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Why does video editing software suck so deeply? Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 4 weeks ago
  #211
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrReid View Post
It finally dawned on me that David likely wants to sync external audio with camera scratch audio on the edit page without having to vertically increase the height of an audio track, i.e., dragging its lower edge lower.

...

These perceived limitations probably results from Resolves 'expectation' that a user will sync audio by other means, i.e., time code, auto-analysis of waveforms, etc. on the media page, BEFORE the user gets around to editing. There is a satisfying and good internal logic to this workflow, but it does prevent David from doing what he wants to do on the edit page.
Apologies if I missed something in the course of this thread, but why on earth would anyone want to manually sync audio in the timeline? Video is synced to 1/24th or 1/30th of a second; audio is synced to 1/48,000th. There's no way you could manually align anything longer than a minute without it drifting out of sync.

Auto-aligning by waveform (easy accomplished in Resolve & Premiere) is a great solution if you can divide your videos into individual pieces or movements. For syncing full concerts in one clip, you'd need cameras that can sync their frame rates to external clocks. Those cameras are very expensive.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #212
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Yannick's Avatar
 

Weird. My consumer Panasonic gx80 and the lowly f8 stay in sync for an entire 30min concert clip. I have not experienced drift in the order of a single frame.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Well maybe, maybe not. If so, it begs the question why the Linux community cannot make any software we want to use for our daily jobs.

Perhaps the lack of singular responsibility has something to do with it.

But I must say that this is very encouraging.
conversely, why can't MS give us an OS that isn't so resource intensive?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #214
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IMO the single most important NLE feature for editing music video is a sync protocol such as Resolve and PP offers. This forum is dedicated to audio concerns and given that fact let's come to grips with the assumption that most of us have a far superior audio capture, two mixing and mastering protocol than video editors will ever be able to approach. This advantage provides an opportunity to produce musical live performance videos that actually enhance the experience, instead of advancing muzzled audio.
I deliver to my atomos recorder L/R audio scratch tracks direct from FOH mix. I simultaneously multitrack from the digigrid/waves LV1 pres that I mix and master to sync in and replace the scratch tracks in video editing.
Perhaps I am overestimating the commercial importance of the sonic quality of music videos but the notion that it isn't necessary comes from folks that do not have the gear or skill to properly do the job. Today visual evidence of a band's ability to actually deliver in live performance is the key to selling concert tickets: too this end the audio quality is a lot more important than "Fusion generated" animated visual effects.
Hugh
Old 4 weeks ago
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
Perhaps I am overestimating the commercial importance of the sonic quality of music videos but the notion that it isn't necessary comes from folks that do not have the gear or skill to properly do the job. Today visual evidence of a band's ability to actually deliver in live performance is the key to selling concert tickets: too this end the audio quality is a lot more important than "Fusion generated" animated visual effects.
Hugh
A well-constructed summary of where we, as audio people, tend to enter the party. I'd venture that, since it is indeed a party, we should adopt the right mind-set to enjoy it fully, and add to the occasion !

A lot of our effort goes into rendering a naturalistic audio impression of a concert, whereas the experience of a concert video, with zooms and pans and multiple camera angles blows that conceit out of the water.

So maybe, for our audio to mesh more harmoniously with the hyped reality of the imagery, a case could be made that the audio should also bend towards being more impactful and 'exciting' ...in the way that advertising or feature films manipulate our attention with compression, expansion, effects etc.

I'm not suggesting that the goals of accurate capture and mixes should be thrown out, nor embrace the Loudness War ethos...but maybe our music video soundtracks should bow to the 'larger than life'or 'exciting' mode a little...so as to better complement the visuals ?

PS...I have no idea how to achieve this
Old 4 weeks ago
  #216
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We need to remember the driving force behind the downward journey audio recording has experienced over the past 10 years: over the top enhancement and/or outright electronic manufacture of audio to advance pretty faces that are short on talent constituted a musical fraud that the buying public has turned off. There is no better example of the importance of "meat and potato" video production today than country music. All sorts of high end professionally produced, expensive videos for country artists were all the rage 10/15 years ago: however today the most important visual delivery to sustain a members financial viability is the actual TV broadcast of the Grand Ole Opry. "Disney-fying" todays music videos does not necessarily sell concert tickets to todays skeptical buyer: a credible performance does.
Hugh
Old 4 weeks ago
  #217
For myself I am very happy with the audio quality of my music videos, since it's using a 100% analog signal path of carefully chosen eq and compressors on the way into the F8 + pro mastering I feel I can't do much better.

My video quality is another story, with the editing problem behind me I at least have time to focus on making it better. Waiting on the successor to the Zoom q8, every new video experiments with angles, need more lighting gear and a small stage etc.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #218
Anyone who plays live likely has hundreds of live videos online, recorded on a cellphone.
These are very popular with fans, and both promoters and potential audience members will watch these videos to evaluate a band’s live performance.
The level above that is multi-cam video, properly edited for interest, with decent audio. Ideally a multi-track audio recording that can be edited and mixed, or worst case scenario a stereo mix recorded at the FOH mixer.
The audio should be true to life, like a live radio performance or a live album.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Apologies if I missed something in the course of this thread, but why on earth would anyone want to manually sync audio in the timeline?
Separate sound recording system to video. No need to explain this. But there is no need to timecode lock, so manual sync in post remains the issue.

Quote:
Video is synced to 1/24th or 1/30th of a second; audio is synced to 1/48,000th. There's no way you could manually align anything longer than a minute without it drifting out of sync.
Most NLE software allows the audio tracks to slide in increments much finer than the video frame rate and the consistency of 48kHz clocks on cameras compared to external recorders is now so precise that you can maintain sync for at least an hour without having to re-align.

The only problems I've had with audio sync is when transcoding back to H264, if you choose variable frame rate, the audio sync gets mangled, constant frame rate seems to be fine and the way to go.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
conversely, why can't MS give us an OS that isn't so resource intensive?
Agreed. I've posted this elsewhere but it sums things up nicely about the problem.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #221
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Apologies if I missed something in the course of this thread, but why on earth would anyone want to manually sync audio in the timeline? Video is synced to 1/24th or 1/30th of a second; audio is synced to 1/48,000th. There's no way you could manually align anything longer than a minute without it drifting out of sync.

Auto-aligning by waveform (easy accomplished in Resolve & Premiere) is a great solution if you can divide your videos into individual pieces or movements. For syncing full concerts in one clip, you'd need cameras that can sync their frame rates to external clocks. Those cameras are very expensive.
You did miss something, although I don't think it was covered in this topic until just now. Video is slipped on a timeline per frame (some NLE's will allow a user to slip video on a subframe basis, but that introduces problems). Any NLE I've used allows audio to be slipped on per sample basis. Thus, syncing audio to video based on waveform is easy, though time-consuming. I'd prefer to use timecode and word clock to sync all video and audio devices, but that can get expensive, as you point out...

I shoot mainly concerts 1-2h long, and the worst drift I've seen between non-synced external audio and cam scratch audio with my gear is at most a frame. That's unacceptable, of course, but it is easily remedied with a few cuts and re-syncing.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #222
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
The only problems I've had with audio sync is when transcoding back to H264, if you choose variable frame rate, the audio sync gets mangled, constant frame rate seems to be fine and the way to go.
I had the same problems, variable frame rate was one of my first wtf moments.

One of the nice things about ffmpeg being a Swiss army knife command line tool is that it's easy to get a constant frame rate that matches the source video by setting the right flags and using two pass encoding.

You may be surprised how much video software uses ffmpeg libs, once I figured that out I decided to just use the native executable.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Agreed. I've posted this elsewhere but it sums things up nicely about the problem.
Let's not let this link go unnoticed. Worth reading, IMO.
Old 1 day ago
  #224
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Separate sound recording system to video. No need to explain this. But there is no need to timecode lock, so manual sync in post remains the issue.


Most NLE software allows the audio tracks to slide in increments much finer than the video frame rate and the consistency of 48kHz clocks on cameras compared to external recorders is now so precise that you can maintain sync for at least an hour without having to re-align.
I was more asking why anyone would want to manually sync when most NLE's can auto-sync by waveform. But I'm already eating those words; I'm in the process of editing video for a choral ensemble that couldn't be synced by Premiere or PluralEyes, and so I ended up manually syncing it by lining up the waveforms and then checking by eye. I'm guessing both programs were looking for transients to lock on to, and choral material doesn't have much of that.

For some reason I was under the impression that camera clocks weren't nearly as accurate, and that drift between the cameras vs. the audio system would be much more of a problem. Maybe I'm remembering some bad experience with older camera gear, but I do know that when I accidentally enabled the "correct for drift" option in PluralEyes, it produced a ton of distortion on my audio (which I assume means drift was being corrected). For reference, I'm shooting with Sony a7S2's.

While I'm glad to hear that people here aren't encountering major drift issues with their cameras, I still divide all my concerts into separate videos by song/movement, both for ease of viewing and to guarantee the video & audio stay in sync. I'm not losing any sleep over it, but someday I hope to work with cameras with genlock inputs (I think the Blackmagic Ursa Mini is the cheapest camera with that capability right now).
Old 1 day ago
  #225
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Syncing by waveforms is a starting point, but it is by no means exact. The biggest issue with camera audio is the time it takes for the sound to hit your camera. If you’re shooting a show and a camera is 35-40 feet out, your audio reference is already a frame behind.

I always will start by the waveform, but then finish by eye because that’s the only thing that ensures you’re even close.

-Ben
Old 1 day ago
  #226
Quote:
Originally Posted by fifthcircle View Post
The biggest issue with camera audio is the time it takes for the sound to hit your camera. If you’re shooting a show and a camera is 35-40 feet out, your audio reference is already a frame behind.
-Ben
After all my time spent aligning audio, you'd think I would have remembered that the same principles apply to video... looks like at the end of the day, we're all going to be syncing by eye.
Old 1 day ago
  #227
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cjogo's Avatar
Been shooting video since the 70's .. Using Power Director at present -- Mainly only shoot the video footage now -- hand the client the card -- no editing ...
Old 1 day ago
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
After all my time spent aligning audio, you'd think I would have remembered that the same principles apply to video... looks like at the end of the day, we're all going to be syncing by eye.
If you're chopping up a concert into songs and processing each individually, drift already is going to be drastically minimised compared with drift over a whole concert. Then just incorporate the delay correction between recorder and video camera's mics as a fixed offset*, and you likely won't even need to tweak by eye...

* unless your camera is roaming the stage also....?
Old 1 day ago
  #229
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I use Atomos ninja recorder/monitors for my two camera captures: all audio is generated externally and embedded into the Atomos video clips as a scratch track. Atomos provides an offset to accommodate matching the FR with audio capture when necessary: even very small increments. The main multi track two mix is easy and accurate to sync over the scratch track on a clip by clip basis. I have not experienced the number or type of problems described in this thread and IMO the reason for this is the functional advantage the Atomos recorder provides.
A quick up-date-- I just finished editing my first 24 min video with Davinci Resolve 14 (free version) and it is light years ahead of the horrendously expensive Premier pro I used for three years. My three year old dell PC with an Nvidia 750 GPU card worked pretty well for the simple editing and rendering I did.
Hugh
Old 1 day ago
  #230
Old 19 hours ago
  #231
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cjogo's Avatar
We sync shows to a 4 track audio ( direct PA / line from the bass . and stereo mix of room ) -- edit later ..
Old 16 hours ago
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fifthcircle View Post
I always will start by the waveform, but then finish by eye because that’s the only thing that ensures you’re even close.
-Ben
Spot on. And I always err on delaying the audio slightly further because "to camera audio" aligned can end up slightly advanced after transcoding.
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