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MS tips/techniques for (field) recording
Old 27th June 2017
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Octave Octavio View Post
Would it be weird to do m/s studio and/or field recording with Gefell mics ?

MV692 M94 for cardioid + MV692 UM70 for fig of eight
Not at all - I am working on making an MS clip to clip an M 300, SMS 200 and the like as a mid mic onto a UMT 70S used as a side mic.

As the two diaphragms of the M7 capsule are close together, the fog-8 pattern is pretty good.
Old 27th June 2017
  #32
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Originally Posted by OzGizmo View Post
Yes while that is true.... Even a feature film will one day end up being sent in a transmission system.

I can recall a conversation I had with a film mixer about wide MS, he claimed it was fine and not a problem......UNTIL i got a copy of that film on DVD and played it back to him in mono high lighting the problems that it contained for broadcast.... 20+ years after the film was released.
This is a more-or-less running battle here and other sites about mono compatibility. Some claim that mono rules because lowest common denominator. Others claim that multi-channel (stereo, 5.1, 7.1, etc.) rules because sound quality. Both are correct, which keeps the argument alive.

My observation is that even when DVD was a thing I never listened to one in mono, except when the sound track arrived in mono (common in restorations of old B&W movies from before the 1960s). But until more or less recently I did listen to 5.1 soundtracks and higher in stereo. That is, my AVR mixed them down to stereo for me. I never had one sound less than acceptable; the vast majority were really quite well done.

I'm thinking that this "listen to DVD in mono" isn't a real argument. No manufacturer in the NA market has shipped a mono TV in decades. Similarly for DVD and Blu-ray players. If this is the market, mono compatibility is a non-sequitur.

However, statistics show that most young people watch and listen to movies and other audio-visual content on smartphones and tablets (streaming obviously since these devices can't play a disc). And a lot of these devices still ship mono (insanity, but there it is). But no matter what, these tiny devices just don't sound good. And unless you put your eyes just a few inches from the screen, you don't get the benefits of even HD, much less 4k, so they don't look good either. Clearly people viewing content this way are motivated by convenience, not video/sound quality.

Which leads to my question, kinda sorta. Why are we focusing on people consuming content on such markedly inferior platforms like smartphones? If that's what we are going to do, we should really be recording in mono in the first place.

My conclusion is to more or less ignore mono compatibility. I want it to sound as good as I can make it, and that generally means stereo. And I like the sound quality from spaced arrays, when means less mono compatibility. Oh well.
Old 27th June 2017
  #33
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True. Just about every device, even the most humble/cheapest plays back in stereo as default.
Old 10th July 2017
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwanajim View Post
Octavio: I wanted to help clarify this.
Quick additional question.

How distant (vertically) is it acceptable to have the Mid and Side microphones away from each other. For field recording, I'd like to use two Rycote Classic-Softie windshields instead of the big windscreen but as a consequence I can't stack the two mics right next to each other (because of the space the windshields take, the capsules will be at least 6-7cm away from each other on a vertical axis pointing at the source). Thanks for taking the time to answer.


MID->
|
|
| (how many cm
| at the max. ?) --------------- SOUND SOURCE
|
|
SIDE->

Last edited by Octave Octavio; 10th July 2017 at 11:45 AM..
Old 10th July 2017
  #35
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They need to be as coincident as possible. The further apart, the more issues you'll have with phasing.
Old 10th July 2017
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackHenry View Post
They need to be as coincident as possible. The further apart, the more issues you'll have with phasing.
Yes. Theoretically they should be in the exact same place. The closer you come to that ideal if impossible situation the better off you will be for stereo imaging.
Old 10th July 2017
  #37
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Quote:
They need to be as coincident as possible. The further apart, the more issues you'll have with phasing.
Quote:
Yes. Theoretically they should be in the exact same place. The closer you come to that ideal if impossible situation the better off you will be for stereo imaging.
We can be specific. Closer capsules raises the frequency of onset of comb filtering. Whether and how that affects phase or stereo image audibly is another matter. It might, significantly, depending on the frequencies of the instruments and where they are positioned.

Last edited by David Spearritt; 11th July 2017 at 01:07 AM..
Old 11th July 2017
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
We can be specific. Closer capsules raises the frequency of onset of comb filtering. Whether and how that affects phase or stereo image audibly is another matter. It might, significantly, depending on the frequencies of the instruments and where they are positioned.
....and sometimes, you just have to do the best you can, given the design constraints of the very hardware being employed.... eg https://www.gearslutz.com/board/10521746-post8.html
Old 11th July 2017
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Octave Octavio View Post
Quick additional question.

How distant (vertically) is it acceptable to have the Mid and Side microphones away from each other. For field recording, I'd like to use two Rycote Classic-Softie windshields instead of the big windscreen but as a consequence I can't stack the two mics right next to each other (because of the space the windshields take, the capsules will be at least 6-7cm away from each other on a vertical axis pointing at the source). Thanks for taking the time to answer.
They have to be as close as possible.

I use my MKH 40/30 MS rig in a Rycote stereo windshoeld.

But I thing Rycote are working on doing an MS Cyclone - give them a shout.
Old 11th July 2017
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
They have to be as close as possible.

I use my MKH 40/30 MS rig in a Rycote stereo windshoeld.

But I thing Rycote are working on doing an MS Cyclone - give them a shout.
To me the Rycote ms windshield is really too obtrusive for crown field recording.
Old 11th July 2017
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Octave Octavio View Post
To me the Rycote ms windshield is really too obtrusive for crown field recording.
That's why I mentioned the new MS Cyclone that I think they are working on.
Old 11th July 2017
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
That's why I mentioned the new MS Cyclone that I think they are working on.
ey! thanks. Do you have more info on this Cyclone ?

I'm guessing it has nothing to do with this : https://www.thomann.de/gb/rycote_cyclone.htm
Old 11th July 2017
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Octave Octavio View Post
ey! thanks. Do you have more info on this Cyclone ?

I'm guessing it has nothing to do with this : https://www.thomann.de/gb/rycote_cyclone.htm
The link is to an old Cyclone - the curent version is grey.

I'm not sure if the MS version is the same thing with a new interior for two mics, or something different - but when it comes I want one.
Old 11th July 2017
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Octave Octavio View Post
To me the Rycote ms windshield is really too obtrusive for crown field recording.
Crown?
Old 11th July 2017
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackHenry View Post
Crown?
My bad. I meant to say crowD, street field recording and such
Old 11th July 2017
  #46
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A single Rycote on a stand is less obtrusive than two softies on a stand (or stands)
Old 13th July 2017
  #47
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Are you folks using that Rycote suspended M/S rig? It looks great but seems insanely expensive at nearly $700.
Old 14th July 2017
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dasbin View Post
Are you folks using that Rycote suspended M/S rig? It looks great but seems insanely expensive at nearly $700.
Yep, they're not cheap but still cheaper than a copy of Izotope Rx Advanced (not to mention the hours you'd spend using it) and will do a better job of removing wind and handling noise from your recordings.

OK, Izotope will work on a lot more than that but if you've ever spent several frustrating hours trying to get rid of noises which a decent shock mount and wind shield would've avoided in the first place, and had to do it more than once, you'll appreciate the value of something like the Rycote setup.

People generally don't buy them because they had nothing more fun to do with their money but because they need something to solve a problem and Rycote kit works and works well. As a bonus, you also get superb after sales service from a company that actually cares about it's customers and listens to their needs but only you know whether a $700 winshield/mount system is something you need or can justify in the kind of work you do.

Maybe for a hobbyist who can pick his recording days and locations to avoid problems and doesnt mind living with/spending time fixing the remaining noise issues it's overkill but if this is your job or you need the best results you can get out of every situation and you have no say over the circumstances of the recording, or simply want to be able to enjoy recording in a wider range of situations, it can be a tool thats worth every penny. I'd look at it as a proportion of the mic cost and how much use it would get.

If you've spent thousands on mics to do outdoor recordings then it's probaby a false economy to limit your results by not giving them the best possible chance to work; if you're using a few hundred dollars worth of budget mics then a mount/windshield that costs more than the mics could appear to be a bad idea. Though, where a Rycote is the solution, budget mics will benefit from it just as much and it's one less thing you'd need to upgrade as you go.

If you normally record indoors and don't normally need the level of protection offered by something like a Rycote setup more than a few times a year then it probably wouldn't be a priority item and you could rent one a lot of times for the cost of buying it, or just bodge something workable. However, if most of your recording is outdoors or in situations where the Rycote would make a worthwhile improvement, then it makes sense to buy one.
Old 24th July 2017
  #49
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hey! I received the MKH30 today. It's really smaller than expected.

Any recommendation for a small less intrusive windjammer+fur kit ? It doesn't have to be Rycote.
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