The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Tags:

Has anyone tried the Sonosax SX-R4+ yet ? Recorders, Players & Tape Machines
Old 1 week ago
  #31
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by weltarm View Post
Can you post the entire email here? I'm certainly interested in how they'd describe the AD stage.
Weltarm, It made me happy when I was able to contribute something yesterday - for a minute

My note,

Dear Sonosax,

-I am hoping Sonosax would provide your thoughts. I recently offered my ‘take’ on how your dual AD designed functions and am asking you if you might read my description and comment on how correct or wrong my description is.

"If you thought about what a normal mic pre's gain would be compared to line, the RX4+ has a 20 db gain switch that you can switch on top of that. The signal then goes to the AD/with the 134db SN. When you set your file length to 32 bit, the 24bit signal resides in that 'POOL'

I think the knobs might go up to plus 70db but that's post AD"

I hope you might let me know ‘how close I got it’ or not


here is the complete response:

Hi Chris,

This is not how I would describe the SX-R4+ dual-ADC works, but your description is correct:

•the +20dB is applied in the analog stage (as well as the high pass filter first order)

•the analog signal is then split to two ADC converters, with two different gains
•the signal is then switched in digital domain, to get a total of 135dB of dynamic

The signal can be recorded as a 24 or 32-bit stream. There is however no quality loss, as 24-bit is enough to encode a 135dB dynamic stream.

Best regards,

Sonosax


AD8+ recording

Vienna Home by PlantLady Rec Services | Free Listening on SoundCloud

Last edited by emenelton; 1 week ago at 09:26 PM..
Old 1 week ago
  #32
Lives for gear
 
Plush's Avatar
I do post to educate as well as to suggest techniques when people ask. Inevitably, some people will not believe what I post.

The description above from Emenelton above is in no way correct and he does not understand what Sonosax wrote to him.

Also, the description in the correspondence from Sonosax is written imprecisely.

When they say, "the signal is then switched in digital domain, to get a total of 135dB of dynamic," that bullet point has nothing to do with the prior bullet point that references "the +20dB is applied in the analog stage."

Continue posting inaccuracies all you want.

You are BS'ing us here. You would never have posted what you did if you had even a basic understanding of gain structure.
Old 1 week ago
  #33
AB3
Lives for gear
 

I wrote to Sonosax, but no response so far. Maybe Jacques is busy.
Old 5 days ago
  #34
Gear Addict
 

Anyways to close out my involvement because I was part of this thread ; to clarify in case, in the future some one wants to know if they can hear a Sonosax recording.

The link referenced in that Decca Thread

is a Sonosax AD8+ 7 channel plus 2 direct total 9 track recording

Vienna Home by PlantLady Rec Services | Free Listening on SoundCloud
Old 4 days ago
  #35
Lives for gear
 

I get weary more easily these days over playing with numbers, generally at the expense of veracity. In this case, the use of gain switching to improve the apparent "dynamic range" of audio transmission systems.

I am old enough to remember one of the earlier implementations in recording, namely the 3M DynaTrack system, which involve a 2-track recorder (with the ground-breaking isoloop transport. This offered increased allowable input range by recording a second track 15dB lower than the other, and a scheme for "noiselessly" switching between the two on replay. (Now available in the plastic shaver of your choice ...). Superceded by the Dolby-A system (which is gain switching in a different form ...)

What any gain-switching (companding) system does NOT change is the instantaneous signal to noise ratio of the transmission medium; the art lies in concealing artefacts from the gain switching, which can currently only be assessed subjectively. But it does offer the greater convenience of "I can take anything you can throw at me" which is certainly handy in the field, when recordists are trying to deal with many other problems.

When most acoustic transducers can themselves only offer a natural dynamic of about 120dB, and real world input circuitry can only do the same (without resorting to cryogenics and operating the whole chain - including the performers? -closer to absolute zero!), it seems to me like there is more than a touch of navel-gazing involved in discussing such single-parameter assessments of the quality of a recording chain.
Old 4 days ago
  #36
This parallel converter technology is somewhat old news now. The original RME UFX did the same thing on their preamp channels, using an 8 channel converter and splitting the signal from the 4 preamps to achieve a slightly higher dynamic range.

This functionality is standard in most all modern converters, but not always used for the obvious budget concerns. The new UA Apollos do the same thing to achieve a similar dynamic range as the Sonosax.

I personally have never recorded in an environment that warranted a 135dB noise floor converter. Nothing short of an anechoic chamber could reach that. Then again, overkill is fun.
Old 4 days ago
  #37
AB3
Lives for gear
 

Anyone have any battery recommendations? How long do they last?
THANKS!
Old 4 days ago
  #38
Gear Maniac
 

That is a damn good result. What mics were use and configured. Any processing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by emenelton View Post
Anyways to close out my involvement because I was part of this thread ; to clarify in case, in the future some one wants to know if they can hear a Sonosax recording.

The link referenced in that Decca Thread

is a Sonosax AD8+ 7 channel plus 2 direct total 9 track recording

Vienna Home by PlantLady Rec Services | Free Listening on SoundCloud
Old 4 days ago
  #39
Gear Maniac
 

What and where is the best price? Google show $5700 - but Euro model is desired. Any idea who has the best pricing? PM me if you do t wish to post
Old 3 days ago
  #40
Gear Addict
 
whippoorwill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rumleymusic View Post

I personally have never recorded in an environment that warranted a 135dB noise floor converter. Nothing short of an anechoic chamber could reach that. Then again, overkill is fun.
When I record live music I often leave 12-20dB of headroom for anything to happen without clipping. Especially in the second half of a set, musicians often play louder. So that 135 becomes 115dB which is much more normal. If I’m recording in M/s the s mic will probably have peaks 10-15dB lower again, so if the convertor has 115dB, we’re now down to 80dB or 100dB with the 135db design...
Still, most music is probably represented more than adequately within around 60db in the final playback process!
Old 3 days ago
  #41
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HelenaBzg View Post
That is a damn good result. What mics were use and configured. Any processing?
Thanks

4006a l/r 4006 tlx ctr.

The tree was 11’ Up 26” spacing 1-2’ behind

The l/r were pointing out towards the ctr of th vn/celli fields

The tym had a beyer 260 with a standard re-ribbon
Old 3 days ago
  #42
Lives for gear
 
Plush's Avatar
While the so-called “gain-ranging” design was at first poo-poo’ed by classical recordists in the early 1990’s, now the use of two (better) converters is implemented in a more elegant design manner. Also, I contend, the changing over between converters cannot be heard in the Sonosax design.

I agree that the 135dB dynamic range capability is not the main reason to move towards Sonosax.

Instead consider the benefits of the incredible mic amps and conversion.

I say it is the best.
Old 3 days ago
  #43
Gear Head
Nailed the natural balance between all the solos in the Mahler - it's great! Esp the WWs. Impressed

>> Thanks

>> 4006A l/r 4006 tlx ctr.

>> The tree was 11’ Up 26” spacing 1-2’ behind

>> The l/r were pointing out towards the ctr of th vn/celli fields

>> The tym had a beyer 260 with a standard re-ribbon

Last edited by Klimermonk; 3 days ago at 03:36 PM.. Reason: Quoted text got left out
Old 3 days ago
  #44
AB3
Lives for gear
 

As I understand it, the only difference is the firmware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HelenaBzg View Post
What and where is the best price? Google show $5700 - but Euro model is desired. Any idea who has the best pricing? PM me if you do t wish to post
Old 3 days ago
  #45
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klimermonk View Post
Nailed the natural balance between all the solos in the Mahler - it's great! Esp the WWs. Impressed

>> Thanks

>> 4006A l/r 4006 tlx ctr.

>> The tree was 11’ Up 26” spacing 1-2’ behind

>> The l/r were pointing out towards the ctr of th vn/celli fields

>> The tym had a beyer 260 with a standard re-ribbon
Appreciate your comments more than........

on the Sym No 3 1st mvt the last two A/B’s between the tutti’s are a copy and paste from the first and second A/B’s
It’s not actually how the symphony is supposed to go.
Old 3 days ago
  #46
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AB3 View Post
Anyone have any battery recommendations? How long do they last?
THANKS!
After reading through the following thread on JWsound, I picked up the Remote Audio MEON Hi-Q 49Wh.

Remote Audio MEON Hi-Q batteries - Equipment - JWSOUNDGROUP

I've run it through a few cycles and find it to be a very, very good battery. I guess it's as good as the pricer Audioroot version, which apparently uses the same cells.

The 48Wh pack fits squarely inside the R4+. I'm getting a little over 8 hours recording 2ch with P48 engaged and about about 11 running 2ch line in with P48 disengaged.

I've ordered the Audioroot right angle battery cup to run one of the 98Wh batteries externally. If I understand correctly, when the external DC source is depleted, the machine switches to the internal source.

As I noted above, the power options on this machine are excellent. In addition to their long life, the 2504 Li-Ion packs are smart and communicate with the R4+ about time remaining. It's apparently very accurate. I have the Audioroot eSMART mono charger and it even reads the battery's temperature. I have little use for such data, but it's an indication of the level of tech built-in and available.

The more I use this recorder the more I love it. I've been running it with a custom Rens Heijnis 15V mike preamp, a compact version of the MPB-502, inside a backpack and control everything from the WIFI app. Everything is compact, light and flexible. Sound quality is supreme.

A few unorganized impressions about the R4+:

1) Build quality is excellent. Better than the Nagra Seven, as good as the SD 7XX series.
2) Headphone amp and its attendant DAC are superb and seem perfectly matched with the Sennheiser HD-25s.
3) The machine powers on and off instantly. Compared to the Nagra Seven I used, the difference is night and day.
4) The R4+'s screen is small and is very hard to read in daylight. I do hope SAX offers an upgrade option in the future.
5) The preamps and ADC are as good as anything I've heard. Sound is effortless, transparent and detailed. In short, the machine does what it should do: present an unencumbered capture of the energy being translated from a mike's capsule.
Old 3 days ago
  #47
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by weltarm View Post
After reading through the following thread on JWsound, I picked up the Remote Audio MEON Hi-Q 49Wh.

Remote Audio MEON Hi-Q batteries - Equipment - JWSOUNDGROUP

I've run it through a few cycles and find it to be a very, very good battery. I guess it's as good as the pricer Audioroot version, which apparently uses the same cells.

The 48Wh pack fits squarely inside the R4+. I'm getting a little over 8 hours recording 2ch with P48 engaged and about about 11 running 2ch line in with P48 disengaged.

I've ordered the Audioroot right angle battery cup to run one of the 98Wh batteries externally. If I understand correctly, when the external DC source is depleted, the machine switches to the internal source.

As I noted above, the power options on this machine are excellent. In addition to their long life, the 2504 Li-Ion packs are smart and communicate with the R4+ about time remaining. It's apparently very accurate. I have the Audioroot eSMART mono charger and it even reads the battery's temperature. I have little use for such data, but it's an indication of the level of tech built-in and available.

The more I use this recorder the more I love it. I've been running it with a custom Rens Heijnis 15V mike preamp, a compact version of the MPB-502, inside a backpack and control everything from the WIFI app. Everything is compact, light and flexible. Sound quality is supreme.

A few unorganized impressions about the R4+:

1) Build quality is excellent. Better than the Nagra Seven, as good as the SD 7XX series.
2) Headphone amp and its attendant DAC are superb and seem perfectly matched with the Sennheiser HD-25s.
3) The machine powers on and off instantly. Compared to the Nagra Seven I used, the difference is night and day.
4) The R4+'s screen is small and is very hard to read in daylight. I do hope SAX offers an upgrade option in the future.
5) The preamps and ADC are as good as anything I've heard. Sound is effortless, transparent and detailed. In short, the machine does what it should do: present an unencumbered capture of the energy being translated from a mike's capsule.
excellent report
Old 3 days ago
  #48
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by emenelton View Post
Thanks

4006a l/r 4006 tlx ctr.

The tree was 11’ Up 26” spacing 1-2’ behind

The l/r were pointing out towards the ctr of th vn/celli fields

The tym had a beyer 260 with a standard re-ribbon
Just listening now -- WOW! Nicely done.

I think this is the best kind of advertisement for a recorder: it shows the recordist making excellent choices in mike selection and placement.

This is not to forget, of course, the wonderful band and music!
Old 3 days ago
  #49
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rumleymusic View Post
The original RME UFX did the same thing on their preamp channels, using an 8 channel converter and splitting the signal from the 4 preamps to achieve a slightly higher dynamic range.
The UFX design didn't involve gain switching, merely the fact that two convertors in parallel, with outputs added/averaged will give a statistical improvement in signal to quantising noise of 3dB. I was never able to determine if they also used the obvious technique of inverting the polarity of signal into one of the convertors, and subtracting instead of adding, therefore reducing any systematic symmetrical distortion in the conversion process (bit like push-pull/common mode rejection). Of course, there can be further improvement by increasing the number of convertors (others have used 4 giving 6dB improvement, 8 giving 9dB etc.) but diminishing returns sets in above 4, in my view.

It is more telling that RME did not continue the technique in the later UFXs, leading to the assumption that better components and design gave a more worthwhile result (price/performance) than the added complexity of the multiple convertors. And the UFX performance was pretty good to start with ...

(Edit: for some reason the site substituted UFX+ for the UFX that I originally wrote - and this remonstration seems to have cured it!).

Last edited by panatrope; 3 days ago at 01:37 AM.. Reason: Uppity spell-check!
Old 3 days ago
  #50
Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
The UFX design didn't involve gain switching, merely the fact that two convertors in parallel, with outputs added/averaged will give a statistical improvement in signal to quantising noise of 3dB. I was never able to determine if they also used the obvious technique of inverting the polarity of signal into one of the convertors, and subtracting instead of adding, therefore reducing any systematic symmetrical distortion in the conversion process (bit like push-pull/common mode rejection). Of course, there can be further improvement by increasing the number of convertors (others have used 4 giving 6dB improvement, 8 giving 9dB etc.) but diminishing returns sets in above 4, in my view.

It is more telling that RME did not continue the technique in the later UFXs, leading to the assumption that better components and design gave a more worthwhile result (price/performance) than the added complexity of the multiple convertors. And the UFX performance was pretty good to start with ...
My mistake then. Though the UFX+ and UFXII have the same increase on the preamps as the original UFX, the whole system just has a 3dB improvement over the original. I'm guessing they are using the same topology.
Old 3 days ago
  #51
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by emenelton View Post
Thanks

4006a l/r 4006 tlx ctr.

The tree was 11’ Up 26” spacing 1-2’ behind

The l/r were pointing out towards the ctr of th vn/celli fields

The tym had a beyer 260 with a standard re-ribbon
All omnis? 3 mics? Am I understanding correctly?
Old 3 days ago
  #52
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by weltarm View Post
After reading through the following thread on JWsound, I picked up the Remote Audio MEON Hi-Q 49Wh.

Remote Audio MEON Hi-Q batteries - Equipment - JWSOUNDGROUP

I've run it through a few cycles and find it to be a very, very good battery. I guess it's as good as the pricer Audioroot version, which apparently uses the same cells.

The 48Wh pack fits squarely inside the R4+. I'm getting a little over 8 hours recording 2ch with P48 engaged and about about 11 running 2ch line in with P48 disengaged.

I've ordered the Audioroot right angle battery cup to run one of the 98Wh batteries externally. If I understand correctly, when the external DC source is depleted, the machine switches to the internal source.

As I noted above, the power options on this machine are excellent. In addition to their long life, the 2504 Li-Ion packs are smart and communicate with the R4+ about time remaining. It's apparently very accurate. I have the Audioroot eSMART mono charger and it even reads the battery's temperature. I have little use for such data, but it's an indication of the level of tech built-in and available.

The more I use this recorder the more I love it. I've been running it with a custom Rens Heijnis 15V mike preamp, a compact version of the MPB-502, inside a backpack and control everything from the WIFI app. Everything is compact, light and flexible. Sound quality is supreme.

A few unorganized impressions about the R4+:

1) Build quality is excellent. Better than the Nagra Seven, as good as the SD 7XX series.
2) Headphone amp and its attendant DAC are superb and seem perfectly matched with the Sennheiser HD-25s.
3) The machine powers on and off instantly. Compared to the Nagra Seven I used, the difference is night and day.
4) The R4+'s screen is small and is very hard to read in daylight. I do hope SAX offers an upgrade option in the future.
5) The preamps and ADC are as good as anything I've heard. Sound is effortless, transparent and detailed. In short, the machine does what it should do: present an unencumbered capture of the energy being translated from a mike's capsule.
I am always curious how others perceive and describe preamps. Tell me how you would describe the Nagra 7’s pres and then the Sonosax? What differences do you hear in the result?
Old 3 days ago
  #53
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HelenaBzg View Post
All omnis? 3 mics? Am I understanding correctly?
plus outriggers spaced pair ww/brass (the ww/brss sound good because their spaced pair are the best mics made mk21) viol bs mc930

9 total
Old 3 days ago
  #54
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HelenaBzg View Post
I am always curious how others perceive and describe preamps. Tell me how you would describe the Nagra 7’s pres and then the Sonosax? What differences do you hear in the result?
Firstly, I would say that they are both excellent tape recorders, and I ended up selling the Seven not because it lacked anything sonically, but rather because the R4+ offers a few features that I find very useful. So useful, in fact, that I can't imagine being without them.

If I were pressed to compare the preamps/ADC of both machines, I'd say that the Nagra is transparent, whereas the R4+ is translucent. I don't know if this metaphor makes any sense, but the SAX seems to present its capture with an effortless attention to detail. Transients are represented with a clarity unmatched by any recorder I've used.

I think you said in another thread that you find the Schoeps microphones congested. I think if there's any box out there that might change your mind, the the SAX is it.

For example, and this is not a rhetorical question, do you happen to find this congested?

Fern Canyon, Arroyo Seco (20190316_01) by Benjamin Bishop | Free Listening on SoundCloud

This was captured with the R4+ using the MK2 (Rens Heijnis CMC upgrade with 15V preamp) in a Jecklin array.

Also telling to me is emenelton's excellent capture with the DPA 4006. This is a capsule that I have had trouble with in the past. But I think the material emenelton posted is detailed yet smooth. No doubt much of this has to do with the recordist's skill.
Old 2 days ago
  #55
Gear Maniac
 

Why is the 6 channel not getting any love? Are the pres and converters different? The RX4 can’t sum any channels/pan, correct?
Old 2 days ago
  #56
Gear Maniac
 

Regarding Schoeps, I record orchestras and wind bands and choirs. On solo instruments, I think Schoeps are smooth. In orchestral recordings everything is muddied and quashed. I can’t hear definition, identify clarity of instruments, parts and timbres. I have a bachelors in music and performance so I can hear everything and know the natural sounds from the instrument and it’s effects by room and hall. Schoeps is never accurate. It has a signature that gives a false representation that many find pleasing. It’s like a photo app filter that beautifies the subject. DPA is like a raw photo with no processing. Not always what one wants. .
Old 2 days ago
  #57
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by HelenaBzg View Post
I have a bachelors in music and performance so I can hear everything and know the natural sounds from the instrument and it’s effects by room and hall. .
. A music degree has no inherent capability of conferring correct, accurate and complete hearing.....however did you arrive at this fanciful and erroneous notion ?
Old 2 days ago
  #58
Arrow

Felix Hernandez-Jones, viola, performing at the LA Bach Marathon.

Sennheiser Twins to Sonosax SX-R4+, visible in the photo near the pillar.
Attached Thumbnails
Has anyone tried the Sonosax SX-R4+ yet ?-sonosax-viola.jpg  

Last edited by NorseHorse; 2 days ago at 06:45 PM..
Old 2 days ago
  #59
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
. A music degree has no inherent capability of conferring correct, accurate and complete hearing.....however did you arrive at this fanciful and erroneous notion ?
Actually it does. Sorry you are angry, bitter, jealous and resentful. That statement you exude with such dismissive act of in the know illustrates perfectly how little you know that you cannot figure it out.
Old 2 days ago
  #60
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HelenaBzg View Post
Why is the 6 channel not getting any love? Are the pres and converters different? The RX4 can’t sum any channels/pan, correct?
I think it gets a lot of love. It's just that it's been discontinued.

In fact, one user has been recently comparing the R4 with the R4+ on the Sonosax Users FB page. It seems like the R4 holds up very well sonically against the R4+.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump