The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Tags:

OM1 - What's it about?
Old 11th July 2017
  #361
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Given To Fly View Post
That was a really good performance! I stopped what I was doing entirely so that I could listen to it. Thank you for recording it and sharing it. Elliott Carter is my favorite composer so your recording made my day!
Glad you enjoyed it !....one of the musicians observed that it was no walk in the park learning it, about 12 hours each of personal practice, 7 hours of combined rehearsal, not to mention the complex cross-rhythms: 'neuroplasticity in action' she called it
Old 11th July 2017
  #362
Gear Nut
 
lukedamrosch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
OM-1 pair, 45 cms spacing, suspended (pointing down) about 5 feet above and a few feet in front of a pair of standing performers....the piece was composed as a 60th birthday gift to Pierre Boulez
Very nice. Could you briefly describe the space? Thanks, as always, for sharing!
Old 11th July 2017
  #363
Lives for gear
It was an old art-deco era ballroom, small audience (around 60), wooden floor, the players were on floor level a few metres in front of the audience. I guess the mics were close enough to the performers (and pointing down towards the floor) to reduce the effect of the room, but I didn't want any more traffic noise to intrude than already did (it's on the intersection of 2 major roads !)
Old 11th July 2017
  #364
Lives for gear
from the same concert, Schulhoff Concertino, first 2 movements
Attached Files
Old 12th July 2017
  #365
Lives for gear
 
mljung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
from the same concert, Schulhoff Concertino, first 2 movements
Thanks for these fine clips - it shows the OM1 as a truly natural (un-hyped) microphone - no exaggerated anything. I have a pair myself which I use mainly for environmental sounds (a very lightweight remote kit, plugged directly into a handheld recorder). Anyhow all my personal OM1 tests show the same natural character, as can be heard here, and I love them for it. They may lack the final resolution from some of the really expensive omnis, but really, these are highly recommended for everyone seeking nice omni-mics for their collection.

::
Mads
Old 12th July 2017
  #366
Gear Nut
 
lukedamrosch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
It was an old art-deco era ballroom, small audience (around 60), wooden floor, the players were on floor level a few metres in front of the audience. I guess the mics were close enough to the performers (and pointing down towards the floor) to reduce the effect of the room, but I didn't want any more traffic noise to intrude than already did (it's on the intersection of 2 major roads !)
Thanks for the info!
Old 12th July 2017
  #367
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
about 4 feet back from the rear (tail) leg of the piano...a reasonable distance from the hammers ......here's some Bach from the same concert
Hi studer58,

is that still 34 cm spacing? I like this clip the best.
Old 13th July 2017
  #368
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by monitor View Post
Hi studer58,

is that still 34 cm spacing? I like this clip the best.
Yes 34 cms for the piano recordings, 45 cms for these latest strings and woodwinds ones of the last 5 days or so
Old 18th July 2017
  #369
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
from the same concert, Schulhoff Concertino, first 2 movements
This sounds magnificent. How far back did you have the omnis from the strings? I recorded a symphony recently with these as outriggers and CM-3 as an ORTF main pair. I was getting some harshness on the strings but I'm thinking I was either too high above the strings or perhaps they were just harsh sounding instruments. The concert was Vivaldi's Gloria and Handel's Coronation Anthem 1/ Zadok the Priest. The musicians were not using baroque strings and I'm wondering if that might have been some of the harshness. I'll try to post some mp3s tonight.
Old 31st July 2017
  #370
Lives for gear
 
jpgerard's Avatar
 

Chrshv80, still looking forward to hearing your samples. SO far I have received no complaints from OM1 owners and knowing how smooth and linear the OM1 is, I'm guessing that you're on the right track: the source may have been just harsh, or the mics may have been pointing at an angle focusing on too much hard treble harmonics. Also, not that I've noticed that my ears tend to smooth things out a bit... if I record something, no matter how soft and smooth, the act of recording and then playing back, even if I spent considerable time placing the mic at the best spot, always sounds harder. Digital recording artifact? Maybe. But I think it's our ears and brain's natural tendency to process real 3D sound as opposed to a stereo signal playback at work here. Anyone else noticed this???
Old 31st July 2017
  #371
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
But I think it's our ears and brain's natural tendency to process real 3D sound as opposed to a stereo signal playback at work here. Anyone else noticed this???
Yes, me
And more with cardio than with omni. Normal.
But for me, if the instuments and room are good, it's not harshness, only more focus.

Ah Chrshv80, then after considering your recording gears (and yes, the OM1 are really smooth), you may consider your listening gears. There are so much headphones and monitors with too much highs (you know, to have more air, more details etc.). But with strings it doesn't work. Strings become harsh.

Here is a short extract with 2 cello (modern ones) recorded in my living room with OM1.
Attached Files

Extrait 2 cello.mp3 (2.73 MB, 902 views)

Old 1st August 2017
  #372
Lives for gear
 
jpgerard's Avatar
 

Phew! Thanks.

And yes, I didn't consider the playback chain, it may be a pair of treble rich HP's indeed. Nice living room sound you got there, BTW.
Old 1st August 2017
  #373
Gear Head
You will often have problems with recording strings as the distance from source can be critical - not to mention the quality of the playing - and of course the room acoustic. With a good acoustic and player(s) with big sounds, and getting the mic's at the right distance, will give excellent results. Also using ribbon mic's can add that extra bit of quality.
Old 1st August 2017
  #374
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
Chrshv80, still looking forward to hearing your samples. SO far I have received no complaints from OM1 owners and knowing how smooth and linear the OM1 is, I'm guessing that you're on the right track: the source may have been just harsh, or the mics may have been pointing at an angle focusing on too much hard treble harmonics. Also, not that I've noticed that my ears tend to smooth things out a bit... if I record something, no matter how soft and smooth, the act of recording and then playing back, even if I spent considerable time placing the mic at the best spot, always sounds harder. Digital recording artifact? Maybe. But I think it's our ears and brain's natural tendency to process real 3D sound as opposed to a stereo signal playback at work here. Anyone else noticed this???
I just finished mixing the concert over the weekend. I ended up turning down the OM-1s, and I don't think it's a reflection of them being bad at all. I think it was a combination of a bad sounding room and violins that should have been voiced with baroque strings since it is a smaller ensemble. The musicians nor the church would have the budget for beyond what we had. I left just a touch of the OM-1 outriggers in but they were picking up too much of the ugly early reflections so I ended up using more of the main pair CM-3s. I had to attenuate down the strings in the 3,000-4,000 hz range by at least 6 db. but again, I think it's more of a bad sounding room problem. I will post some tonight.
Old 1st August 2017
  #375
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm View Post
Yes, me
And more with cardio than with omni. Normal.
But for me, if the instuments and room are good, it's not harshness, only more focus.

Ah Chrshv80, then after considering your recording gears (and yes, the OM1 are really smooth), you may consider your listening gears. There are so much headphones and monitors with too much highs (you know, to have more air, more details etc.). But with strings it doesn't work. Strings become harsh.

Here is a short extract with 2 cello (modern ones) recorded in my living room with OM1.
Your recording sounds great! I think I've got the strings sounding decent now in my recording, will post some examples tonight. The sanctuary where I recorded I think happens to be a very bright room in general so like I mentioned above, I had to attenuate down the 3,000 to 4,000 hz range for the main pair CM-3 and OM-1s quite a bit. That room has ugly early reflection sounds as well.

As far as my monitoring chain goes, I'm using the onboard DAC on the Antelope Goliath directly into Dynaudio BM5As. They seem very smooth on most program material For my home stereo I also double-check everything through a Rotel 5-channel power amp, separate pre-amp processor and B&W 600 series speakers.
Old 2nd August 2017
  #376
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
Chrshv80, still looking forward to hearing your samples. SO far I have received no complaints from OM1 owners and knowing how smooth and linear the OM1 is, I'm guessing that you're on the right track: the source may have been just harsh, or the mics may have been pointing at an angle focusing on too much hard treble harmonics. Also, not that I've noticed that my ears tend to smooth things out a bit... if I record something, no matter how soft and smooth, the act of recording and then playing back, even if I spent considerable time placing the mic at the best spot, always sounds harder. Digital recording artifact? Maybe. But I think it's our ears and brain's natural tendency to process real 3D sound as opposed to a stereo signal playback at work here. Anyone else noticed this???
Here is the first one, Handel's Coronation Anthem:

Second sample, Vivaldi's Stabat Mater, RV 621 I. Doloroso:


Third sample, Domine Deus from Vivaldi's Gloria:


Will upload last selection tomorrow that features more strings.

It was recorded for a live audience in the sanctuary so a bit of background noises. There was not enough budget for me to remove a lot of noise with iZotope Rx.

I recommend downloading the wave file as their compression codec really does a number on the strings. I'll post a few others soon.
Old 2nd August 2017
  #377
Lives for gear
Ok, I know where you problems come from...
It's just that the strings don't play in tune
So instead of the full sound expected you have what you can call harshness, but it's just all the bad harmonics generated by the violins not in tune among themselves.
When there is solo violin, you don't have this "harshness" !
You can't do anything against that. It's only the orchestra that can do a good sound.
Old 2nd August 2017
  #378
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm View Post
Ok, I know where you problems come from...
It's just that the strings don't play in tune
So instead of the full sound expected you have what you can call harshness, but it's just all the bad harmonics generated by the violins not in tune among themselves.
When there is solo violin, you don't have this "harshness" !
You can't do anything against that. It's only the orchestra that can do a good sound.
Thanks for the feedback! It definitely felt like they were playing out of unison in some of the pieces. Only the first and second violins were full professionals. The rest of the players were in college or in their mid 20s. I need to train my ears better for hearing out of tune vs. out of unison. On one of the song intros (not added above) I could definitely hear an out of tune viola and violin but in most cases, it was more subtle. Most of the really good players in my area are with the Peoria Symphony Orchestra, but outside of that, it's hard to find them locally. The church does not have a huge budget so this particular ensemble was a hodge podge of players. There were two rehearsals the prior two nights but it would have helped to have had more.
Old 2nd August 2017
  #379
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm View Post
Ok, I know where you problems come from...
It's just that the strings don't play in tune
So instead of the full sound expected you have what you can call harshness, but it's just all the bad harmonics generated by the violins not in tune among themselves.
When there is solo violin, you don't have this "harshness" !
You can't do anything against that. It's only the orchestra that can do a good sound.
There are so many factors involved, but yes, the standards of string playing are not always very good. So many players produce a rotten sound with poor intonation and VERy unmusical phrasing.

It's the same with singers, the mic will record only what it hears, so garbage in = garbage out!
Old 2nd August 2017
  #380
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
from the same concert, Schulhoff Concertino, first 2 movements
This is great Studer, I'd buy a copy of the whole album if you have it for sale somewhere.
Old 2nd August 2017
  #381
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrshv80 View Post
This is great Studer, I'd buy a copy of the whole album if you have it for sale somewhere.
Not available for sale, but final 2 movt's of Schulhoff Concertino are here.
Attached Files
Old 2nd August 2017
  #382
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Not available for sale, but final 2 movt's of Schulhoff Concertino are here.
The woodwinds sound terrific, what pre-amp/interface were you using?
Old 2nd August 2017
  #383
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrshv80 View Post
The woodwinds sound terrific, what pre-amp/interface were you using?
Mackie 1402 VLZPro mic inputs, but tapped off by the mixer's channel insert function, so none of the in-line channel EQ or fader is in the circuit, it's using the Mackie as a clean mic preamp, supplying gain and phantom only.
Old 2nd August 2017
  #384
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Mackie 1402 VLZPro mic inputs, but tapped off by the mixer's channel insert function, so none of the in-line channel EQ or fader is in the circuit, it's using the Mackie as a clean mic preamp, supplying gain and phantom only.
I never would have guessed. Sounds phenomenal. I was using a Behringer X18 Air with Midas pre-amps to record prior to the Goliath and I thought that its pre-amps were the strong point too but the conversion quality, while not bad, definitely was not up to par for more delicate sounding music. Its quality was definitely superior to earlier products from Behringer.
Old 3rd August 2017
  #385
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrshv80 View Post
I never would have guessed. Sounds phenomenal. I was using a Behringer X18 Air with Midas pre-amps to record prior to the Goliath and I thought that its pre-amps were the strong point too but the conversion quality, while not bad, definitely was not up to par for more delicate sounding music. Its quality was definitely superior to earlier products from Behringer.
I think the secret, if using a mixer primarily for its preamp, is to seek out the insert point (rather than the Rec Out, which often is post eq and even post fader) and find out how clean a path it is and then use that ? I doubt the Goliath would face any competition from either the X18 or Mackie though
Old 7th August 2017
  #386
Lives for gear
 
jpgerard's Avatar
 

Yeah I can't say I hear a technical problem, rather a performance issue... in the first example, once the choir kicks in... ouch. I've battled the dreaded technical/musical balance in my early years as an engineer. When I realized that most of the problems "heard" were in fact tied to the musical side of things, rather than the technical side, I managed to figure out how to separate the two. So I started having a musical approach, and a technical approach. The musical approach was used with most customers at the studio, the tech side was left for the online forums and occasional chat with fellow engineers. I would recommend, if possible, trying to get involved with a higher grade orchestra and taping rehearsals or possibly public performances so that you can focus on your gear and technique without the influence of, as stated in other posts, tuning and playing issues. Better musicians will also invariably have better instruments and will control them a lot better resulting in a much more musical starting point but also, acoustically, a more solid source. Then you can really evaluate your mics and technique.
Old 7th August 2017
  #387
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
Yeah I can't say I hear a technical problem, rather a performance issue... in the first example, once the choir kicks in... ouch. I've battled the dreaded technical/musical balance in my early years as an engineer. When I realized that most of the problems "heard" were in fact tied to the musical side of things, rather than the technical side, I managed to figure out how to separate the two. So I started having a musical approach, and a technical approach. The musical approach was used with most customers at the studio, the tech side was left for the online forums and occasional chat with fellow engineers. I would recommend, if possible, trying to get involved with a higher grade orchestra and taping rehearsals or possibly public performances so that you can focus on your gear and technique without the influence of, as stated in other posts, tuning and playing issues. Better musicians will also invariably have better instruments and will control them a lot better resulting in a much more musical starting point but also, acoustically, a more solid source. Then you can really evaluate your mics and technique.
Excellent advice which I would fully endorse.
Old 7th August 2017
  #388
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
Yeah I can't say I hear a technical problem, rather a performance issue... in the first example, once the choir kicks in... ouch. I've battled the dreaded technical/musical balance in my early years as an engineer. When I realized that most of the problems "heard" were in fact tied to the musical side of things, rather than the technical side, I managed to figure out how to separate the two. So I started having a musical approach, and a technical approach. The musical approach was used with most customers at the studio, the tech side was left for the online forums and occasional chat with fellow engineers. I would recommend, if possible, trying to get involved with a higher grade orchestra and taping rehearsals or possibly public performances so that you can focus on your gear and technique without the influence of, as stated in other posts, tuning and playing issues. Better musicians will also invariably have better instruments and will control them a lot better resulting in a much more musical starting point but also, acoustically, a more solid source. Then you can really evaluate your mics and technique.
Great advice and much appreciated. With the church's limited budget (along with lack of decent local string players) the music director gets what he gets, unfortunately. The first violinist is an accomplished player: Marcia Henry Liebenow but I believe the rest of the musicians besides soloists and oboe player were just fresh out of college.

I'd love to find a higher grade orchestra to record but with it being a small metropolitan area I don't want to step on anyone's toes who already has some established recording gigs.
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+  Submit Thread to Reddit Reddit 
 
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
yxz / Electronic Music Instruments & Electronic Music Production
13
raffivegas / Cockos Reaper
133
Blast9 / So much gear, so little time!
50
raffivegas / Electronic Music Instruments & Electronic Music Production
4

Forum Jump