I assume "hacked off" means you lost a job to this person, rather than lost a limb! The think you put it well, the operative word being "amateur". The client will return when the hacker can't produce the result.
I thought he meant he was frustrated by the presence of...

I agree with you though. If you do a good job for what you charge, whatever that is, you will (in theory) get the work. Haveing said that. I have a budy who can get these great sounds from an M-Box. Super anoying when You have a console and converters and a clock and he says, "I like to use my one mic and the m-box."

I guess to me the market will always be flooded with guys charging less for shody work. See Old Navy or Kia or any number of other low cut buisnesses.

The chanlenge apears to be to fill the voids, and keep good contact with the clients and potential clients. Good work speaks for itself.
Old 11th March 2007
  #5
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ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Plushy, as I am not familiar with the Chicago vernacular, I assume "hacked off" means you lost a job to this person, rather than lost a limb! The think you put it well, the operative word being "amateur". The client will return when the hacker can't produce the result.
I am relieved to see that even the native speakers have some difficulties to understand the exact meaning of this message heh So my English is not THAT bad as I first thought
Old 11th March 2007
  #6
Here for the gear
 

Re:

I'm sorry.

However its the nature of things... the industry now has degree-holding engineers with [little or] no experience flooding the job market, recording gear intended for composers and musician's project studios, and quality diminished for quantity...

I'm young, and could have possibly been one of those twerps who hacked a job from an older vet. However, I've also seen older guys (one in particular) drive me crazy once he built a studio based on the same small gear and no training.

Manufactures make it too easy, and the Internet fills in the rest.
Old 12th March 2007
  #7
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so much for the sticky, "Remote Possibilities - A positive vibe!".

everyone has to get their start somehow, and hopefully this community doesn't see newcomers trying to get a foot in the door as competiton. when i attended sae in bangkok i taught english to children living in the slums of nuan chan soi song for free, because i like to help out people when i can. if any engineer would like to give me an internship in the la or orange county area, i will gladly work for them for free in exchange for the knowedge i'd be receiving. lunch is on me everyday i work there! heh

i plan to offer my services for free when i begin because a) the market that i intend to cater to (local guzheng players mainly, since i have a store selling guzhengs in hacienda heights, and garage bands) either don't have the money to spend or aren't willing to spend money on a recording, and b) i wouldn't want anyone to pay for my services yet . i would gladly let prospective customers know my limitations and recommend other engineers' services if what i offer doesn't meet clients' expectations. i don't how my offering is competing with an experienced engineer. heck, the way i see it, i'm planting seeds into a market segment that woundn't have ever considered recording services before and preparing them for better engineers like you fine folks.

Old 12th March 2007
  #8
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That's been the story of my life... Having to change my work paradigm because of the folks low-balling jobs. Now, that I'm pretty firmly placed in the "high end" camp, I have fewer problems, but I still get tons of folks cancelling out because they found some guy with a couple mics and an M box who charges half as much and gives a much prettier CD (full graphic design included).

--Ben
Old 12th March 2007
  #9
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Remoteness's Avatar
I hear you loud and clear on that one!
Old 12th March 2007
  #10
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Quote:
but I still get tons of folks cancelling out because they found some guy with a couple mics and an M box who charges half as much and gives a much prettier CD (full graphic design included).
Yup...kinda makes you feel like their perception of your/our services and products aren't very high, doesn't it?

Or my personal favorite, heard more and more at the 'wildcats' we do (we record, mix, master, and sell the CDs directly to parents, school administrations, etc...) "We'll just buy one and make all the copies we need at the school..."
Old 12th March 2007
  #11
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Personally, I believe that talented high-end folks are not losing work to amateurs. 20 years ago, it was a big deal to go record. I remember twice having to save up for two years to have the cash to book studio time.

Today, everybody and their mother has a CD. There is more work, there are more studios. The top talent still seeks out the top studios. The guys who go to someone cheaper than you would liekly not have used your services in the first place.

If anything, when someone does a project at a hack studio then wonders why it doesn't sound like a pro CD, it ends up teaching the performer that they get what they pay for.

Ferrari doesn't lose business to Ford. If Ferrari was the only car available, most folks would be riding the bus.
Old 12th March 2007
  #12
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I am one of the "laptop hacks" learning everything I can about recording. I don't see it as offensive to be called that! I definitely fill a niche in the market that established, great remote engineers would not work in, doing low budget simple live recordings for local bands and friends, as well as my own gigs. Recently I got a fostex vf160 because my laptop was causing me problems, so now I'm a fostex hack! I definitely try to do my best on every gig and in no way think I am replacing the services of some of the folks here, and one day I hope to be in a position to learn from them in person. Recording is not my day job though, I work with people with disabilities as a behaviorist by day (and night...). Hopefully someone doing a major project for broadcast or such would not be calling me- if you want a neve or something from me you would be out of luck (although I'd love to have one!). Anyway, I understand your frustration though because I am a partner in a wedding band and we are constantly being undercut. Like you said, you get what you pay for. End of a long day, hopefully I made some sense, hope I am not causing any of you frustration!
Old 12th March 2007
  #13
Gear Head
 

Every industry out there has multiple tiers of service and quality. A well established graphic designer will build you a better website than a kid that just started building them. You get what you pay for. So don't get mad when people charge less for lesser quality. If your product really is better and worth their dime, they'll come to you next time. Everyone starts somewhere. I'm sick of people pissing and moaning about competition and other guys getting in the game. Deal with it.
Old 12th March 2007
  #14
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Remoteness's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuspater View Post
so much for the sticky, "Remote Possibilities - A positive vibe!"...
I believe Phil, the person that started the "Remote Possibilities - A positive vibe!" thread was talking about the vibe of this forum and how everyone responds to Q&As...

IMO, he feels it's a cool place to hang because we all share our knowledge and opinions without an attitude and that's vital to him.

Now, back to the show...
Old 12th March 2007
  #15
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Sometimes, a pre like the DAV BG1 performs so well that it makes a better investment than an EAR pre costing ten times as much, no? No tubes, no transformers, chip based design... it has all the things going against it but still manages to perform on par, no?

does this take away from the engineering brilliance of the EAR? Certainly not, but it sure makes it much harder to sell...

respect,
Old 12th March 2007
  #16
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ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiothings View Post
Sometimes, a pre like the DAV BG1 performs so well that it makes a better investment than an EAR pre costing ten times as much, no? No tubes, no transformers, chip based design... it has all the things going against it but still manages to perform on par, no?

does this take away from the engineering brilliance of the EAR? Certainly not, but it sure makes it much harder to sell...

respect,
Having both, Mr. Plush said few times that DAV and Ear sound basically identical to him ... (only I am not sure whether we talk about this in the right thread ?)
Old 12th March 2007
  #17
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phil.'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
I believe Phil, the person that started the "Remote Possibilities - A positive vibe!" thread was talking about the vibe of this forum and how everyone responds to Q&As...

IMO, he feels it's a cool place to hang because we all share our knowledge and opinions without an attitude and that's vital to him.
Very much my point, Steve.

By the way, got a mail from Kaz yesterday and are looking forward to writing with him. Thanks for setting it up!
Old 12th March 2007
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fifthcircle View Post
That's been the story of my life... Having to change my work paradigm because of the folks low-balling jobs. Now, that I'm pretty firmly placed in the "high end" camp, I have fewer problems, but I still get tons of folks cancelling out because they found some guy with a couple mics and an M box who charges half as much and gives a much prettier CD (full graphic design included).
12 years ago or so i was an amateur with a DAT machine and a couple of mics and started recording together with a friend. Only once did we "hack" someone's job, but he really had no idea of classical recording at all, and we knew the conductor...
A few years ago, when the conductor retired, we lost the same choir to a "professional", i.e. a guy with an engineering degree, whose recordings were in no way better than ours. He plain and simple undercut our prices. Lost a lot of money because of this bum, now I come to think of it....


Where I live now, there's a totally incompetent amateur with two mics who sings in every other choir and records the stuff - impossible to get any jobs from these ensembles. No way to convince conductors with quality in a situation like that. Having delivered a nice recording of "Jephtha" to another choir early last year, for the next concert they tell us that someone from the choir was going to record it now... Again, it turned out to be someone with two microphones...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midlandmorgan View Post
Or my personal favorite, heard more and more at the 'wildcats' we do (we record, mix, master, and sell the CDs directly to parents, school administrations, etc...) "We'll just buy one and make all the copies we need at the school..."
Heard the same kind of thing from a conductor who had hired a school choir to help out in a concert. Someone fromthat choir (who actually is a music teacher at a public school) seemed to have suggested to buy one copy for the choir and copy it... Called him up (without mentioning this in particular) and agreed to selling them some CDs at a reduced rate, which is perfectly alright for me...

Daniel
Old 12th March 2007
  #19
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I'm with you guys oun this subject; I only add that it gets even worse when the client gets back to you to fix the bad recordings made by the guy who hacked you off in the first place...I got a call from a client (who turned down my estimate for the job because he found a guy who had a 002 and could do that for less...) saying: "Hey, you know...we're here in his studio trying to mix the tracks, but we've having some issues, how do you do this and that move in Pro Tools?" It takes a lot of guts to make a call like that...if you know what I mean dfegad

L.G.
Old 12th March 2007
  #20
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i really don't like to post much because i don't know much. i would much rather lurk around gearslutz and soak up all the knowledge i can. the only reason i started a new thread (mobile recording rig suggestions) was after reading the positive comments from "Remote Possibilities - A positive vibe!" i read comments from others stating how people in the remote forum are nice to each other, friendly, sympathetic, and how we're all worthy.

threads like this one reminds me that no matter the sub-culture, there will always be the haves and the have-nots. in motorcycle riding there's the riders and squids, in surfing the surfers and barneys, in the outsiders the socs and greasers. i guess on gearslutz there's the engineers and laptop hacks. reading this thread didn't make me feel like a part of the community, however junior my status may be, but rather like an outsider looking in.

i read dan richards' article, "Some Thoughts on Audio Engineering as a Career" and he suggested offering recording services for free if need be. i would love to have a mentor teach me the ins and outs of being an engineer, but since that isn't my reality, i'll use every resource available to me to try to earn a living doing something i love.

having said that, i won't ever tell people what i can offer is as good as a professional studio until the product i produce is, which won't be for a long time. in the meantime, i'm going to get experience by recording little old ladies playing a traditional chinese instrument for free.
Old 12th March 2007
  #21
Quote:
Ten years ago I was hacked off by an amateur with a dat machine.

Now I'm hacked off by an amateur with a laptop.

Commentary??
you suck heh heh
Old 12th March 2007
  #22
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d_fu's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerax View Post
I'm with you guys oun this subject; I only add that it gets even worse when the client gets back to you to fix the bad recordings made by the guy who hacked you off in the first place....
Same here... No "hack" involved, but there's a small vocal ensemble that I've recorded a few times, who have also hired a two-mic amateur a couple of times, and who have already twice sent me his (disastrous) recordings to edit/fix... Been asking them why they don't hire me instead, but to no avail - they didn't ask me to record their recent concert... Maybe they're afraid I'd be too expensive.

Old 12th March 2007
  #23
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One of my favorites from this line of 'thinking' has been an un named school district asked how much it would take to extract the audio off of a Camcorder, and (direct quote) "make it sound like you recorded it with several mics?"

How do you answer that? I ended up taking on the project, but the results were flaky (and it took some monster tweaking to get it to that point...)..charged them what it would have cost for us to remote record a master anyway...

I am pretty sure that once the sonic quality issues become obvious enough, things will get back to normal...what ever that is.
Old 12th March 2007
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midlandmorgan View Post
I am pretty sure that once the sonic quality issues become obvious enough, things will get back to normal...what ever that is.
IF the sonic quality issues become obvious. The guys listening to music on their mobile phones don't know the term "sonic quality".
The gap between "cheap" and "good" will become greater. It's about positioning oneself on one side of the gap.
Old 12th March 2007
  #25
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by phil. View Post
Very much my point, Steve.

By the way, got a mail from Kaz yesterday and are looking forward to writing with him. Thanks for setting it up!


Kazutaka is a great guy!
Old 12th March 2007
  #26
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Plush's Avatar
Wow, guys!

I didn't think that a moment of pique would produce such good feedback and stories.

By the way, I'm using "hacked off" to mean annoyed at the existence of. . .

carry on. . .and remember, a laptop does multi-track too!!
Old 12th March 2007
  #27
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Thank you for you explanation. I really appreciate the enlightenment.

I still feel the folks that hang around the Remote Possibilities forum are friendly and sympathetic for the most part. At least I feel that way and I DO believe we are all worthy.

This thread discusses a completely different situation. When you clearly pointed out the diverse sub-cultures and how there will always be the haves and the have-nots (IMO) it’s not the same thing here. It’s about deception, especially when the client does know or understand the difference between, experience and quality equipment and an amateur with a laptop, but this is my opinion and you folks may have an another view point.

Everyone is welcomed to this forum. It has been like this since I started it back October 2002. IMO, you are only a “hack” when deception, greed and trickery got you the gig. This doesn’t even have to be between the haves and have notes. The “haves” have battled it out with each other plenty of times.

You are part of the community – whether you’re junior or a senior you’re a part of this Remoteville neighborhood!

I get the impression that you are a good person with an optimistic vibe. I encourage you to step back and look at the big picture here.

Did you just read that “Positive Remote Forum” thread can come up with your thoughts on this forum or have you looked at how this forum operates? There are plenty of situations (threads) that point this forum into good light. Can you see that good light?


Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuspater View Post
i really don't like to post much because i don't know much. i would much rather lurk around gearslutz and soak up all the knowledge i can. the only reason i started a new thread (mobile recording rig suggestions) was after reading the positive comments from "Remote Possibilities - A positive vibe!" i read comments from others stating how people in the remote forum are nice to each other, friendly, sympathetic, and how we're all worthy.

threads like this one reminds me that no matter the sub-culture, there will always be the haves and the have-nots. in motorcycle riding there's the riders and squids, in surfing the surfers and barneys, in the outsiders the socs and greasers. i guess on gearslutz there's the engineers and laptop hacks. reading this thread didn't make me feel like a part of the community, however junior my status may be, but rather like an outsider looking in.

i read dan richards' article, "Some Thoughts on Audio Engineering as a Career" and he suggested offering recording services for free if need be. i would love to have a mentor teach me the ins and outs of being an engineer, but since that isn't my reality, i'll use every resource available to me to try to earn a living doing something i love.

having said that, i won't ever tell people what i can offer is as good as a professional studio until the product i produce is, which won't be for a long time. in the meantime, i'm going to get experience by recording little old ladies playing a traditional chinese instrument for free.
Old 12th March 2007
  #28
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
I wish I read Plushy's reply before I wrote that last post. I would have changed it around a bit.

In any event, this is an interesting thread for sure.
Old 12th March 2007
  #29
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d_fu's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
the difference between, experience and quality equipment and an amateur with a laptop
Nothing wrong with laptops in principle, is there? I do all my live recording with a laptop...
Old 12th March 2007
  #30
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Remoteness's Avatar
I believe the operative word is "amateur" with or without a laptop.
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