The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
New rig for classical guitar, anyone with experience? Dual-Channel Preamps
Old 4 days ago
  #1
Gear Head
 
PTP's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
New rig for classical guitar, anyone with experience?

Hello,

I’m a guitarist from the Netherlands (Europe) and I’m looking for a new mobile rig to record my own performances of classical, flamenco and some acoustic guitar music. So it’s main purpose is for the classical nylon string guitar but also some steel string guitar. Of course, I have done all the searching for months now but I feel like I’m getting lost with all the option out there so I was wondering if anyone here has some experience or advice he or she would like to share. I know space/room, player and instrument is the most important but I think I have that covered. I’m an experienced player with good tone and I have a few of the most amazing instruments in my arsenal (Bert Kwakkel, Francisco Barba, Bourgeois). As for the room, luckily I have options. I have a GIK treated study room which sounds good but is on the smaller side, a fairly large living room which is untreated and sounds quite nice and live but has a regular low ceiling, two large churches that I can use, a smaller chapel and a farmhouse with a high 40ft ceiling.

So let’s start with the mic’s:

1. Sonodore RCM-402 or LDM-54 pair (Norbert Kraft seems to like these, whose work i admire, plus it’s in the Netherlands)
2. Royer SF-24v (I here good things about it, easy placement, and i have had a R121 that i liked very much for electric guitar work)
3. DPA ST4006A
4. Schoeps pair of omni’s
5. Pair of LDM mics like Gefell UM92.1S or Mojave MA-1000

Now the mic pre’s:

Sonodore MPB-502 (for perfect pairing with the Sonodore mics)
1. Forssell SMP-2
2. DW Fearn VT-2 (love these things but I don’t know if it’s perhaps too colored.
Highs are sweet and silky though)
3. QES Labs SMP-2
4. DAV

Converters:

1. Mytek Brooklyn ADC
2. Forssell MADC-2

Recorder:

1. Tascam DA-30000
2. Macbook Pro (already have that)

Major thanks in advance for any help. It would be much appreciated.

Cheers,
Koen.
Old 2 days ago
  #2
Gear Nut
Hi Koen,

You're got a great list of equipment there, you basically can't go wrong. I'll offer some considerations from my experience to think about while you make your choice; I hope something helps (and ymmv)

Different mics need different positions; each mic will react to a room differently, and (for me) will force a different position. For instance, dpa 4006 will often be a six inches higher and a foot or so farther back than I would put a schoeps mk2. This will consequently get a little more room and make a slightly different recording. So when you're choosing your main pair, it will define how close/high/far your recordings will sound. This is why everyone recommends renting; what I like may not be what you like.

With that said, here's my thoughts on your mics. Get the Sonodores. Probably the LDM 54s
Here's why. I've used schoeps mk2 and 2S, DPA 4006 and MG 296S extensively; I'd say from that, for solo guitars I'd choose the m296…which shares physical characteristics with the LDM 54. (PM Earcatcher for opinions on the difference between the two)

That simplifies the preamp: Sonodore.
And for conversion: frankly, just get a Nagra. If you'll be playing you certainly don't need to spend all the energy carrying everything and plugging in. And you can be entirely battery powered. I'm certainly tired of it, just bought a Sound Devices for the smaller channel count stuff.

I hope that helps!
Old 2 days ago
  #3
Lives for gear
 

As a classical guitarist, I am interested in your new mobile rig. I can not offer much advice in terms of practical experience with the gear you are looking at but I can say this: At some point, more research stops being productive and you experience "paralysis of analysis." It sounds like you want to go the Sonodore route and you have some good reasons for doing so. If you hear something better, you will know it, and deal with it then. If you work with equipment you like and know is great, the worst thing that can happen is you get better.
Old 2 days ago
  #4
Lives for gear
 

Classical guitar player for 40 years, recording person for over 20 years here. My favourite mic technique for CG is pure blumlein. I dislike a pair of spaced omnis as there is nothing more exciting than a totally accurate and stable phantom image of the CG in the middle between the loudspeakers, and you don't get this from a spaced pair.

Tonally you need bass well recorded, so a pair of MKH30 in pure Blumlein (not MS blumlein, please) or an AKG C426 or your SF-24v into the Forssell preamp. Wonderful result. Nothing else really matters.
Old 2 days ago
  #5
Lives for gear
I have to agree with David...a single point source recording tends to capture the solidity and coherence of the guitar better than spaced pairs, similar to how I find the sound of piano capture by a small spaced pair near the tail, a la Decca.

I take it you'd frown on the use of an additional 'ambience pair', more widely spaced ? Intuitively I think a single pair, correctly placed, has got a higher chance of success than the risks of phase problems by integrating 2 pairs.

Norbert shows his Naxos alternative here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wbu...N-OEHc&index=6
Old 2 days ago
  #6
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PTP View Post
1. Sonodore RCM-402 or LDM-54 pair (Norbert Kraft seems to like these, whose work i admire, plus it’s in the Netherlands)
2. Royer SF-24v (I here good things about it, easy placement, and i have had a R121 that i liked very much for electric guitar work)
3. DPA ST4006A
4. Schoeps pair of omni’s
5. Pair of LDM mics like Gefell UM92.1S or Mojave MA-1000
Sonodore rcm-402 pair: realistic detail, clarity, freq response and imaging.
Old 1 day ago
  #7
Gear Head
 
PTP's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by VillageOp View Post
With that said, here's my thoughts on your mics. Get the Sonodores. Probably the LDM 54s
Here's why. I've used schoeps mk2 and 2S, DPA 4006 and MG 296S extensively; I'd say from that, for solo guitars I'd choose the m296…which shares physical characteristics with the LDM 54. (PM Earcatcher for opinions on the difference between the two)
Thanks for your reply, I made a phone call to Rens Heijnis yesterday. He also advised me the LDM-54 pair.
Old 1 day ago
  #8
Gear Head
 
PTP's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Classical guitar player for 40 years, recording person for over 20 years here. My favourite mic technique for CG is pure blumlein. I dislike a pair of spaced omnis as there is nothing more exciting than a totally accurate and stable phantom image of the CG in the middle between the loudspeakers, and you don't get this from a spaced pair.

Tonally you need bass well recorded, so a pair of MKH30 in pure Blumlein (not MS blumlein, please) or an AKG C426 or your SF-24v into the Forssell preamp. Wonderful result. Nothing else really matters.
Thanks very much, I totally feel what you're saying. It's primarily the reason why the SF24v is on my list. However, to me it feels like a spaced omni pair sounds a little bigger and more open. I think at his point it's going to be a choice between Sonodore LDM-54 vs Royer SF-24v which makes it more of a choice between mic technique.

Do you know of a good classical guitar recording in blumlein in I can check out as a reference?

Have you ever worked with the SF-24v (or other Royer SF mics)? Do they often need a touch of eq in post? Because I have that experience with the 121. For modern music I don't care but for this setup I want it to be as minimalistic as possible.
Old 1 day ago
  #9
Gear Head
 
PTP's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
I have to agree with David...a single point source recording tends to capture the solidity and coherence of the guitar better than spaced pairs, similar to how I find the sound of piano capture by a small spaced pair near the tail, a la Decca.

I take it you'd frown on the use of an additional 'ambience pair', more widely spaced ? Intuitively I think a single pair, correctly placed, has got a higher chance of success than the risks of phase problems by integrating 2 pairs.

Norbert shows his Naxos alternative here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wbu...N-OEHc&index=6
I have nothing against an additional pair of ambience mics but for now I want to stick to just one main pair. I want to get this right first but it's very likely I'm going to experiment with additional mics in the future.

Norbert is amazing, both as a musician and a technician. As far as I know he uses spaced omni's.
Old 1 day ago
  #10
Here's an example of a spaced pair of DPA 4006s with the silver grid. Preamps were Grace 801, A/D was Meitner.

https://g.co/kgs/9eKuxa
Attached Thumbnails
New rig for classical guitar, anyone with experience?-img_2026.jpg  
Old 20 hours ago
  #11
Lives for gear
I haven't seen such a resonance box used in conjunction with a guitar before, but the mechanical coupling via the spike is a good idea and certainly lends enhanced depth via an additional resonance chamber (and I guess floor placement gives an additional boundary too)
6 strings good...8 strings better ! A mechanical subwoofer box
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iY74itDa-Mw

I expect to see discussion here soon regarding the appropriate mic to put on the resonance box... ......and what's a Tornavoz ?
Old 19 hours ago
  #12
Use an assistant. You don't want your head filled with technical crap if you are to perform. It's a left brain/right brain thing.
Old 16 hours ago
  #13
Lives for gear
 
Earcatcher's Avatar
Hm, I hear my name mentioned... Could offer direct comparison between Schoeps (also available with Rens Heijnis electronics) Mk2, Mk2H, BLM3, Mk21, Mk22, Mk4, Mk41, Mk8, Microtech Gefell M296, M960, Sennheiser MKH20, MKH30, Sonodore RCM-402, LDM-54, Royer SF24, R-122V, Brauner Valvet X, Phanthera, Violet The Emerald (often liked by classical guitarists), The Garnet, The Amethyst Vintage, The Globe Vintage, Sanken CU-44X MkII, Line Audio CM3, AKG C414 B-XLS and some minor AT, Neumann, DPA and Shure stuff. Preamps: ADT TM101, Lake People F355, Forssell SMP-2, Thermionic Culture Earlybird 4, NOS Mone, Rupert Neve Designs Portico II Channel, SPL Frontliner, True Systems P2 analog, various Sound Devices preamps, Focusrite ISA One, Universal Audio LA610 MKII. ADC: Mytek (two different flavours), Lake People, Lynx Hilo, Sound Devices, all optionally clocked by Grimm CC2. Take your pick. About an hour driving from where you live.

Having said that, I would have a good conversation with you first, listening to your playing, before advising to try anything of all that stuff above. Without knowing what sound you are actually looking for it is impossible to give any meaningful advice.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump