The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Tags: , , ,

How bands sound on late night TV (Letterman/Leno/etc.) Condenser Microphones
Old 30th August 2006
  #1
Lives for gear
 
AdamJay's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Talking How bands sound on late night TV (Letterman/Leno/etc.)

I've noticed some trends in the overall broadcasted sound of rock bands doing live performances on TV. I'm not really talking about the house bands, but the guest music acts that typically play toward the end of the broadcast.

And i'd like to just start up a dialog about techniques for recording and mixing live bands for broadcast, and also why rock bands typically sound a certain way when performing on the late night TV shows. I'm talking about Letterman, Leno, Conan, Craig Ferguson, SNL, etc. (i don't watch Carson Daily becuse he is a tool, so i can't comment on how bands sound on his show).

I realize different television sets and home theatres will play a big roll in what you hear. And with that in mind i am talking about overall trends rather than specific performances/broadcasts.

I'll start with my observations as a simple listener:
One thing i have noticed is you never hear the high hats on drums, except maybe on Conan and the occasional SNL. Its all snare snare snare, and crash cymbals.
There was a band just now on Craig Ferguson and the drummer was chugging away on 16th note high hat patterns within a pretty upbeat song. Sadly, i couldn't hear a single high hat hit. I heard plenty of snare though. I felt kinda bad for the drummer, all that heavy work for nothing.

Guitars and Vocals typically sound acceptable.

But overall rock bands come across on these TV shows as 3 track, bland performances of Vocals, Guitars, Snares, and not really much else.
Is this typically for mono compatibility? Or keeping things simple for better translation through broadcast limiters?

i'd love to hear some different thoughts and comments.

Old 31st August 2006
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Jimbo's Avatar
I completely agree with you. I'd like to extend your comments to house bands like Letterman. Anton Fig is an excellent drummer, and I rarely used to hear his excellent playing on that show -- I haven't watched in years. If I remember correctly, Johnny Carsons band (Doc Severenson orchestra) sounded pretty good.

Snare, snare, snare....yes, I feel sorry for the poor drummers on those shows. It seems to get worse the more instruments are in the band. When I heard Green Day play (or most other power trios) the drums were fairly well mixed.

Maybe they don't allow/provide enough time to do an adequate sound check on those shows.

- Jim
Old 31st August 2006
  #3
one man, ONE mic pre
there certainly is no real soundcheck for the house band, it's just left set up all the time

guest artistes may get long soundchecks if they need it. (I've done hours sometimes on Letterman)

but really it comes down to WHO is doing it.

I thought Mike DeLugg in his years at Letterman did a great job, the best of the bunch,

in recent years the trend seems to be toward more and more DI stuff, except for the horns.
and i think it makes it all sound much more plastic-y

i hate that snare sound that just sounds like a 'pop' of wood on wood without any tone or SNARES sound to it.
but it seems to be common.

most of the big shows also record to a digital multi while the music plays, but they do the air mix in REAL time, live to video tape with the show.. they rarely go back and remix from the multi unless they absolutely HAVE to fix something awful.

but what it DOES let you do, is record a soundcheck and then go adjust the mix before the real show, off the multi playback of the rehearsal.


oh, and I'll add one more thing...
by FAR the nicest, most down-to-earth, normal guy was Carson Daly.
Old 31st August 2006
  #4
Lives for gear
 
audioez's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwittman View Post
i hate that snare sound that just sounds like a 'pop' of wood on wood without any tone or SNARES sound to it.
but it seems to be common.
Yeah, I'm with you on that one. Who ever said it was cool to put a snare mic over the drum head, pointing down at an angle .

Personally I'll never put out a hihat mic unless the band is using "in ears" and requests it for the monitors. Even then I won't use that mic on the music mix side of things.

As for hats I find just moving the mic off the snare drum picks up enough hat after a dose of eq.

Finally for the cymbals, this is due to having vocal mics open on stage. It's all about the faders and knowing the song to keep the mix clean.

Stay away from compression on every single channel, use faders!

Check out the VMA's on MTV tonight, plenty of music mixes for all to enjoy.
Old 1st September 2006
  #5
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Adam, you beat me to it…

I’ve been meaning to start a thread about music mixes on late night TV in relation to the early morning variety.

IMO, I feel late night got it going on (music mix wise) over morning TV the majority of the time especially the Letterman show.

Very strange -- Maybe it’s me because I don’t feel that you never hear the high hats. But, I do think at times, there are plenty of cymbals in the mix. Way too much for my taste. With that said, I really like the balances on the Letterman show throughout the years at CBS. To my ears it sounds pretty awesome more times than not. Back in the day Mike DeLugg was the king of the hill. His mixes were outstanding. IMO, he’s second to none. Now-a-days, I feel Harvey Goldberg is doing a fine job over at Letterman. Conan sounds pretty spot on too.

It sucks when you cannot hear what you’re viewing. Hi-hats, percussion, that third GTR or even prominent instruments seem to get lost during music mixes on talk shows especially the morning shows. It’s crazy right? We have the technology. Can we blame it on the gear? Could it be the ear and eye of the operator?

There’s one morning talk show that (eight out of ten times) all you hear is hi-hats. I mean the hats are as loud as the lead vocals. The drums sound washed out, important instruments are lost in the sauce, backing vocals are weak and when the artists perform with a combination of live and pre-recorded tracks, the tracks are way too loud – it’s pretty lame. However, every now and then you’ll get a splendid mix reminiscent of the quality you hear on late night TV.

Can you hear a difference between the morning and late night (music) TV? I can hear a difference in the quality. I happen to record the backend (30 or so minutes) of many talk shows. I have a stack a VHS machines recording tons of music mixes on broadcast TV. You might say it’s my homework. I've been doing this for years. I found that music mixes on late night TV have an advantage over morning TV. I’m not just talking about the balance and blend of the mixes. I’m talking about the perception of an overall (full body) fatter, richer, higher quality sound. Have you heard the same thing? I'm not sure why it's so but it is what it is.

I have faith in mono compatibility. IMO, it’s the most important thing when mixing for TV. Listening to the output of the production console (or uplink, etc. feed) and what’s going on there (processing wise) is also imperative for a proper music mix. Broadcast limiters, open production mics, FX and non-musical audience mics, etc. have a lot to do with the final sound. You must be listening through the production mix desk for the total picture.

Many of us have been in the music mix truck or CRM and felt pretty cool about the mix only to find out that the sound down stream sucked for one reason or another. You got to have that confidence track -- The return feed from the production desk is the key! It’s the only way to do it.
Old 4th September 2006
  #6
Lives for gear
 
Jim vanBergen's Avatar
 

My first try at a reponse to this disappeared into the realm of the unknown...I wish I could remember everything I was TRYING to say.

Thoughts:

1. What are you monitoring on? I have HUGELY different results on my panasonic 32" tv set speakers, and the Genelecs I have on the second audio outputs. (The Gennys were great in my remote truck, but sounded mediocre in my studio, and are best as a TV monitor. I get good bottom and and depth in many mixes that I don't get on an awfultone or the Panasonic cheap piece of sh*t onboard speakers.

2. What we send out from the truck or studio is not what transmission sends out. As much as I hate to say it, last year I walked from my audio suite on a video truck to the tranmission truck to listen to the mix. Found a dbx 266 comp squashing the hell out of my mix, and sounding like ASS. Had to get the producer to convince the XMission ENG to let me compress my own mix, after proving the buss compression and 2-mix peakstop comp patched post-buss. What we do can be manipulated and ruined by the tranmission truck, the fiber encoder, or any idiot who is downstream with an old Soundcraft Spirit or Mackie 1202!!! It's terrible, to say the least.

3. From time to time, I'll find an A&R exec sticks their uh....NOSE in my mix, to push up the vocal, the lead guitar, or whatever they are trying to sell to teenagers. Once this actually HELPED me find a problem on an internet webcast that sounded amazing inthe control room (the A&R jerk started screaming when I killed the CRM mix to hear the webcast mix off the computer) but it showed me exactly how thin a thick mix could sound, and how quickly you lose a fat kick and bass to multiple transmission lines and an eight-bit soundcard. But at that point, vox, snare, and guitars is ALL YOU GET in a thin mix, so you make the most of it, while I gave the 48 track DASH to the band afterwards as proof that it sounded great in the Neve, no so good on the 'net.

4. I've had a TV exec tell me, "The lead singers TITS are what sells," (you can guess the artist), "so base your mix on the vocal, Mr. Audio." Every *sshole has an opinion about our work, sadly, and we work for a bunch of them. I had nearly that same experience with Christine Aguilera's latest release, and I wasn't even mixing, I was the system tech.

5. NBC and ABC's morning shows, Oprah, Ellen, Regis & Kelli, and The View all do "morning show" with bands. I don't think they are presented in HD, unlike the late night TV shows, or that the tech supervisors have any control over the mix going to broadcast transmission, fiber, or satellite uplink. Do you find significant differences between morning shows and late night TV? I mean, other than talent who is not awake or human at 5am soundcheck versus a 4pm soundcheck...that part is a given.

By the way, LOVE this threads, thanks for starting it!!!!

Jim
Old 5th September 2006
  #7
one man, ONE mic pre
I think Conan sounds decent,
Letterman and Tonight, not so good these days.
both have that DI 'where's the REAL band' feel to the sound.

I also think perhaps too much individual track/mic compression.

Part of that snare sound I hate, i suspect, has to do with a compressor on the close mic (the SSL channel compressor?)

Mike DeLugg was also so good in part because he did his homework, listening to the record before the artiste came in so he had at least a headstart as to what they might want to sound like, what the vocal effect is like, and so on...

a lot of shows (especially in LA) act like they just "know" what things should sound like, whether it's what YOU sound like or not.

Jimmy Kimmel I think has particualrly awful music sound, even worse than Tonight.
Old 5th September 2006
  #8
Gear doesn't kill people.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wwittman View Post

i hate that snare sound that just sounds like a 'pop' of wood on wood without any tone or SNARES sound to it.
but it seems to be common.
The Conan Show is by far the worst offender for this. There's been an improperly set compressor on Max Weinberg's snare for the last 3 years that exacerbates this already horrible sound (it could be even longer but I only started watching Conan again about 3 years ago). And it's loud!


I personally think sound for live broadcast is at an all time low quality wise. When I think of how "alive" performances used to sound on The Beat Show or The Old Grey Whistle Test, as well as late night shows and compare to how things sound now it's night and day. Mostly down to a deadly combination of artists who can't sing or play and bad engineering. SNL is the best of a bad bunch now, if you ask me. The house band generally sounds excellent and sometimes that extends to the guest act.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen
I've had a TV exec tell me, "The lead singers TITS are what sells," (you can guess the artist), "so base your mix on the vocal, Mr. Audio."
Morningwood?! Am I right?!
Old 5th September 2006
  #9
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
I like the communication on this thread...Keep those opinions coming.

Did anyone hear Justin Timberlake on Ellen? I just played the tape I recorded this afternoon. What a disaster in so many ways -- I truly feel sorry for the folks that had their hands in on that mix, especially after all the hard work they must have put in to get that show on air.
Old 5th September 2006
  #10
Lives for gear
 
AdamJay's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
Adam, you beat me to it…

I’ve been meaning to start a thread about music mixes on late night TV in relation to the early morning variety.

I'd been meaning to start this thread for the last 6 months, but i'm never in front of my laptop while watching letterman or any other talk show. But when i finally started it, i was... and it just irks the hell out of me.

I can hear what you are hearing with regards to late night and early morning.
The only decent mixes i've heard on the morning talk shows that i can remember were either solo acts or acts with minimal instrumentation. (Ani Difranco = Voice/Guitar/UprightBass on the CBS weekend morning show comes to mind.) But often enough you definitely are seeing things that you aren't hearing.

What was really killing me about the overheads is how much cymbals you do hear, as you said... but even still, not enough high hat most of the time. Its hard to tell, is this the fault of the OH placement? Or the fault of the drummer? Perhaps drummers should consider using less loud crashes and crash/rides for talk shows. Although yes, they are performing live for maybe 50 to 500 people. And that live sound counts for something, they are also performing for a recording that goes out to hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people.

I know that, in my experience as a recordist. When OH placements are made for optimal balance between hats and the rest of the cymbals, i usually only need to reinforce the hats with a dedicated mic when the drummer is either playing his crashes too loudly, or playing on crash cymbals that are too loud to begin with in regards to the rest of his or her kit.

But my gut tells me that its mostly on the back of the mixing engineer.

As far as Max's wildly compressed snare sound (Conan), i think its really just part of HIS sound. I hear it in the old E Street stuff, just the same as well as the opening theme song. In fact, when i thinnk of that opening theme song for Conan, the sounds that come to mind first are that rolling snare and those horns.

And if i shall be permitted to continue these tangents (i've been watching way too much 'Deadwood'), i must say that the Conan show did a hell of a job with that gigantic band (3 risers!!?) for the Bruce Springsteen/Seeger Session Band. I had never seen so many people on a talk show for a musical act. And it didn't sound like ass. Sure more than half the acoustic guitars weren't audible, but hell they were strummin' for the sake of strummin' anyway. Max, the doubled up horn section, the violins, and all those vocal mics sounded great through my little Zenith mono TV set.
Kudos on that night.... but c'mon that sounded so good and then the next night the 3 piece rock band from SanFran sounds like ass... consistency, eh?
Old 5th September 2006
  #11
Lives for gear
 
AdamJay's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
and damnit, i rarely hear Paul Shafer's keyboards (in the mix).... is he just frontin' !??! heh heh
Old 6th September 2006
  #12
Lives for gear
 
Jim vanBergen's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by creegstor View Post

Morningwood?! Am I right?!
While its certainly true, it's not the artist I was referring to... but might as well be.



From AdamJay: "and damnit, i rarely hear Paul Shafer's keyboards (in the mix).... is he just frontin' !??!"

You know it, bro. Sold out a LONG time ago, but when he wants to, can still really play. Sad.

I have met the guys working on Conan...nice dudes, have the technical chops, but I still don't get why they make their choices. But I have historically liked the SNL band...probably for sentimental reasons, and not the mix.
Old 6th September 2006
  #13
one man, ONE mic pre
Did anyone see Godsmack on Conan tonight?

DAMN, did that sound horrible...
the worst guitar sound ever, no bass guitar at all, and JESUS was the singer out of tune.

the harmonica sounded nice though.
Old 8th September 2006
  #14
Lives for gear
 
Jim vanBergen's Avatar
 

For William Wittman- if you please!!!

William, I have to ask you a question- I just tracked a live vocal to track for a commercial tonight, and the snare drum on the original recording must be three times louder than the lead vocal throughout. This was pointed out to me, and I thought, "gee, isn't that the norm these days, not the exception?"

When did huge drum sounds become more important than the lead vocal? Your mixes have always had great, BIG drums, but never compete with the lead vocal (I'm thinking about the huge Outfield snare riffs, Fixx, Lauper, etc). I have gone back to listen to drum sounds (compare the vocal track to the drum sounds on, for example, Phil Collins' "In the Air Tonight". BIG drums, but not 3x the size of the vocal track.

The funny part about the gig I just finished, is that the "music-only" track I got for her to sing along to, had the snare placed well, still big but sitting IN the mix, not ON it...and had her high notes on it, which I find very funny! I put the channel limiter on her track but did not have a dedicated comp for her vocal mic (digital but kinda old SSL Aysis Air console), I was chasing her ALL OVER the place! Singer named Joanna, cute, nice voice, ok songs.

Anyway...I'd love to hear your thoughts!

Thanks,

Jim
Old 8th September 2006
  #15
13036
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by creegstor View Post


Morningwood?! Am I right?!
slightly OT:
I recorded Morningwood live for a radio station. They've got a song about taking off your clothes. during this song the singer jumped off stage and began teasing an audience member. then he moved in for a kiss, and she slapped him.
ben
Old 8th September 2006
  #16
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by wwittman View Post
Did anyone see Godsmack on Conan tonight?

DAMN, did that sound horrible...
the worst guitar sound ever, no bass guitar at all, and JESUS was the singer out of tune.

the harmonica sounded nice though.
I totally agree with you on this one!
Old 8th September 2006
  #17
Lives for gear
 
max cooper's Avatar
 

Great thread, guys.
Old 9th September 2006
  #18
one man, ONE mic pre
I think there's something about the digital recording snare that lacks impact... or susbtance.

so one of two things happens.
either it's in there but often LOST and all you here is this tick tick tick bright part of it... OR in order to get any punch in the gut from it, it ends up SO loud as to be cartoony.

I've actually been thinking of mentioning it online SOMWHERE, but I've just been noticing more on more on the radio how almost ALL new records don't really have any visceral impact snare sounds.
just this bright tssstt sound that gets lost in the compression.


on the other hand, I don't know... the sanre on the first Outfield record is LOUD.

I was mixing by listening to simulated radio compression and making the balance sound right like that, and the taking the compression back off stun to print the mix.

so the snare was monstrously loud and the vocals tucked a bit.
but it sounded right on the RADIO.
Old 3rd September 2007
  #19
Gear maniac
 
snüzz's Avatar
 

Old 3rd September 2007
  #20
Lives for gear
 
themaidsroom's Avatar
 

having been in the letterman audience a few times - the house band is so loud
you must have earplugs

once i saw joni mitchell on leno and she had brought a c-12.....
it sounded great




be well


- jack
Old 3rd September 2007
  #21
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
I've been meaning to respond to this threads for many months.

I'm glad you folks brought it back to life.

I plan to reply once I get through the gig I have over the next couple of days.

See you soon!
Old 3rd September 2007
  #22
Lives for gear
 
huub's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by snüzz View Post
i saw they were going to be on and i changed the channel. seriously though when i toured with ben folds in 2001 and we were on conan, leno, and kilborn our house guy ran the sound on those shows. i wonder if you are hearing the bands house sound guy in charge of these late night sounds also? MySpace.com - Snuzz - Winston Salem, North Carolina - Alternative - www.myspace.com/snuzz
Love your guitar sound snuzz!
Old 3rd September 2007
  #23
LX3
Lives for gear
 
LX3's Avatar
 

Ahhh, who mentioned "Whistle Test"?

I grew up addicted to OGWT in the late seventies/early eighties. I have tons of it on old Betamax tapes . That one show was responsible in so many ways for my getting into live music. They also did a lot of outside broadcasts which felt really "live". Great mix, and restrained video direction that actually let you see the band play (You know, instead of just a head-shot of the guitar player during his solo! Or cutting every three seconds in an effort to make dull-ish bands "exciting".)

So why do you think standards of live music mixing for TV have slipped so badly? US shows seem particularly underwhelming, but there's lots of UK live concert coverage which, while nothing like as harsh-sounding as most US shows, often ends up with a strange balance (Live Aid 20 years ago was, on the whole, fantastic especially considering the circumstances... but despite all the modern technology at our disposal now, Live 8 did nothing for me).

Or do I just remember those old shows being better than they really were? Did bands simply play better in the eighties? You know how some bands almost mix themselves, others are a continual battle to keep in line...
Old 9th February 2009
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by LX3 View Post

Or do I just remember those old shows being better than they really were? Did bands simply play better in the eighties? You know how some bands almost mix themselves, others are a continual battle to keep in line...
Ya, you answered your own question; I remember Bob the policeman well and, yes, the "rock" bands were way better before punk brought in the dregs of the rehearsal studios on the King's Road and Gary Glitter was the alternative. Also, half the techs at Shepherds Bush were Oxbridge graduates; they were knowledgeable and respectful of all musicians, so the sound was technically very good and never sloppy. The empire theatre was/is quite a small room but the slanted walls and roof contributed to a good sound.
All things change, not always for the better. We have all this technology now but like the joke, 4 guitarists and a drummer used to get together to play loud and feel good, now 5 guys sit around, read manuals and answer texts. Good memories, though.
PS please keep your betamaxes or put them up on YouTube! Do you have any Little Feat or Kokomo? PM me?

Last edited by audibell; 9th February 2009 at 01:19 PM.. Reason: forgot something
Old 10th February 2009
  #25
Gear Addict
 

Good to see I'm not the only one. I also feel that acts on Letterman and others are extremely dark, close-mic'ed sounding.
Old 18th February 2009
  #26
Gear Addict
 
EV676's Avatar
I read this thread with a great deal of interest because I get to deal with live music on a local-television morning show at least once a week, often more. WFAA-TV in Dallas has been producing “Good Morning Texas” since 1995. Since 2007 it has originated from our “storefront” studio at Victory Park, in front of the American Airlines Center in Dallas.

When the show first began we had the almost ideal situation for mixing music on the program in that we routed it through my audio post suite. A Harrison MR4 console was installed at the time with a 24 pair interconnect to the studio so it was pretty easy to handle anything from the simple "sing to tracks" to “cowboy singers” plunking away on their DI’d acoustics (I hate that sound) to occasionally something challenging and fun (Lyle Lovett showed up one morning sort-of unannounced with the medium sized version of the large band). I’m of the keep it simple mindset so the outboard was serviceable and useful (dbx and Lexicon) and the mic collection is the Beta 58 and 57 mix you’d expect, plus a couple of KM 84’s for grins and overheads/piano and a 77DX for the camera. My mix was integrated with the on-air mix and assuming I got at least one rehearsal in with the talent, I was happy about 95% of the time. By the way, our studio crew is absolutely the best.

At some point, around 2000 or so, our tech facility was totally remodeled and some idiot that worked for the integrator CUT the 24 pair that fed the studio. This was at a point when the show had changed direction and we weren’t doing live music. Of course that wasn’t permanent and about a year later, surprise! I had built a remote cart with a 16 channel Mackie and some basic outboard dbx and reverb unit so that was pressed into service. We started a new tradition for the show, so to speak, mixing under fire!

Since that time we’ve mixed everything on set with performers. When we made the move to the Victory Park facility everything was connected to the main studio facility via fiber optics, there’s no control room at Victory. So when a performance occurs at Victory, I’m there off to the side of the set with my Mackie cart, headphones and putting nearly 15 years of trial and error to the test.

My biggest gripe about working at the Victory studio is that it’s a live studio. Between the end of our 5 AM to 7 AM newscast we’re doing our local news cut-ins for Good Morning America (we’re an ABC affiliate), news and weather forecasts for the web and our HD2 channels, promos and oh yes, setting things up for the 9 AM live morning show. The performance space is small, no tiny. I’ve crammed as many as 11 in there (a Steely Dan cover band, quite good, don’t ask what the mix sounded like). The room is very live. It’s not too bad if it’s a singer/guitarist (did I mention I hate DI’d acoustic guitars?) or some one crooning to track. Bands can be tough simply because I might get the most basic sound check and that’s it because of time. I’ve even had an occasion or two when time supposedly set aside for a taping (a recent 5 song taping with a MAJOR country artist with strong Texas ties) was rushed along because the studio got overbooked by the news types. I can get a reasonably balanced mix together quickly. I just need to hear a song once or twice to get it down. It won’t be record perfect. It will be broadcast-able.

Yes, I’d love to spend a couple of days on the set of one of the big NY or LA shows and shadow the audio guy and see what goes into it. I know they probably have the advantage of an A2 (I don’t) but still to me it would be worth a look-see. Getting an isolated cubby-hole in my Dallas facility isn’t going to happen but I can deal with that. I’d like a slightly better board than the Mackie (Allen and Heath-Soundcraft-Midas!!!) but that’s not happening soon either. But most important, give a little love to the audio guy, all it takes is a 10 minute window for a rehearsal!

Wally
ev676
Old 19th February 2009
  #27
Lives for gear
 
jnorman's Avatar
NOTE: after writing the post below, i felt i had to warn you it is a rant. that said:

did you think that perhaps all the groups sound bad because they are mostly untalented hack musicians, with no creativity, no sense of melody, and absolutely no knowledge of music theory? (house band members notwithstanding - i imagine those dudes are all total pros sadly forced into playing such drivel as the ever popular "fun facts" theme). personally, i have not heard a single band on letterman, leno, or conan in the past year or so that had a singer or guitarist, or a song for that matter, that stood out in any way - there is nothing new there, just eh same old hackneyed beaten over ground covered by a million bands already.

i dont see any guitarists that actually appear to have practiced their craft, and never see anything happen that i cant pick up my strat and reproduce immediately, while i can remember having to listen to licks by bands from the past a million times before i could play them (even some of the much maligned "hair" bands of the 80s and 90s).

and apparently singers dont need to be able to carry a tune, or have any concept of developing a melodic theme.

i swear i think this whole pile of **** started with nirvana, who single-handedly took us all back to the stone age in terms of production value - i know, let's all sound like we are playing in the garage in the 8th grade!! of course, i am old and tend to compare todays groups with led zep, yes, pink floyd, tull, eagles, steely dan, queen, etc etc - but come on, isnt there any creative talented group out there at all anymore?
Old 19th February 2009
  #28
Gear addict
 
BenJah's Avatar
 

Quote:
NOTE: after writing the post below, i felt i had to warn you it is a rant. that said:

did you think that perhaps all the groups sound bad because they are mostly untalented hack musicians, with no creativity, no sense of melody, and absolutely no knowledge of music theory? (house band members notwithstanding - i imagine those dudes are all total pros sadly forced into playing such drivel as the ever popular "fun facts" theme). personally, i have not heard a single band on letterman, leno, or conan in the past year or so that had a singer or guitarist, or a song for that matter, that stood out in any way - there is nothing new there, just eh same old hackneyed beaten over ground covered by a million bands already.

i dont see any guitarists that actually appear to have practiced their craft, and never see anything happen that i cant pick up my strat and reproduce immediately, while i can remember having to listen to licks by bands from the past a million times before i could play them (even some of the much maligned "hair" bands of the 80s and 90s).

and apparently singers dont need to be able to carry a tune, or have any concept of developing a melodic theme.

i swear i think this whole pile of **** started with nirvana, who single-handedly took us all back to the stone age in terms of production value - i know, let's all sound like we are playing in the garage in the 8th grade!! of course, i am old and tend to compare todays groups with led zep, yes, pink floyd, tull, eagles, steely dan, queen, etc etc - but come on, isnt there any creative talented group out there at all anymore?
I strongly disagree with every single point you have made. Do you know how good a player you have to be to be considered for those TV bands? It's a lot of site reading and chart work. Paul S from letterman has released well respected jazz albums.

Nirvanas rhythm section was one of the strongest in the history of rock. It may sound simple but f*ck was it grooving tight and proud. You just don't sell millions of records and change the face of rock music with a sloppy rhythm section.

Peace
Old 19th February 2009
  #29
Gear maniac
 
davew's Avatar
 

i would say the house bands DO get sound check before shows. i've heard letterman and shaffer discuss the day's 'music rehearsal' many times.
Old 19th February 2009
  #30
Lives for gear
 
jnorman's Avatar
hey benja - please do note that i said:
"house band members notwithstanding - i imagine those dudes are all total pros"

it is pretty clear that everyone in paul's band is a very experienced professional, capable of dealing with anything you can throw at them.

i will have to continue to disagree with you about nirvana, though i can respect your opinion. just because i never got them, does not mean they did not connect solidly with their audience. just like guns n roses - i thought they pretty much sucked too, but my son loved them. i can accept that. i told you it was a rant, AND i told you i was old - but all that said, i still do not see any bands around right now that have the kind of raw creativity and melodic invention of the groups i mentioned in my post. or even any individual artists. there are a few i like okay (craig david comes to mind), but where is the new joni mitchell or james taylor or sting? it sure isnt rihanna or kanye west or beyonce or john legend - they are pretty good, but ultimately not in the same league.

anyway, keep posting - it is all about ideas and opinions. mostly, i just enjoy recording, mixing, and producing anything i have the opportunity to get to do...
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+  Submit Thread to Reddit Reddit 
 
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
eligit / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music & Location Recording
13
scoob / Rap + Hip Hop engineering & production
2
hanisch / So much gear, so little time!
27
silencereleven / So much gear, so little time!
1
silencereleven / Work In Progress / Advice Requested / Show & Tell / Artist Showcase / Mix-Offs
1

Forum Jump