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What was in the Subaru?
Old 19th February 2007
  #1
Talking What was in the Subaru?

Thought you Slutz might enjoy seeing part of the rig I went out with on Friday. No complaints about the gear on this gig! Yes, that really is a set of eight DPA 4006TL's and no, they're not all mine. Most folks will recognize the rack gear, but for the record, that's two Millennia HV-3D eight-channel mic preamps and two Prism Sound ADA-8XL eight channel converter sets for a total of 16 identically nice input channels. Why 16 channels when you only see eight mics? I was making a recording to compare Trinnov's surround array technology with my favorite OCT tree setup, so I needed enough channels for both. More later, I promise.

David
Attached Thumbnails
What was in the Subaru?-racks-008cc-small.jpg   What was in the Subaru?-trinnov-008cc-small.jpg  
Old 19th February 2007
  #2
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Can you explain the mic array?
Old 19th February 2007
  #3
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Harley-OIART's Avatar
 

Potentially very cool thread (it already is actually.)

Please do discuss the mic array, "nerdy" details welcome.
Old 19th February 2007
  #4
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Old 19th February 2007
  #5
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Remoteness's Avatar
Wow, tell us more!

Let's make this a "best of RPIAM&LR" tag thread!
Old 19th February 2007
  #6
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Wow...(drool)...

Couple of questions: What format did you record to (DAW, HD recorder..), and, could you explain that mic array?

Congrats, really nice, compact, high quality, high $$$ setup heh

L.G.
Old 19th February 2007
  #7
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blaugruen7's Avatar
doesnt the preamps and the converters run too hot with no space in between?
Old 19th February 2007
  #8
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Jim vanBergen's Avatar
 

Call me stupid...

I totally don't understand that mic array. Teach me, bro- I want to understand. The Prisms and HV3D-s I know....NIIIIIIICE rig. Was this a demo thing? With the literature on top, it looks like a convention display...
Old 19th February 2007
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berolzheimer View Post
Can you explain the mic array?
I think I saw something like that at AES for surround recording...

Of course, I'm probably talking out of the back of my array!
Old 19th February 2007
  #10
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2leod's Avatar
 

Just did a Google search...
Old 19th February 2007
  #11
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Thanks 2leod...
Old 19th February 2007
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blaugruen7 View Post
doesnt the preamps and the converters run too hot with no space in between?
I was thinking the same thing.
Old 19th February 2007
  #13
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Remoteness's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robobo1 View Post
Thanks 2leod...
Diddo!
Old 19th February 2007
  #14
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2leod's Avatar
 

No worries.

I'm just glad I wasn't blowing smoke...
Old 19th February 2007
  #15
Now that I've got your attention...

...let me give some quick answers to the initial questions.

The mic array in question is part of Trinnov's "Surround Recording Platform". I'll talk more about that later, but somebody already posted a link to their website above.

Yes, the first photo looks a bit like a convention layout. But I took it myself, especially for you folks. The glossy literature on top was just to show the mic bracket and surround processor, which I didn't have at the time of the photo.

On heat management: For lack of anything larger, I put the gear into my normal 4-space rack bags, which I normally run half or 3/4 full. Bad idea! Way too much power in something that's only slightly less insulated than a soft-sided picnic cooler. The Millennia's didn't get too terribly hot, because they have serious venting on the sides, and there was a gap there for the hot air to escape. But the Prism boxes -- OMG! By the end of the gig, the front panels were too hot to touch comfortably. I really have to give Prism Sound a lot of credit here, because the converters didn't hickup at all. I remember the first-generation 8-channel Apogee converter sets, which would certainly have quit working under similar conditions. But don't try this at home, folks!

I recorded directly to Sequoia 9, running on a Carillon 2.8GHz P4 rackmount PC. The converter sets were interfaced via AES/EBU on Lynx II cards. That accounts for another 4-space rack, and there was one more rack containing a Surge-X power conditioner and a Haffler power amp for my monitors.

More to come...


David
Old 19th February 2007
  #16
Why I was doing this

The announcement I've pasted below explains the reason I was making this recording. Colorado-based Slutz please note the listening sessions scheduled for late March. -- David


AES-COLORADO ANNOUNCES MEETINGS FOR FEBRUARY, MARCH, AND APRIL, 2007!

Please join the Colorado AES section in February and March for "listen and learn" sessions on new surround recording technology from Trinnov Audio. Trinnov's HSR microphone array and SRP audio processor enable "high spatial resolution" surround recording of live events. The Trinnov technology synthesizes a single point surround microphone with up to fifth-order directionality from an array of highly accurate omnidirectional microphones. Trinnov's Optimizer platform allows surround recordings in one format (e.g. ITU 5.1) to be "remapped" for playback in other multichannel configurations.

Trinnov

On Friday, February 16, David Rick will use the Trinnov Omni-8 array (and also a five-mic OCT array for comparison) to record a "live to picture" performance by the Mont Alto Motion Picture Orchestra at Loveland's historic Rialto Theater. This event is a rare screening of the classic silent film, "Chicago", with live musical accompianment by the Mont Alto MPO. AES members are invited to attend and listen to the unamplified live performance for later comparison with the recordings. This is a public event, and admission is $8. Doors open at 6:30, and the show starts at 7:00. AES members will be welcome to examine the recording rig after the performance. The Rialto Theater is at 228 E. Fourth Street in downtown Loveland.

Rialto Theater

Mont Alto Motion Picture Orchestra

On Thursday, March 29, Airshow Mastering and Wind Over the Earth (“WOTE”) will host a listening session and lecture by Curt Hoyt of Trinnov Audio. Airshow's surround mastering room will be open for listening sessions, and the meeting will be held in the adjacent WOTE demo room. Tentative schedule is as follows:

7:00 PM Introduction to Trinnov's surround recording technologies by Curt Hoyt (WOTE)
7:30 PM Listening Session One (Airshow Studio C)
8:00 PM Listening Session Two (Airshow Studio C)
8:30 PM Listening Session Three (Airshow Studio C)

Sign up for listening slots will be "first come, first served". Airshow and WOTE are at 3063 Sterling Circle in Boulder.

Airshow Mastering

Wind Over the Earth

The following evening, Friday, March 30, join us for a demonstration of Trinnov's remapping technology at the Denver Museum of Nature and Science's Gates Planetarium. The Planetarium’s 16.5 surround sound system will provide an interesting challenge for Trinnov's remapping technology, which is based on Ambisonic principles. Curt Hoyt from Trinnov will be on hand for the presentation, and for your questions.

Social: 6:30
Presentation: 7:00 pm
Denver Museum of Nature & Science
2001 Colorado Boulevard Denver, Colorado 80205
DMNS Directions and Parking
Old 20th February 2007
  #17
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Steve Smith's Avatar
 

Please somebody tell me that these pieces work... because this may be some of the coolest stuff I have seen in a long long time.....
Old 21st February 2007
  #18
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I'm intigued by this product, but more importantly how it sounds. I stopped at the Holophone booth at AES and had a listen to the H3-D demo. Stuff was whizzing around my head in the headphones, yet it struck me as cool but a little gimmicky. If i'm not mistaken the 6 XLRs from that unit simpy feed into a console or whatever. I am interested in the claims that the frequency content on the Trinnov system gets decoded spatially, my best guess is through triangulation between the outer array and the center mic. Perhaps the remaining mic near the two rear ones is for the low frequency content, or to better pinpoint the triangulation?

My gut tells me that there is a latent market for consumer surround recordings, like an "Unplugged" live to disc session in a great sounding space, where the listener hears themself in the middle of their favorite group, but that consumer level surround systems will not take off until someone develops cool looking, individual wireless headgear to get around untreated room acoustic limitations, and living space aesthetics. I'm also not sure how the Trinnov system would fare with a typical 5 piece band.
Old 22nd February 2007
  #19
Trinnov array technology

Let me explain a bit about how the Trinnov array works. Pretty much everything I know about it comes from Trinnov's published technical papers. If you want to read these, click here:

AES Preprint Search

and enter Laborie in the author field. If you only read one, I would recommend preprint #6116 because it describes their eight-channel commercial array. Preprint #6231 is very nearly the same paper, but describes a 16-channel array.

Most of you know how Ambiasonics works: you can decompose the sound field at a point into four components (X,Y,Z,W) corresponding to 3 figure-eight mics pointed in orthogonal directions, plus an omni mic. You can do this with actual physical microphones if you want, or you can synthesize those mic patterns from other patterns, as is done in the SoundField tetrahedral array. Once you've done this, you can matrix the XYZW signals to steer the array in different directions.

The vast majority of all directional recording mics are classified as "first order cardioids" because they get their directionality by measuring the difference in sound pressure between two closely-spaced points. This can be done with a dual-diaphragm mic, or with a single-diaphragm capsule that has a special acoustical phase-shift network at the rear. This acoustical network is called an "all pass network" because it should only change the phase, not the amplitude. Omnidirectional mics measure at only one point; in this parlance, they are called "zeroth order microphones".

The trouble with conventional (first-order) ambiasonics is that the polar patterns aren't narrow enough, so there's a lot of crosstalk into adjacent speakers. Suppose we wanted something like Ambiasonics, but decomposed into more distinct directions? We'd need find a way to create more directional microphones.

What if we utilized the sound pressure differences at multiple points? A shotgun mic does this (but rather badly) and the result is a more directional pattern. So a third-order microphone would measure sound at three closely-spaced points, a four-order mic at four, and so forth. The geometry of the measurement locations and the way those measurements are combined determine the actual pattern. There's a tutorial paper on the Trinnov web site that has really great color pictures of high-order figure-eight patterns. If you have a broadband connection, you should definately download it and have a look.

Traditionally, researchers have used linear or circular transducer arrays, and combined their outputs with some kind of signal processing. Now that Digital Signal Processing has gotten so cheap, it's possible to steer the pattern electronically, and to generate patterns with much lower sidelobes than traditional shotgun patterns. That's because you can make much better digital all-pass networks than you can make acoustical ones.

What Trinnov wanted to do was make a microphone array (plus processor) that would simulate five virtual microphones having exactly the (asymmetric!) polar patterns needed to localize sound correctly in a 5 channel ITU speaker arrangement. If Trinnov had taken the conventional approach, they would have used 32 or 48 mics in a circle. That would have made the signal processing quite straight forward, but who can afford 32 DPA omni's?! Instead, they used fewer mics, and more complex signal processing. They also placed the mics in a sophisticated way, recognizing that they needed higher angular resolution towards the front than towards the rear. In this way, they were able to make a commercially viable array using only eight microphones.

You can think of the Trinnov signal processing as a 8 x 5 matrix mixer, but instead of having a knob at every matrix point, it's got a Finite Impulse Response digital filter creating the right frequency-dependent time delay to make the array work. The design of those FIR filters reduces to a giant matrix optimization problem. At every frequency, the design software attempts to combine the mic outputs in a way that best recreates the desired panning law, but without raising the noise floor too much. These FIR filters can also compensate for the non-ideal off-axis frequency response of the omni mics in the array. Trinnov's SRP processor allows you to change the panning law to make the resulting sound stage wider or narrower.

The Trinnov literature has 3-D bubble diagrams of the resulting virtual polar patterns for each channel. There are also bubble diagrams representing actual polar pattern measurements made in an anechoic chamber. It's really remarkable how well they agree.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording
Old 2nd March 2007
  #20
Gig report, part 1 (loading in)

I'd been waiting to get the gig pix from Leslie Gaston before posting a gig report. Now that I have them, here goes...

The Rialto Theater's technical manager has asked me to load in no earlier than 2:00 PM. Warmup/soundcheck is at 4:00 with a hard stop at 5:00, so it's gonna be tight. I know the venue pretty well: I've worked there many times, and I was the acoustical consultant when the theater was rennovated about a dozen years ago. But I stop in the day before the gig, I find there are new sound and light boards taking up most of the technical area behind first-floor seating. Between the boards is a small table with enough room for my racks. By pushing the light board back a bit, there's just enough room for my flat-screen monitors. I decide that I'll start with my tree near the center of the first row, since theres a good bit of open floor between there and the orchestra pit. That's worked for me in the past. I send my crew members a channel list and task list by email. (The channel list attached to this post.)

I decide to build up the tree in advance to save time. It can go in the Subaru on top of everything else. Using AEA hardware, it's all pretty easy until I try to mount Trinnov's horseshoe mic bracket. It's intended to go on a stand, not a tree, and all the centerline mic connectors are interfering with the front-rear bar of the tree. Good thing to find out now, instead of at the hall! After some scrounging, I find enough hardware to raise the Trinnov bracket about three inches above the crossbar so the connectors will clear.

It's 55 Farenheit when I leave home at 1:30, but ten minutes later I'm driving in a complete whiteout. That's life in Colorado. I arrive on time anyway, but my crew is missing, so I back up the Subaru and unload it myself, thankful that everything is packaged so I can handle it alone. There's a message waiting for me at the box office: the piano delivery is running behind. Can't do much about that about that now -- got my own gear to hump. Kevin arrives, and I set him to pulling the snake, while I start on the racks.

Leslie arrives at 2:30 looking sheepish. She'd taken a wrong turn and gotten half way to Boulder before figuring it out. I send her up to the balcony with a pair of MKH-800's intended for hall ambience. She discovers my clamps won't fit the balcony railing so we decide to hang the mics. We drop them a couple of feet below the front of the balcony, dividing the width of the hall into thirds. They are set to figure-8, nulls facing front.

more to come...
Attached Thumbnails
What was in the Subaru?-rialto-entrance-small.jpg   What was in the Subaru?-poster-small.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: doc Chicago channel list.doc (46.5 KB, 229 views)

Last edited by David Rick; 2nd March 2007 at 07:16 PM.. Reason: Added channel list as attachment
Old 2nd March 2007
  #21
Gig report part 2 (more trouble with the tree)

A bit of background before I continue: Our goal in making this recording was to compare a Trinnov array with one of the best conventional surround arrays (OCT), recording acoustic instruments in a venue with natural reverb. To make this happen on three weeks notice, I arranged to record an already-scheduled performance of the Mont Alto Motion Picture Orchestra, playing for a silent film showing at the Rialto Theater. So it wasn't really our gig: we were guests of venue.

As you can see in the photo, the recording tree is a pretty substantial object. But I had venue blueprints, and I knew we could keep it low enough that it wouldn't cast shadows on the screen. I also figured there wouldn't be any real problem with sight lines, because I wasn't expecting a big audience. In my experience, when you put up a mic stand in advance, the audience simply adapts by seating themselves where it's not blocking their view.

Unfortunately, the venue management didn't see it that way. They wanted "no bad seats", even if those seats were going to be empty. As guests of the venue, we didn't have any standing to argue. But that created a big problem: my AEA stand was simply too tall to comply with the requirement. After a few moments of panic, we realized that putting the stand in the pit would lower it several feet. But it then be practically on top of the musicians, and the soundstage and direct-to-reverberant ratio would be completely different than my plan.

One good thing about an OCT array is that it's very easy to change its recording angle. You just move the side-facing hypercardioids in or out. If you're using rear-facing mics, you move them the same amount. So it didn't take me very long to reconfigure the tree to make the best of a bad situation. I figured the reverberant pickup on the main tree would still be inadequate, but I had a pair of figure-8 ambience mics available to solve that in post. So I changed OCT spacing from 80 cm to 40 cm, raised the tree as high out of the pit as they'd let me, and hoped for the best.

The musicians arrived right in the middle of this, and they weren't particularly thrilled with the idea of sharing a very tight pit with my AEA stand and tree. But once they realized the situation, they adapted as best they could. I'd planned to spot-mic the piano, but not only was there no longer time, there was no longer room!

Next installment: line check
Attached Thumbnails
What was in the Subaru?-tree-closeup-small.jpg   What was in the Subaru?-moving-tree-small.jpg   What was in the Subaru?-tree-screen-small.jpg  

Last edited by David Rick; 7th March 2007 at 02:12 AM.. Reason: corrected OCT spacing numbers
Old 6th March 2007
  #22
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wyndrock's Avatar
i seriously hope that i never have to learn to use this complicated an array for any reason... it's scary.

im thankful to those that have learned though. it has kept me from having to do so.

myself not being a fan of surround mixes, i shy away from complication in recording. i like the simpler stereo mix, which is much simpler to achieve and in most cases is just as pleasing a listening experience. give me a nice m/s or jecklin recording any day. i feel that recording has gotten way to complicated over the years.

all respect to those that are doing this, however, i'm not one to get too excited about the more complicated techniques. i'm sure that others feel this way as well. its nice to know that someone out there is willing to get this deep into acoustic theory, so as to be qualified to deliver this level of recording. there may be a day in which i *will* become interested in this angle, and it could be very nice to have years of others' experiences to research, for the advancement of the craft.

thanks.
Old 7th March 2007
  #23
Gig report part 3 (sorting it out)

The good thing about splitting a rig like this into subracks is that you can still load in while your crew is lost in a snowstorm. The bad thing is that you then have to stitch all those subracks together at the venue. There's a lot that can go wrong. In this situation, mass interconnects would have been a very good thing.

When the musicians started warming up, we had things pretty much together. We just didn't have the right things together! From looking at the Millennia signal indicator LEDs, I could see we had all our analog signals. The meters on the Prism converters looked about like I expected: eight signals at identical levels from the Trinnov array, and five active channels on the the bottom unit.

But inside my recording software, I was missing several channels. The first thing I noticed was that I only had one ambience channel, which made no sense because they were both coming in on the same AES pair. I pulled up the Lynx mixer applet, and noticed that there was an extra live channel next to my OCT C input. That's normally LFE, which I wasn't using. Also, I seemed to have a clocking problem, because two of the cards had switched to internal clocking. Then it clicked: the digital breakout cables to two of the Lynx cards were swapped.

Meanwhile, Kevin and Leslie were staring at the back of the preamp and converter racks when one of them suddenly said "Hey, the Millennia outputs run right to left, and the Prism inputs run left to right!" Sure enough, everything was scramble-wired. Assuming I'd gotten everything to hard disk, I'd have sorted out the OCT channels in post. But the Trinnov omni's are all in nearly the same place and have identical meter readings. The spatial decoding never would have worked, and we'd have had no idea why. Good catch, very good catch.

Once we'd realized that all the channels were scrambled, there was a pregnant pause while Kevin and I just looked at one another, each expecting the other to fix things. "Why don't you just reorder them in software?" Kevin finally asked. Coming from him, it was a perfectly reasonable question: Kevin Gross is the inventor of CobraNet. To him, all audio routing is just a simple matter of a few keystrokes. Not to me. On my workstation, every channel has eight different names. There's what I name the track (e.g. "OCT LS"), what its associated file is called ("Chicago_T004_13M24.wav"), what it's called when you're assigning mono record inputs to tracks in Sequoia ("Lynx II 1L (2)"), what the playback destination is called in Sequoia ("Lynx II 1 (2)"), what the Lynx mixer assigns as the WDM driver channel for output ("Record 1") , for input ("PB1"), and what the Lynx mixer calls the actual physical channels ("DigIn1L" and "DigOut1L"). I'm sure I got some of these names wrong above, but you get the drift. I'd spent about an hour an a half getting this all configured earlier in the week, and I was not about to change it. Kevin repatched the converter snakes.

photo 1: Comparing the Sequoia and Lynx mixers to solve routing problems
photo 2: Kevin repatching the hard way
photo 3: Sequoia track window
Attached Thumbnails
What was in the Subaru?-mixer-screen-small.jpg   What was in the Subaru?-sorting-channels-small.jpg   What was in the Subaru?-track-screen-small.jpg  
Old 9th March 2007
  #24
Great thread! Seeing Subaru in the title clued me into the fact that it would have to be taking place in Colorado.

What was in my Subaru? A couple years ago it was a porta potty traveling at 60mph in the opposite direction in the Boulder Canyon. I am lucky to be alive!

I hope I can see this rig in action sometime and I'll try to make it to the AES meetings!
Edwin
Old 10th March 2007
  #25
Gig report part 4

Often when I do live recordings, I set up in the green room, or some backstage dressing room. At the Rialto Theater, there's a musicians' room under the stage that I've often used. Had I used it this time, I would have run my mic cables through a door into the orchestra pit. But that would have created a light leak right under the movie screen. So I decided to put my rig next to the sound and light boards at the rear of the hall. That way, I'd get to see the movie! I'd also be listening to the hall sound, rather than my rough mix, which would be interesting for later comparisons. But I did need a way to check my array placement for sound quality, and I've never been very successful at judging imaging over headphones. So I put a pair of Tannoy monitors on a table in the lobby during the rehearsal/soundcheck and pulled them before the performance. A bonus was that the musicians met in the lobby after the rehearsal to decide where to have dinner, I was able to play them some recorded excerpts before they left.

We'd only recorded a little of the rehearsal due to our late start and the time spent solving the signal routing problems. But a quick LCR to stereo mix done on my Mackie 1402VLZ (not in the record path!) convinced me that the in-pit stand placement wasn't nearly as bad as I'd feared. What got short shrift was any kind of a level check. I'd set my levels quite conservatively for the rehearsal; without a lot of recorded material to check, I decided to leave the gains where they were.

By the time the audience arrived, we'd dressed all the cables, pulled the lobby monitors, noted all the channel gains, and ordered in pizza to share with the venue staff. Although I've been recording straight to hard disk for several years, I still don't have the level of confidence in a computer that I once had in my DTRS machines. So I brought along a Sound Devices 744T with the intent of recording my LCR channels for safety. But given that Murphy had been having his way with my signal routing, I made the decision not to patch in the Sound Devices deck. I'd been running tests on the rig all week, I now had it back together correctly, and I wasn't going to change anything at the last moment. When the lights went down, I crossed my fingers and hit the record button.

Fortunately, there were no further problems. Running with second-generation Lynx WDM drivers instead of CPU-hungry ASIO drivers, Sequoia was loafing, recording 14 tracks at 24/96 on my 4-year-old XP machine. Colored waveforms scrolled slowly across the track window, and I dropped markers whenever the music changed. Mostly I watched the movie, in which a gorgeous but unfaithful housewife murders her boyfriend, and is acquitted in court due to media frenzy and a corrupt criminal justice system. After about 70 minutes, it was time for intermission, a reel change, and a break for the musicians, who'd been playing continuously.

Checking my levels, I realized that I'd been way too conservative: Most channels were peaking at -14 dBFS. I was concerned that the Prism converters might not sound their best at such a low setting. So with Leslie calling out the numbers, I bumped the Millennia preamp gains up by 9 dB. We noted the changes on the track sheet for later reference. The other thing worrying me was that the converter rack was getting hot. Really hot. I was really kicking myself for packing the two borrowed Prism ADA-8XR's tightly in one rack bag instead of doing something more sensible. But I'd run them that way overnight on two occasions earlier in the week, so I figured they'd hold up. Now you know why they call it "burn in"!

It turned out the musicians had been sandbagging me. Or they were like horses smelling the barn as the second reel started. Either way, they played a lot more dynamically, and I was now worried my levels were too hot. But although several trumpet attacks hit red, nothing is audibly distorted in the resulting wave files. Nor does the first half sound grainy or noisy, despite the low levels. In fact, it sounds very sweet, perhaps a bit better than the second half. It's hard to be certain though, because two hours of continuous playing takes its toll on the musicians. Between the less-than optimal gain settings and the outright thermal abuse, I'm now quite a believer in these Prism converters. Too bad independent recordists like me can't easily afford them. But it's clear why a high end facility like Airshow Mastering would choose them: they're flexible, they sound great, and they're completely bombproof.

The show ended at 1:55 cumulative recording time, comfortably under the 2 Gig file size limit. Several AES members had come for the performance and stayed around to help with load-out. No snarled cables with this crowd! The piano movers loaded out their period-accurate Fischer upright. I packed up the Subaru (only I know how it all fits!) and sent the Trinnov array off with Leslie for a environmental ambience session the next day. I drove home, stacked the equipment in my production room, and was in bed by midnight.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording

photo: Pianist Rodney Sauer assembles historical movie scores and leads the Mont Alto Motion Picture Orchestra
Attached Thumbnails
What was in the Subaru?-ensemble-small.jpg  
Old 11th March 2007
  #26
Gear Nut
 
DonM's Avatar
 

D:
Thanks for this thread. The way you've written it, it seems like I was there!

Great information and troubleshooting on-the-fly descriptions - I'm sure we've all had those moments, but it's good to know I'm not alone!

Again great thread.

-D
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