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CM3 - really THAT good?
Old 1st September 2017
  #1621
Geariophile
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermetech Mastering View Post
Thanks for the input, that's a classic technique that I still have to try, do you reckon CM3 at neck and CM48T (valve LDC) over shoulder would be best, or vice versa? Of course will probably try it both ways... Hopefully get someone else to play the guitar while I run around with headphones experimenting.

Yeah, Folk indeed, but not really Trad, there will be trippy modular synths and all sorts, so think more Psych/Freak folk such as The Incredible String Band, Current 93, Espers, and Fovea Hex, as opposed to Woody Guthrie or The Copper Family. I get what you're saying about intimacy and connection, but there is certainly space for things to get "far out man" too.

I do of course want to start simple, I'm still working on the song writing, so it'll probably be a while before I start recording in earnest, but when I do I'll start with simple one mono micing in various places, before trying the fancy stereo stuff.
That one works great with two of the same mics, too. Just try and see what you get. Good luck with nailing your vision!
Old 8th September 2017
  #1622
Here for the gear
Well this is a surprise!

I bought a pair of these wee cm3 beasties some years ago from the recommendations here pn this thread i believe and very much enjoy the sounds they capture.
Reading through it seems many of the engineers here are into choir and classical music otherwise using very capable microphones, I just had to reflect that alone is a testament to their value.
I acquired them mainly for drum overheads as I generally only use 3 microphones on a drumkit, Kickdrum and 2 overheads in varying arrangements and also for capturing piano, I have of course used them on a variety of different instruments.
Then when I had a bit more savings I purchased a pair of Shure 181c's so i can record drums and piano or whatever else requiring 2 pairs of sdc's simultaneously. I also have a pair of very rare AKG lapel mics of exceptional quality that my Grandfather had to stick inside his Bosendorfer Grand, these are however omni's.

All these microphones are fantastic, All very different, I very much love the Shures on drums as they capture the depth and tone of toms, one could easily do away with the kick drum mic, and also they translate the cymbals in the most beautiful way, mmm!
The cm3's will replicate the sound of a guitar amplifier almost perfectly on my monitors as I heard it in the room, or a Rhodes foldback on that matter, otherwise, I particularly liked one with a second microphone, usually a dynamic or ribbon on Bass flute and cello, really captures the soundboard of a cello.

Thankyou GS and all the makers of fine audio and equipments, The cm3 was amongst the first of my purchases toward a great sounding recording setup.
Old 9th September 2017
  #1623
Gear Nut
 
lukedamrosch's Avatar
 

Every time I see this thread's title, I can't help but hear in my head:

"CM3 - really THAT good?"

"YES."
Old 10th September 2017
  #1624
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukedamrosch View Post
Every time I see this thread's title, I can't help but hear in my head:

"CM3 - really THAT good?"

"YES."
They work pretty well in a live PA reinforcement situation too. Last night I did the soundmix for a large scale theatrical concert in a city warehouse, and used the CMs's on each end of a 67 cm stereo bar, positioned about 40 cms above the shoulders of the viola and violin player.

We had amplified electric bass, drum kit, percussion/marimba, cello, clarinet, accordion, piano and keyboard, not to mention harp and 1 or 2 singers at a given time.

You might still be able to see the cellphone streamed video here: https://www.facebook.com/SlingsbyThe...5677850313088/

Goes to show the CM3 can hold its own with any other reinforcement mic when amplification is used on a full stage !
Old 12th September 2017
  #1625
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In my experience, CM3s can be pleasing when used for sound reinforcement but find myself having to watch out for feedback in some situations due to the wide card pattern. They are also visually unobtrusive for photo and video purposes.
Old 12th September 2017
  #1626
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jpgerard's Avatar
 

Yup, wide Cardioid indeed.
Old 12th September 2017
  #1627
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hbphotoav's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
In my experience, CM3s can be pleasing when used for sound reinforcement but find myself having to watch out for feedback in some situations due to the wide card pattern. They are also visually unobtrusive for photo and video purposes.
Judicious use of HPF and a cut somewhere around 400Hz are my "usual" starting place using them in reinforcement roles in less-than-ideal (read: cafetorium/gymnatorium) venues. Only mics I like better are the quartet of recently acquired DPA4099s. Sometimes a clean hyper is the only solution.

HB
Old 12th September 2017
  #1628
Lives for gear
Thank you. I will make a note to try that.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
I don't think of them in terms of "beefier" and "leaner" per se, to be honest I think you'll notice the wide polar response of the CM3 before you notice differences in the low end. The flatter top end of the CM3, for sure. But when it comes to the bass, used at an appreciable distance, let's say I wouldn't swap 140's for CM3's hoping to get a "bigger low end". What would be interesting would be to run both pairs together... then you could decide what works best for you and you could even report here!
So, yes, I did record an orchestra concert yesterday with both the KM140's in ORTF and the CM-3's in NOS. Because I had to rig both pairs onto a single boom, I couldn't get the spacing and angles absolutely perfect, but they were very close.

In initial listening I'm really torn between the two, so I may need some help deciding for the future. Hopefully there are one or two people here who aren't afraid to give opinions.

After I mix the concert I'll post some A/B clips.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1630
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jpgerard's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmccoy View Post
In initial listening I'm really torn between the two, so I may need some help deciding for the future.
Well, what's the problem then? If you're happy with both... pick whatever fits your needs and budget. The KM's have a bit less residual noise so maybe an edge here? Or is it irrelevant in this context given the background noise of the venue? If budget is a concern I guess it's an easy decision... Only you can decide. they're both well made and durable. One major difference is the polar pattern. Give a good listen: a bit more room from the CM3's (although you used different placements but that's OK in this example, I guess). If you can afford both and need both Cardioid and Wide Cardioid patterns then we are of no further use
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1631
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spambot_2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmccoy View Post
Hopefully there are one or two people here who aren't afraid to give opinions.
Much like complaining, dispensing opinion is easy and free, so I don't see how one wouldn't like it

Thank you all by the way, I bought into the hype and ordered a pair of CM3, without this thread (among others) that probably wouldn't have been the case and I'd be still looking into chinese KM84 copies, so while I'm not sure the mics will be exactly right for me, surely they'll be good at least.
And cheaper than KM84 copies...
I'm not big into on-location recording but I have a friend that probably won't mind me trying these out with the coir he sings in or on his piano, so I'll be able to see how they fare.
And just in case I'll join in with the shilling to help out other indecisive guys, heh.

EDIT: and here I got my pair of CM3, many thanks to pinknoise systems and TNT.
I've been impressed by how they fared on el. guitar amp more than by how they fared on ac. guitar, and being green and used to an old pair of dynamic mics, I've also been impressed by their low noise level - most of the noise in the greensleeves recording comes from a computer fan.
Here's a couple pieces for anyone interested, all without processing, both CM3 going into a mackie onyx blackbird with the low cut (75Hz) inserted.
Then here's another recording of greensleeves, with less fan noise and no LC inserted.
Do pardon my stiff guitar playing.
Attached Files

Greensleeves NOS stereo tsubasa.mp3 (2.41 MB, 1608 views)

Hallelujah CM3 test nonmix.mp3 (2.90 MB, 1583 views)

Greensleeves NOS stereo tsubasa_2.mp3 (1.82 MB, 1488 views)

Old 2 weeks ago
  #1632
Gear Maniac
 
Vesta's Avatar
 

A few pages back jpgerard recommended I try a CM3 as a vocal mic, in place of a LDC I normally use in my studio. I didn't think much of it and took it half-seriously, to be honest. (I've been in countless studios and never seen a SDC used for lead vocal takes.) Today, I had some free time and curiously tested just that. Had a vocalist sing into several LDC mics and a CM3, behind a single pop filter. I have to say I was amazed by the results. It is completely beyond any reason and logic why small diaphragm condensers aren't used as vocal mics in studios. What I got with the CM3 was beautiful, smooth recording which can also sit very well in the mix. There was hardly any difference between the small diaphragm and the large diaphragms sound, except that the small diaphragm CM3 had a more neutral (but milky smooth at the same time) tone lacking in basically any LDC I could find to test with it. Other than that, it wasn't obvious whether the voice was coming from an LDC or an SDC. I thought I'd hear clear differences inherent in these mics which are explained by the diaphragm size. Nope. It was just that the CM3 was smoother and more neutral. Have I discovered something others didn't know?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1633
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jpgerard's Avatar
 

Back in the late 90's/early 2000's we tried various SDC's on vocals. I knew there was no reason not to and since I was getting to love the off axis and overall behaviour of SDC's I started to try them out more often. They would win shootouts regularly... yeah some singers ended up picking the 87 but if there was no photos being taken, we'd end up with the better sounding option, which was often an SDC. You do need to be more careful with plosives but there's no reason to leave them out of vocal takes shootouts. Also keep in mind that the CM3 is a full, smooth SDC. You probably wouldn't get to the same conclusion if you had tried the average cheap Chinese SDC... back about 20 years ago I enjoyed AKG's C60's and 460's, Calrecs, MK012's sometimes, KM84's of course, Sony's... then CM3's. I recall that SDC's would work best more often on females than males. But that's nothing scientific. It so depends on the voice of the singer.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1634
Lives for gear
So, when using the CM3 for vocals, what tricks would you employ for avoiding plosives....further distance from the mouth (which could lead to a thinner sound ?), suspending the mic above the nose height and pointing it down at an angle, more or thicker pop filters ?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1635
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jpgerard's Avatar
 

Always had good luck with a Stedman pop filter and telling the singer to control his/her plosives but I remember using a Stedman AND a cheap Nylon one on a particular session. On another session I just used a foam windshield. You lose a bit of air but plosives are taken care of...
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1636
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spambot_2's Avatar
I recently used one to record a guy who didn't have any experience with recording and it went well, I used a homemade nylon pop filter some 10cm from the mic and told the guy to stay at about 15cm from it, the mic was pointed directly to his mouth and plosives were no issue.
Mouth noise was another thing entirely, but that was promptly solved by a bit of coaching to the guy.

Keeping the mic a bit further from the artist may lead to a thinner sound if you consider proximity effect, but that's not as present in subcardioid mics as it is in more directional mics, so I wouldn't sweat it unless you were recording a guy who absolutely needed that low end and you couldn't add it in post.
So apart from the pop filter, I'd simply place the mic further from the artist if plosives were that much of a problem.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1637
Gear Addict
 
fred2bern's Avatar
 

In the classical world you find SDC to record female voices (Bartoli, Petitbon, etc. Trailers available on Utube).

By my side I use my CM-3s to spot the woodwinds and they fit perfectly with the other microphones from Berlin...

Most of time I use a pair of TLM170 to spot the soprano, next time I'll also give a chance to the SDC!

Thanks for sharing, another thing to try...

Salutations de Berne,

Fred.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1638
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Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesta View Post
Have I discovered something others didn't know?
Nope. That's just the laws of physics smacking you upside your head. There's a reason Schoeps doesn't make large diaphragm mics. Now you have an idea of what that reason is.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1639
Gear Maniac
 
Vesta's Avatar
 

I wonder if its a good idea to always place a SDC like the CM3 behind the same pop filter with the LDC and record stereo in the DAW. This way we could add some of that presence boost whenever needed, without having to apply eq, if we decide we need that type of modern sound later. Either blend them to taste or choose whichever signal works best and delete the other side. The unassuming CM3 would hardly get in the way and we'd have so much more control in post.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1640
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesta View Post
I wonder if its a good idea to always place a SDC like the CM3 behind the same pop filter with the LDC and record stereo in the DAW. This way we could add some of that presence boost whenever needed, without having to apply eq, if we decide we need that type of modern sound later. Either blend them to taste or choose whichever signal works best and delete the other side. The unassuming CM3 would hardly get in the way and we'd have so much more control in post.
Nothing to lose by doing so, preferably keeping the front edge of the CM3 in the same vertical plane as the diaphragm of the LDC...although you could move it back if popping becomes an issue
Old 1 week ago
  #1641
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
Well, what's the problem then? If you're happy with both... pick whatever fits your needs and budget. The KM's have a bit less residual noise so maybe an edge here? Or is it irrelevant in this context given the background noise of the venue? If budget is a concern I guess it's an easy decision... Only you can decide. they're both well made and durable. One major difference is the polar pattern. Give a good listen: a bit more room from the CM3's (although you used different placements but that's OK in this example, I guess). If you can afford both and need both Cardioid and Wide Cardioid patterns then we are of no further use
Here are raw excerpts of Mozart's Piano Concerto #20 and Mahler 5 from the concert. These are the main stereo array only-no flankers or spots. Very curious to know if anybody has any clear preferences.
Attached Files

Mahler Excerpt B.mp3 (2.76 MB, 865 views)

Mahler Excerpt A.mp3 (2.76 MB, 852 views)

Mozart Excerpt B.mp3 (2.00 MB, 816 views)

Mozart Excerpt A.mp3 (2.00 MB, 812 views)

Old 1 week ago
  #1642
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jpgerard's Avatar
 

Well... slightly different... can't say I'd pick one over the other, but then I don't know which is closer to the original source, which may be the only way to choose.
Old 1 week ago
  #1643
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jpgerard's Avatar
 

I'm not sure but after several listens A tends to sound a bit more gentle to my ears but I'll have to take a break and do it again later to confirm as they're so close I'm kinda losing my mind here. I could go with both. Placement could probably reduce the differences further, or perhaps a tiny touch of EQ. I know it doesn't help you much but that's what I hear from those files. If you'd said they were the same files with just one being slightly EQ'ed I would have believed you!
Old 1 week ago
  #1644
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spambot_2's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmccoy View Post
Very curious to know if anybody has any clear preferences.
Not absolute preferences, I'd say B has a bit more weight to it, more low end, that I prefer in the Mozart clip but not in the Mahler one.
Particularly in the Mahler clip I thought the sound was a bit less "focused" on the orchestra, and I imagine the A clips being the CM3 and the B clips being the KM140.

Both very good and absolutely usable recordings still.
Old 1 week ago
  #1645
Lives for gear
B has less acoustic and more highs than A. Here I prefer A to B.
A = CM3 and B the KM140 ?
Old 1 week ago
  #1646
Gear Addict
 

Don't own or have not used either mic but what I hear is both sample A's are a much more detailed and neutral tonal balance presentation while both B's are somewhat bright in tonal color and poor in inner detail. To me A sounds much more natural and musical, it's a dramatic improvement over B.
Old 1 week ago
  #1647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
Well... slightly different... can't say I'd pick one over the other, but then I don't know which is closer to the original source, which may be the only way to choose.
Both sets were on a single stand, about six feet over the piano lid on the Mozart and about five feet above and slightly behind the conductor on the Mahler. One set was about two inches above the other, so not a huge difference. In retrospect I think I would have extended them a bit higher for the Mahler.

Thanks for the comments, everyone, and keep 'em comin'! Glad to see I'm not alone in having some difficulty choosing between the two. I'll spill the beans on which is which later today.
Old 1 week ago
  #1648
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jpgerard's Avatar
 

I listened again with different headphones, I couldn't pick one over the other. They're both very usable. I stayed away from previous comments when listening but I just took a look - I think this is a good example of two good microphones that are perfectly competent for the task at hand, and in the end the taste of the user/listener will be the judge...
Old 1 day ago
  #1649
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jpgerard's Avatar
 

Reveal, please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmccoy View Post
Both sets were on a single stand, about six feet over the piano lid on the Mozart and about five feet above and slightly behind the conductor on the Mahler. One set was about two inches above the other, so not a huge difference. In retrospect I think I would have extended them a bit higher for the Mahler.

Thanks for the comments, everyone, and keep 'em comin'! Glad to see I'm not alone in having some difficulty choosing between the two. I'll spill the beans on which is which later today.
Old 1 day ago
  #1650
my immediate thoughts were A is more impressive, it has a more natural sound and also is a bit warmer, I'd also love to know the results
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