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How good is Tascam HS-P82 recorder vs sound Devices? Recorders, Players & Tape Machines
Old 31st December 2016
  #31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy-boy View Post
Aren't most of the terms we use to describe sound unquantifiable? Warm, lush, neutral, bright, clear, muddy etc... these are qualitative terms.

Stats serve a purpose, but i care more about how equipment sounds and functions. And for field recording i also care a lot about ergonomics.

Tom
Normally, there are quantifiable differences that we describe qualitatively, at least when those differences survive blind testing. For instance, in the F8 1kHz graph, I see that the 2kHz harmonic is significantly higher compared to the tascam and 788. This reinforces the claim of midrange muddiness.
Old 31st December 2016
  #32
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It bears mentioning I think that part of what you are paying for with SD (and Zax) is that in the USA anyhow when you call them on the phone they answer, and usually can put you through to someone who can help you. I have called SD many times from a live movie set or recording gig and had them "talk me down". This doesn't mean they can miraculously do repairs by telekineses or anything, but they know their stuff and can troubleshoot with you in real time (not via email or worse yet, via a web page). For a professional this is a big deal.
Old 31st December 2016
  #33
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Phil, it is a big deal for an amateur, too. The folks at SD are super helpful. I have not had to call them often but when I have it has always been handled well.
Old 1st January 2017
  #34
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Thanks to all who weighed in! (OP)

Thanks to everyone who entered into this discussion. While I opted to order a new MBPro and continue schlepping my ULN-8 rack, it was very instructive. Maybe there is a stand-alone device in my future at some point, but since i do remotes including concert bands and orchestras, I don't want to settle for less than stellar mic pres and converters. These devices are getting better, so I'll just keep my eyes open down the road.

Once again, a very instructive and useful discussion-thanks!

Robert Cartwright
perfectwavedigital.com
San Diego
Old 2nd January 2017
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
Normally, there are quantifiable differences that we describe qualitatively, at least when those differences survive blind testing. For instance, in the F8 1kHz graph, I see that the 2kHz harmonic is significantly higher compared to the tascam and 788. This reinforces the claim of midrange muddiness.
Take a look at the video DougS posted. It does a nice job at further explaining the differences between cheap recorders (such as those made by Zoom), and a Sound Devices.

I think noting that the zooms are cheap is a valid comment. Relative to SD they are cheap. SD builds recorders to be the best that they can in terms of sound quality, features, ergonomics, usability, ruggedness, support, etc... Zoom primarily builds to a price point. Zoom will probably sell more F8s than SD will sell 788Ts. However, I'd take a 788T over an F8 any day of the week (and twice on Sunday).

For some people the F8 is already a financial stretch - so that is a good recorder for them. For others, where they can afford more, why would they monkey around with an F8 when they would be happier with an SD or Horus or Nagra?

-Tom
Old 2nd January 2017
  #36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy-boy View Post
Take a look at the video DougS posted. It does a nice job at further explaining the differences between cheap recorders (such as those made by Zoom), and a Sound Devices.

I think noting that the zooms are cheap is a valid comment. Relative to SD they are cheap. SD builds recorders to be the best that they can in terms of sound quality, features, ergonomics, usability, ruggedness, support, etc... Zoom primarily builds to a price point. Zoom will probably sell more F8s than SD will sell 788Ts. However, I'd take a 788T over an F8 any day of the week (and twice on Sunday).

For some people the F8 is already a financial stretch - so that is a good recorder for them. For others, where they can afford more, why would they monkey around with an F8 when they would be happier with an SD or Horus or Nagra?

-Tom
I agree that there are lots of reasons to buy stuff that's more expensive. Where I disagreed with others was in the use of "junk" to describe it. To me, "junk" is something that can't do the job it was built to do; a car that doesn't run, a bicycle with no chain, a microphone with a ruptured diaphragm... that's junk.

If you're working with high dollar clients and remote recording is your bread and butter, I agree that the higher-end boxes offer good value. If this is a side job, a hobby, or working in a lower market, then, as you say, the F8 is probably a good recorder.
Old 2nd January 2017
  #37
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I'd also add that SD builds to a price and market niche also - there are two and 8 channel A/D units that don't record that cost as much or more per channel as SD recorders do.
Old 2nd January 2017
  #38
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I have a sd702, a hsp82 and I used to have a dr680.

I use sennheiser 8020's, holophone h2 pro 7.1, neumann rsm191 and a barcus berry contact mic.

The dr680 wasnt good. It was cheap at the time it came out and I could afford it so yeah.

The 702 recorder vs the hsp82?? Yes the hsp82 keeps up and I may say sound slightly better? Great deep detail. No noise. The upper mids sound better on the hsp82 than the 702. The 702 is NO SLOUCH but its a bit soft in this part of the frequency range. Its not bad just different. I use it always and the stuff I record can be abused and still sound great. Im so glad I tried the hs-p82 because it was totally worth it for the sound.

The bad? Well the silver knobs are held on by a little screw thing. Ones fallen off. I have it but dont have the right screw driver to put it back on. Oh well. Its not used anyhow. Build quality sd wins.

The headphone amp isnt great but you will live. SD wins here. You dont get a lot of output options on this recorded. I dont care I'm recording sound effects.

Its a bit heavy and lugging it around in a shoulder bag gets tiresome. If I have to do it 5 days a week Id be looking for other options.

I get access to some amazing studio spaces. I always go in with my own gear and record in off hours. These preamps are put in situations where the flaws will be heard because the rooms are virtually flawless (some rumble [email protected] 40hz). They also work going out and about.

If I travel far I will have a carry on of the sd702 and 8020's only though. Very light combo. Or I will travel a bit heavier with the hs-p82 and the holophone and rsm191 and contact mic. If I can have buddies I bring it all.











^ holophone and rsm191 best friends forever. With the hsp82
Old 1st January 2018
  #39
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rojaros's Avatar
I got my Tascam HS-P82 secd. hand summer 2017 and I must say, I'm quite happy with the sound. When recorded directly as compared to Millenia Pres I prefer directly.

I'm quite clear that I'm nobody in the recording world, so don't take my word for it, but I think, it's a very decent machine. It's also a very heavy recorder, and that's why I'm still looking out for something of that sound quality with less kgs to drag. I'd love to learn that the preamps of SD Mixpre 10T are at least as good as those of the Tascam, but I'm not sure... Unfortunately nobody is offering any opinion in my post concerning this.
Old 2nd January 2018
  #40
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JSt0rm's Avatar
It’s pretty early. I’m thinking about getting a 10t for the reasons you mentioned. If I do I’ll post about my opinion.
Old 3rd February 2018
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
I have a sd702, a hsp82 and I used to have a dr680.
The bad? Well the silver knobs are held on by a little screw thing. Ones fallen off. I have it but dont have the right screw driver to put it back on. Oh well. Its not used anyhow. Build quality sd wins.
Referring to the inhex set screw requiring an imperial 0.89 mm Allen key? That's quite small. The smallest Allen key I have is metric 0.7 mm but I don't have the smallest imperial sizes, imperial size tools are overpriced and not very widespread here (mostly used for car repairs). Don't get it why such small screws are used as unless using high quality screws and tools it's easily impossible to tighten or loosen such small screws.


The TASCAM HS-P82 and Sound Devices are sort of intended for different categories field uses.

The SD are tough tools for a niche market, they're expected to be very reliable and if there's some issue the support must be a phone call away (i.e. being able to talk directly to design engineers if required, not just some ignorant call center agent).

The TEAC TASCAM are more volume products intended for a wider range of users. More functionalities but less rugged (I laos suppose less reliable, both software and hardware) and less support.

I'd say that these product lines are more sort of complementary than in direct competition though there are overlaps.

That said, for really mission-critical uses only redundancy and preferably also with diversity is the answer.
Old 3rd February 2018
  #42
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Originally Posted by Schoeller View Post
The TASCAM HS-P82 and Sound Devices are sort of intended for different categories field uses.

The SD are tough tools for a niche market, they're expected to be very reliable and if there's some issue the support must be a phone call away (i.e. being able to talk directly to design engineers if required, not just some ignorant call center agent).

The TEAC TASCAM are more volume products intended for a wider range of users. More functionalities but less rugged (I laos suppose less reliable, both software and hardware) and less support.

I'd say that these product lines are more sort of complementary than in direct competition though there are overlaps.
Yet more generalization, conjecture and lazy opinionizing... not backed up with facts. The makers put products out there they guess/hope will capture a niche and respond to user requests: across functionality, ruggedness, reliability, ergonomics, battery life and many other ergonomic and ease of use criteria.

The marketplace reads reviews, tries out, swaps stories of field experiences, sells and trades in sub-par gear for better gear, makes firmware requests etc etc. Market share levels itself out, in a Darwinian sort of way

It's a dynamic and changing landscape, I'm sorry to say Schoeller....the users determine the viability of the equipment for their particular purposes, and over time the market levels out. Items which are overpriced or over specialized or have long-term unaddressed reliability issues go the way of dinosaurs. It's not something which conforms to your simple catch-phrases or 'business models'.

SD and Nagra and Tascam and (now Zoom F4/8) seem to be equally dispersed between film/video sound and location concert recording users. The marketplace has spoken, the cards have fallen where they will....ignorant of and contradictory to your pronouncements....

re Tascam: you appear to single them out for particular criticism, for failing to provide firmware updates or respond to user requests for improvements.

Here is a list of ongoing updates for a device recently much discussed here, the HS-P82, that's 5 years worth of maintenance fixes and firmware updates : http://tascam.com/content/downloads/..._rn_vg_200.pdf

I'm guessing Sound Devices would have a similar track record of customer responsiveness ?

Now check out the presence of a Tascam (USA) rep Tom Duffy on a pro video forum, noting his readiness to engage snappily with user requests...that's good PR, and not from the source country (Japan) either: Can we get reviews as to how the HS-P82 and Nagra 6 been performing out in the field? - Page 2 - Equipment - JWSOUNDGROUP

Zoom also (post #23 ) : Zoom F8 vs. Sound Devices 722

The simplistic East/West divide of customer engagement and feedback is a construction of your limited imagination. If not, let's hear more concrete examples supporting your flimsy assertions...

Last edited by studer58; 3rd February 2018 at 03:45 PM..
Old 4th February 2018
  #43
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Plush's Avatar
Fantastical demand for “proof.”

The customer report IS the report and the proof.
Old 5th February 2018
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philper View Post
It bears mentioning I think that part of what you are paying for with SD (and Zax) is that in the USA anyhow when you call them on the phone they answer, and usually can put you through to someone who can help you. I have called SD many times from a live movie set or recording gig and had them "talk me down". This doesn't mean they can miraculously do repairs by telekineses or anything, but they know their stuff and can troubleshoot with you in real time (not via email or worse yet, via a web page). For a professional this is a big deal.
True, no doubt.

But I have never needed to call Nagra ever. That's even better.
Old 5th February 2018
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
True, no doubt.

But I have never needed to call Nagra ever. That's even better.
If you'd ever had to I bet you can talk to a design engineer if required. It's a small company anyway, around 25 people (and in such high tech domains small is beautiful). Just the right size IM(NS)HO.

The "statuts" of the Audio Technology Switzerland SA (Société anonyme) can be found here (scans of the original documents, from the trade register of the canton de Vaud, Switzerland which is like a state in the USA or a Land in Germany or département in France):
http://www.rc2.vd.ch/registres/hrcin...00000055031012

The text is quite standard, usually it's written by a "notaire" but you can also write it yourself to save some money when registering a SA but the "notaire" is legally required. Founding a SA is simple, for various reasons now many new small businesses are founded sàrl (LLC, GmbH) rather than as SA (AG, Inc).

Referring to Studer058's message, I respect his opinion we simply mostly strongly disagree when it comes to some topics, especially some country-specific comparisons.

My posts are based on my experience, I don't bash anyone but I don't feel obliged to be politically correct either. I defend the freedom of speech, not the pensée unique à la française.

To state things clearly, I'm not against Asian products, in another life I worked directly with Taiwanese companies and everything went very smooth, great support, excellent quality, delays as agreed, no administrative/financial issues. I remember that everyone's first name was English but the last name was Taiwanese. I also met some business partners at CeBit shows.

Mainland China I've not that much direct experience but IMO it can't be compared to Taiwan.

My POV about Nagra having some (or all?) handheld recorders manufactured in China is strictly personal. As Swiss I've always been firmly defending the Swiss Made, my own experience with a lot of Chinese products from all sorts of mass-manufactured commodities to industrial devices from major companies has been a very mixed bag. While for example the mainboards I use as well as some other electronic equipment was well built and reliable, a lot is still sort of a lottery, once it's great, once it's crap and as I said, often you face quality variations for the same article.

The other point is more a related to fair trade, respecting patents, the political system, human rights, set. (here listed in no specific order).
Old 5th February 2018
  #46
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Originally Posted by Schoeller View Post
The other point is more a related to fair trade, respecting patents, the political system, human rights, set. (here listed in no specific order).
At least you're nailing your colours to the mast, and simply advancing the strawman argument that because you dislike the country of origin of a product, it must of necessity be inferior. In fact that's closer to the 'Genetic fallacy', which runs thus:

"Genetic Fallacy: The genetic fallacy is the claim that an idea, product, or person must be untrustworthy because of its racial, geographic, or ethnic origin. "That car can't possibly be any good! It was made in Japan!" Or, "Why should I listen to her argument? She comes from California, and we all know those people are flakes." Or, "Ha! I'm not reading that book. It was published in Tennessee, and we know all Tennessee folk are hillbillies and rednecks!" This type of fallacy is closely related to the fallacy of argumentum ad hominem or personal attack....."
Logical Fallacies Handlist

Anyway, the whole country of origin/racial angle has been raised repeatedly and exhaustively in this forum, and typically devolves down to the same points being advanced, refuted or denied...in short it's a no-win

Returning to topic...I've read from 2 sources that the device in question of this thread (the Tascam HS-P82) is in fact made in China. Is any owner of this recorder able to turn theirs upsidedown and verify or refute, based on what's printed as country of manufacture on the underside (plate the feet are attached to) ? rojaros...Plush..JSt0rm ? How good is Tascam HS-P82 recorder vs sound Devices?

Last edited by studer58; 5th February 2018 at 11:43 AM..
Old 5th February 2018
  #47
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Plush's Avatar
Yes, HSP-82 is made in China. It's a great machine. I have another one new in the box unopened for sale in case anyone is interested.

If one closely supervises Chinese manufacture, and makes a rigorous quality control regimen, then I think it can be good.

Taiwanese is clearly much better.

As far as a comparison between HS-P82 and Sound Devices, I would say they are equivalent. It just depends on your budget and your preferences for ergonomics.
Sound Devices is made in Wisconsin by ex-Shure people.
Old 6th February 2018
  #48
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The TEAC TASCAM devices I saw didn't show flaws related to manufacturing issues. The boards I remember (also some made in China) were, "visually speaking" just as good as any other PCB assembly used in the industry or in high-end gear (referring to the PCB assy manufacturing, not comparing the used parts).

I rather commented some design oddities and the excessive cost optimizing in some cases but not production process quality issues per se.
Interestingly I rather believe that while the audio-related performance is kept quite good, corners are cut elsewhere to save some money.

Also compared to high-end equipment some audio performance differences are probably so subtle that only seasoned professionals can notice them.
Old 6th February 2018
  #49
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rojaros's Avatar
Now I have used the Tascam HS-P82 for quite some time and quite extensively. It has naver failed, and the recordings never disapppinted me. I have this 8 channel 25lbs heavy Millenia HV3D preamp that I have not missed since I'm using the Tascam. Surely Millenia has it's merits as compared to Tascam pres, but this is the realm of diminishing returns in terms of price and of handling.

It may be made wherever it is, but it's a very, very good and reliable machine IMHO. The only downside I see for myself is that it's still heavy.

But hey, if I think of my 2 six units 19" cases full of stuff to achieve esentially the same without any essential improvement of sound quality I'm very content!
Old 6th February 2018
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougS View Post
I've been researching these recorders (have not bought one yet) and the big draw for me on the Sound Devices tools (vs Tascam or Zoom) are the analog limiters the SD units have built in. My understanding is that Tascam and Zoom have digital limiters - which are a cost conscious significant compromise to keep the price point down.

My understanding is that digital limiters use part of the digital bandwidth for "head room" which is not as effective for saving 'overs' as analog and means the rest of the sound is squeezed into a narrow bandwidth reducing the sound quality.

Like studio recording interfaces (Burl, etc.) - a big difference between the cheap and the high-end stuff is the quality of the analog signal path. And that also seems to be true in these field recorders. Good analog pathways are expensive.

Here's a nice video that compares (more broadly) these units, plus he spends some time discussing the analog limiters in the Sound Devices units.

I could be wrong, but don't think so - the HS-P82 is an analog limiter.
Old 6th February 2018
  #51
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The HS-P82 is analog limiting
Old 7th February 2018
  #52
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rojaros View Post
Now I have used the Tascam HS-P82 for quite some time and quite extensively. It has naver failed, and the recordings never disapppinted me. I have this 8 channel 25lbs heavy Millenia HV3D preamp that I have not missed since I'm using the Tascam. Surely Millenia has it's merits as compared to Tascam pres, but this is the realm of diminishing returns in terms of price and of handling.

It may be made wherever it is, but it's a very, very good and reliable machine IMHO. The only downside I see for myself is that it's still heavy.

But hey, if I think of my 2 six units 19" cases full of stuff to achieve esentially the same without any essential improvement of sound quality I'm very content!
What kind of projects have you used the Tascam HS-P82 for? Music or film?
Old 7th February 2018
  #53
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Music. Orchestral, vocal, acoustic, ambient. For people who can’t hear the difference between the two devices I question whether they should even be recording anything. It’s night and day different. Not necessarily night and day better or worse...just different. The SD I must say is quieter than the Tascam but the sound signature is not good enough for music when the Tascam is clearly superior. But...post can fix a lot and you can’t ignore the form factor and ease of use with SD. The Tascam sounds crystal clear.
Old 7th February 2018
  #54
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rojaros's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogmusic View Post
What kind of projects have you used the Tascam HS-P82 for? Music or film?
I'm only recording music, acoustic ('unplugged') only, using very high quality microphones...
Old 7th February 2018
  #55
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rojaros View Post
I'm only recording music, acoustic ('unplugged') only, using very high quality microphones...
Are these recordings of a classical ensemble in a concert hall? Which microphones do you use?

I currently only record acoustic piano or sometimes also natural sounds near to my house. I've been using a Millenia HV-3C but I'm not sure it is a good match for my piano which is a bit bright.
Old 7th February 2018
  #56
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rojaros's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogmusic View Post
Are these recordings of a classical ensemble in a concert hall? Which microphones do you use?

I currently only record acoustic piano or sometimes also natural sounds near to my house. I've been using a Millenia HV-3C but I'm not sure it is a good match for my piano which is a bit bright.
I'm sure Millenia is a very very good, actually excellent, preamp; maybe the microphone choice is the more decisive point.

I use a lot Jim Williams moded AKG C460B with either CK61 or CK1 or CK22 capsules; also DPA 4011. The AKGs sound very natural and uncontrived.

I mostly record the acoustic duo with 6 stringed cello or viola and me playing either guitars (6 and 7 strings spanish/nylon strings guitars) or drums. I record at home in basically untreated cellar...

you can look up my work on my Youtube channel TheMusicalEvents (one word)

The live concert published in several parts (two are already online) were recorded via the Tsacam HS-P82 (internal pres) using only the Neumann USM 69 in MS-Mode (cardiod M)...

Which microphones are you using? For
zB.
Old 7th February 2018
  #57
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rojaros View Post
I'm sure Millenia is a very very good, actually excellent, preamp; maybe the microphone choice is the more decisive point.

I use a lot Jim Williams moded AKG C460B with either CK61 or CK1 or CK22 capsules; also DPA 4011. The AKGs sound very natural and uncontrived.

I mostly record the acoustic duo with 6 stringed cello or viola and me playing either guitars (6 and 7 strings spanish/nylon strings guitars) or drums. I record at home in basically untreated cellar...

you can look up my work on my Youtube channel TheMusicalEvents (one word)

The live concert published in several parts (two are already online) were recorded via the Tsacam HS-P82 (internal pres) using only the Neumann USM 69 in MS-Mode (cardiod M)...

Which microphones are you using? For
zB.
The Rhythm Strings Duo was very interesting. Was it the one recorded via the Tascam HS-P82 (internal pres) using only the Neumann USM 69 in MS-Mode (cardiod M)?

For a long time I recorded my piano with a pair of Beyer MC930's into an Audient Mico and actually liked the sound very much. But like a true Gear Slut, when this Millennia came up at a great price, I bought it and then upgraded my mics to a pair of Senn MKH8020's. Perhaps I have not figured out the best placement of the omni 8020's.

I had a sense from reading this forum, that the preamps in the Tascam are a little sweeter, "more musical" than the Millennia and that's my reason for researching the HS-P82.
Old 7th February 2018
  #58
Gear Addict
 

I have had the Millenia and got rid of it. It was boring. Lifeless. It’s strange actually because it was accurate minus life. I know that seems odd but it sounded odd to me. It’s like it took away from the microphone. There was just a flat lifeless quality to it.

The Tascam example above is not what I am getting. The transparency yes but not the harshness I am hearing. Don’t beat me up as I am not being critical I just label things as I my ears hear them and I label them for m own purpose. The preamps I’m the Tascam are not typical clouded colored pres. This sample sounds equalized I’m some manner because I am not getting the piercing highs (again my terms for my mind). The SD MixPre sounds nothing like the Tascam. The first thing you will hear is how quiet the preamps is. That is very impressive. Then, you will hear just a condensed, sound. Almost like recording at 16bit 44.1 versus 96k 24 bit. I think that is the best way to describe the difference between the two. It’s like watching 4K video on YouTube versus 1080p. That’s a good visual reference.

My hope is Sound Devices focus their attention on the pres and converters unless they just want the video dialogue and sound effects market. But...I beg them to make a decision to create a music device in this form factor with digital ins and outs and high end preamps and converters. Kashmir is a cute label, but we don’t need cute labels like Kashmir and Onyx and all that crap. Just make a music device out of what you have.
Old 7th February 2018
  #59
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Don S's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by supoUSA View Post
I have had the Millenia and got rid of it. It was boring. Lifeless. It’s strange actually because it was accurate minus life. I know that seems odd but it sounded odd to me. It’s like it took away from the microphone. There was just a flat lifeless quality to it.
.
I felt the same way when I first heard a Millennia. It was a 2 channel single space box rented by a local company coupled with a pair of Schoeps MK4's. Dull and lifeless.
I wound up buying a quad HV3-B unit that was made in 80's and it sounded different to my ears. A bit warmer maybe? The power supply is separate from the pre, but I'm not sure if it has anything to do with why I like the sound. The only thing I've heard that blows it away is the Pueblo.
Old 7th February 2018
  #60
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And till now no one mentioned what SD uses are preamp and AD/DA hardware.

Ah, BTW, in Swiss German "Kashmir" sounds like "no cops".
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