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MBHO MBNM 410CL 279 € omni
Old 27th April 2014
  #1
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MBHO MBNM 410CL 279 € omni

just checking omnis on the MBHO pricelist.

MBNM 410CL 279 € omni pattern condensor microphone

MBP 648 219 € preamp w/Transformer 48V, switchable low-cut filter
+
KA 100 LK 195 € Linear Omni – very constant freq. Response
KA 100 DK 195 € Diffusefiled Omni – 6dB peak at 8-9kHz for distant pu
KA 1100 K 602 € 1” large diaphragm omni, gold sputterd vintage


I guess there OK to start with?


other options in my budget DPA 4060
Old 29th April 2014
  #2
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MBHO

I rented a Schoeps MK2H omni pair this weekend as well as DPA 4060, a Schoeps ORTF, to check against my beloved SPS422 Soundfield.
I recorded 15 meters away from the organ, and 10/5/3/2 meters from voice. all mikes into Korg MR 1000.
monitored on Remote Audio HN7506, Beyer dt990, Stax and Genelec 1032.

For me they sound a bit different.

The MK2H is the best to translate the 16' gedackt pedal stop, but sounds a bit to dull, SN ratio is very good. I couldn't audition MK2S or MK3.
actually it is too bassy, and for voice it is too WHOOOMY heh

the DPA 4060 was providing the most detailed sound, but at close distance (less then 3 meters) it is way to sharp for voice. SN ratio is absolutely OK for organ. on the 8' gedackt + 1' it sounds really OK.

Soundfield is a bit more narrow than the spaced pairs. A bit more noisy then Schoeps. However it gives the most detailed reverb tail.

ORTF pair is OK, I didn't compare on the same location with the Senn 8040. I think the 8040 is warmer.


I have no opportunity so far to test the MBHO mikes.


reaaaally want to know if this budgetfriendly mikes sound OK for this application:

distant pickup where the direct and ambient sound is 50/50, in churches.

MBNM 410CL
OR
MBP 648 preamp w/Transformer 48V +
KA 100 DK Diffusefiled Omni – 6dB peak at 8-9kHz for distant pu

I hear some people swearing by transformers. This MBP 648 preamp has it , and it is cheaper than transformerless alternatives!
Old 29th April 2014
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monitor View Post
I hear some people swearing by transformers.
Some people swear by them, others swear at them.

Transformers add a colour/distortion that some people like and others hate - it's a personal choice.

Regarding the MBHO mics - they are high quality, sold at a very reasonable price because they sell direct to the shops and don't have distributors.

It is a very small and focussed company in Germany (and I have visited them at the factory, talked to the MD and was fully shown around).
Old 29th April 2014
  #4
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I talked to a dealer last week, because I'm interested in a set of KA1000 & 603 preamps.
But he said that there are new preamps coming up, more detailed than the 603 AND smaller. Still waiting for some serious answers..
Old 29th April 2014
  #5
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Can I ask some expert question about MBHO?

I dislike when there's too much spot mikes mixed in, when soloist voice spot mikes are mono pasted on top of an orchestra it, with to much "s-harshness" , without blending them in the stereo picture with a MS stereo pickup etc etc.

I just had my first Schoeps MK2H experience. Liked it a lot. I can rent it, so no need to buy....

I want to buy something that's more sharp, to use at distance, together with my Soundfield.
tomorrow a 2nd hand DAV BG8 is arriving.

I do like DPA 4060, but it is too noisy, and MBHO offers cheaper omnis!!

I don't know if I prefer coloured are uncoloured mikes.
a modern mike with ultra low noise floor is of course cool. the Senn 8040 eg does not sound cold, bass response is OK. (haven't used 8020yet).

but MBHO is cheaper, and probably more reliable then DPA 4060....

is the cheapest mike MBNM 410CL (674 euro for a pair) as good as the modular ones?

I guess I'd opt for the cheapest body capsule combo:

MBP 648 w/Transformer + KA 100 DK Diffusefield Omni – 6dB peak at 8-9kHz for distant pu

in the coming years I can add the Linear Omni, and the LDC which fit on the same body.

how good is this LDC?
Old 29th April 2014
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kieftenbelt View Post
But he said that there are new preamps coming up, more detailed than the 603 AND smaller. Still waiting for some serious answers..
there's a 604 "improved transformerless technology only 80mm length"
for 378 euro ex vat
Old 30th April 2014
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monitor View Post
is the cheapest mike MBNM 410CL (674 euro for a pair) as good as the modular ones?
No
For the modular system, I found the 100DK have a little too much treble boost. But for organ it's ok. Not so good for voices and strings instruments. For these the 100LK is better depending of the acoustic and the distance.

Instead of the MBNM410 I would look at the Beyer MC910.
Old 30th April 2014
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
Some people swear by them, others swear at them.

Transformers add a colour/distortion that some people like and others hate - it's a personal choice.

Regarding the MBHO mics - they are high quality, sold at a very reasonable price because they sell direct to the shops and don't have distributors.

It is a very small and focussed company in Germany (and I have visited them at the factory, talked to the MD and was fully shown around).
Hi John,
Was this for a magazine review or just because you had an opportunity to check out the factory? If it was for a review, id be interested in reading it.
Thx,
Tom
Old 1st May 2014
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy-boy View Post
Hi John,
Was this for a magazine review or just because you had an opportunity to check out the factory? If it was for a review, id be interested in reading it.
Thx,
Tom
Neither, actually.

I was actually considering distributing them in the UK as they had no representation and it was a brand that I respected very well (and still respect).

So I went to see them and had a good discussion - but they did not want to be distributed at all and just wanted to sell direct to dealers.

It means that prices can be low, as there is no middle man, but it also means there is no advertising and they only sell a few by word of mouth.

Nice people who make a good product with care. They also make OEM microphones for others - eg: microphones for Ambient and the capsules for Soundfield, etc... - But only one person there speaks English.
Old 1st May 2014
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm View Post
No
For the modular system, I found the 100DK have a little too much treble boost. But for organ it's ok. Not so good for voices and strings instruments. For these the 100LK is better depending of the acoustic and the distance.

Instead of the MBNM410 I would look at the Beyer MC910.
Thanks Mathieujm,

Is the MBNM410 less good than the 100DK with 604 or 648 preamp?


"100DK little too much treble boost/not so good for voices and strings."

Do you mean when miking at close range (less dan 3 meters) are also too much treble at 5 to 10 meter?

I think I will buy the DK version, to record in reverberant churches, at a big distance (organ).

e.g. In the st-LaurensKerk in Alkmaar I recorded with the Soundfield almost halfway the church.

Schnitger: Orgelconcerten 2014
Old 1st May 2014
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monitor View Post
I think I will buy the DK version, to record in reverberant churches, at a big distance (organ).
I agree, the DK is ok. I know nice organ CDs recorded with a pair of 100DK+608 preamp and a Jecklin disk.

I listened to some orchestra recordings with the 410 and they were very bright. The tonal balance was not ok for classical music.

Your sounfield organ recording is great !

Don't Soudfield use MBHO caps ?
Old 2nd May 2014
  #12
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When I have time i will post some samples of the Alkmaar recording.
I did some of it at 5.6 MHZ DSD
Old 2nd May 2014
  #13
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm View Post

Don't Soudfield use MBHO caps ?
Yes, that's what I said in my post above.

(unless it's an old Soundfield, that is).
Old 2nd May 2014
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
Nice people who make a good product with care. They also make OEM microphones for others - eg: microphones for Ambient and the capsules for Soundfield, etc...
And a connection with Josephson too. I recall an old Hi-Fi News mag interview with Josephson, that seemed to indicate that Josephson started out with with mics's or mic parts oem'd by MBHO. But from a 2005 Tape Op Mag interview (see snippet below) it appears that the oem-ing was going in the other direction :-)
===============
Interview with Tape Op mag, 2005:
Q. What was the first thing you designed and built?

A. The company began in 1988 as kind of a joint venture with a small German microphone company, to design some products for them and sell them in the US. And we tried that for a couple of years and they ultimately got out of the business. That company has recently sold off the microphone business to some of its employees and you see it now on the market as MBHO. They're doing their traditional product line, but we started out not manufacturing those microphones. But by 1990 we began to take over the production of first the electronics and then the capsules. We just weren't able to get the quality we wanted and ended up having to do everything ourselves here. So it was a hard learning process, but we started with that as the basis, and by 1990 we were making our own designs.
================
Old 2nd May 2014
  #15
nkf
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MBHO makes the LD capsules for Brauner microphones too.
Old 4th May 2014
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nkf View Post
MBHO makes the LD capsules for Brauner microphones too.
Not anymore, at least for a number of models. Brauner makes their own capsules now, with a glued on membrane instead of the type clamped under a ring with screws. See my post here: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/8970896-post9.html
Old 5th May 2014
  #17
nkf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earcatcher View Post
Not anymore, at least for a number of models. Brauner makes their own capsules now, with a glued on membrane instead of the type clamped under a ring with screws. See my post here: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/8970896-post9.html
I've read the discussion you linked. Brauner was quoted with:
"We are now utilising a capsule sealing and protection ring instead of the one we had with the screws. This helps for an even longer resistance against moisture as people today use their microphones very intensively also in situations of close proximity."

I cannot understand this like saying, Brauner is now a capsule maker. Or at least you could understand this sentence it was this way for the old capsule designs too.
Maybe my English is just to bad.
If I remember correctly Dirk Brauner talked about a new capsule design he is doing, or wants to do, in house for a new mic design. Did this mic ever came out? I don't like this guy anyway … he is the 'Anti-Wuttke' for me … ;-)
Old 5th May 2014
  #18
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I think it was just the KHE Brauner that has the MBHO.
MBHO is the supplier for many of Dave Bocks mics and the Manley Gold Ref.
Recently Bought a MBHO 648/ KA1100 and can only say WOW, so want to DIY a Tube pre to couple with this thing!
Old 5th May 2014
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nkf View Post
I cannot understand this like saying, Brauner is now a capsule maker. Or at least you could understand this sentence it was this way for the old capsule designs too.
Maybe my English is just to bad.
If I remember correctly Dirk Brauner talked about a new capsule design he is doing, or wants to do, in house for a new mic design. Did this mic ever came out? I don't like this guy anyway … he is the 'Anti-Wuttke' for me … ;-)
I spoke with Dirk Brauner directly to learn that he is building these capsules in house. This is the new design, just not the new microphone that he wanted to build around it.

In my mic collection Schoeps and Brauner mics sit happily together. Please note that Brauner has this philosophy that his LDC's should be just as fast as SDC's, and preferably with off-axis coloration as low as possible. The Brauners I have do indeed have very fast transient response. And do note: Schoeps mics are amongst the warmest sounding SDC's that I have. They do have a clear signature sound. Just as Brauners have a signature sound. A strong belief in their own ideas is what both Dirk Brauner and Jurg Wüttke have in common. In a most Germanistic way.
Old 5th May 2014
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earcatcher View Post
A strong belief in their own ideas is what both Dirk Brauner and Jurg Wüttke have in common. In a most Germanistic way.
I have met most of the European microphone designers: Jurg Wüttke and Helmut Wittek at Schoeps, Stefan Peus and Martin Schneider at Neumann, Manfred Hibbing and Raimund Staat at Sennheiser, Jochem Kühnast at Microtech Gefell, Herbert Haun at MBHO and Ivan Hako, Miloš Rojko and Jaroslav Kotrla at FleA. I have not met Dirk Brauner (yet).

The one common thing about all these designers is that they all respect each other and all of them have a passion for "getting it right". They may all come to their designs from different directions, but all strive to make the best microphones they can.

And most top engineers will have a mixture of microphones from several of these designers in their kit.
Old 5th May 2014
  #21
nkf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
The one common thing about all these designers is that they all respect each other and all of them have a passion for "getting it right". They may all come to their designs from different directions, but all strive to make the best microphones they can.
On the surface Brauner wants to appear as such a guy, but if you read the texts carefully and listen to him in person (I did in German) you may get a different picture. Instead of being scientific oriented he drifts quickly into talks of emotional invocations (in German: 'Anrufungen') and try to let the audience being the solely judge. What sounds flattering to many is a clever attempt to avoid other talks. A self-confident microphone developer/engineer doesn't make multiple-subjective assumptions a leading argument. Mr. Wuttke is for me the perfect mix of a totally scientific oriented engineer, separating art discussions from technical decisions in the tool development. Brauner is riding the 'art' metaphor - right now on the web page of Brauner:
"What was once an everyday item, which could be reduced to simple technical parameters, was transformed into an active design element, in effect a piece of art, which is a tool for art."

That they team up with Myrinx and VoVox is another indicator for me to stay away from this brand.
I worked on material recorded by others with Brauner microphones and it sounded good. Therefore it is my solely emotional decision not to follow Mr. Brauner emotional evocations … ;-) There is no need for those "pieces of art" in my world of art.
Old 5th May 2014
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nkf View Post
On the surface Brauner wants to appear as such a guy, but if you read the texts carefully and listen to him in person (I did in German) you may get a different picture. Instead of being scientific oriented he drifts quickly into talks of emotional invocations (in German: 'Anrufungen') and try to let the audience being the solely judge. What sounds flattering to many is a clever attempt to avoid other talks. A self-confident microphone developer/engineer doesn't make multiple-subjective assumptions a leading argument. Mr. Wuttke is for me the perfect mix of a totally scientific oriented engineer, separating art discussions from technical decisions in the tool development. Brauner is riding the 'art' metaphor - right now on the web page of Brauner:
"What was once an everyday item, which could be reduced to simple technical parameters, was transformed into an active design element, in effect a piece of art, which is a tool for art."

That they team up with Myrinx and VoVox is another indicator for me to stay away from this brand.
I worked on material recorded by others with Brauner microphones and it sounded good. Therefore it is my solely emotional decision not to follow Mr. Brauner emotional evocations … ;-) There is no need for those "pieces of art" in my world of art.
I *did* say I had not met Dirk Brauner

I would agree about Jörg Wuttke - I would say that Manfred Hibbing at Sennheiser (who designed the MKH 20/30/40 series) is also an "engineer's engineer" and making sure that everything measures correctly as well as sounding great.

He was one of the very few that included the phase response diagrams of the microphones along with the frequency response and polar-pattern diagrams - as you can see in the original booklets on the MKH 20/30/40 series.
Old 6th May 2014
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nkf View Post
On the surface Brauner wants to appear as such a guy, but if you read the texts carefully and listen to him in person (I did in German) you may get a different picture. Instead of being scientific oriented he drifts quickly into talks of emotional invocations (in German: 'Anrufungen') and try to let the audience being the solely judge. What sounds flattering to many is a clever attempt to avoid other talks. A self-confident microphone developer/engineer doesn't make multiple-subjective assumptions a leading argument. Mr. Wuttke is for me the perfect mix of a totally scientific oriented engineer, separating art discussions from technical decisions in the tool development. Brauner is riding the 'art' metaphor - right now on the web page of Brauner:
"What was once an everyday item, which could be reduced to simple technical parameters, was transformed into an active design element, in effect a piece of art, which is a tool for art."

That they team up with Myrinx and VoVox is another indicator for me to stay away from this brand.
I worked on material recorded by others with Brauner microphones and it sounded good. Therefore it is my solely emotional decision not to follow Mr. Brauner emotional evocations … ;-) There is no need for those "pieces of art" in my world of art.
Science is what you think you know. But the more we research, the more we come to realize that we don't know much, if anything at all.

I have ears. That's enough for me. I don't need "scientific" certainties to make a good recording. Or a bad one, for that matter. I love to read what both Brauner and Schoeps have to say about what they think they know. But in all honesty it's just entertainment to me. Most definitely not a reason for my buying decisions.
Old 6th May 2014
  #24
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Thread Starter
so far the only reference to MBNM 410CL in this thread is that it is 'too bright for orchestra recording'.
but i am looking at a mike that is bit more bright than a Schoeps MK2H.

as the 410CL it is the cheapest omni of MBHO, it fits better into my budget right now,
i'm not so found of the line audio OM1 examples posted here.
the SN ratio of the DPA 4060 is not OK for me.
Old 6th May 2014
  #25
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Old 6th May 2014
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm View Post
Some examples are best

Here a not so good student orchestra recorded with a pair of MBHO 410+Jecklin disk
http://sd-5.archive-host.com/membres...e_de_Dijon.mp3

And here an other recording with Jecklin disk MBHO 648 preamp and 100D (diffuse field) caps.
https://soundcloud.com/mathieujm/quis-est-homo
the recording you made with MBHO 648 preamp and 100D (diffuse field) caps
sounds warm is there any compression, EQ, spots or reverb on it?

in the first example the hall is probably not OK to judge , but the mike sounds colder.
Old 6th May 2014
  #27
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Old 8th May 2014
  #28
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm View Post
Nothing done on each recording except level.
The second was made in a church with good acoustic,
The first was in a bad hall.
Here is another with the MBHO 410 in a better hall
http://sd-5.archive-host.com/membres...de_Chenove.mp3
Thanks a lot Mathieu!

I think the 410 is OK, but the MBHO 648 preamp and 100D is superb.

I will try both of them them out probably this weekend.
Old 19th May 2014
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm View Post
I agree, the DK is ok. I know nice organ CDs recorded with a pair of 100DK+608 preamp and a Jecklin disk.

I listened to some orchestra recordings with the 410 and they were very bright. The tonal balance was not ok for classical music.

Your sounfield organ recording is great !

Don't Soudfield use MBHO caps ?
hi Mathieu,

Could you post us a sample of organ recordings with MBHO?
Do you know how the MBHO LK or DK 100 compares with the line audio OM1?
Old 19th May 2014
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monitor View Post
I am looking at a mike that is bit more bright than a Schoeps MK2H.

Schoeps MK2S
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