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All-round bass instrument mic ?
Old 17th April 2017
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Yes this seems to be the case with mics marketed particularly for that purpose...they seem to not be designed for either flat (or even extended) bass response, but rather to be hyped in the area of perceived maximum impact. Of course this is quite dependent on placement as well !

See examples from AKG: http://cloud.akg.com/10968/d112_mkii_qug.pdf

and to a lesser extent RE-20: https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...Ig-4H12zybvZVg
I posted the D112 response above already.

The RE20 is quite flat in my experience and I interpret the frequency response graph that way too.

I don't think it's marketed or was designed for kick. I love it on a lot of things—it can be magical on upright bass for jazz–but, amusingly, it's too flat on kick for me.
Old 17th April 2017
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Yes that certainly captures a lot of the lower end punch (the mono spot) as well as the bow and pizz with good detail...seems like a good all-rounder ? Did the YouTube video combine the 101FET with the bridge pickup, as the sound there seems rounder ?
It has a boost of about +6 dB at around 6k–there's your "punch". It has less to do with low end. I find that people (including myself) often roll off the low end on acoustic jazz bass if anything.

Very interesting frequency response—could be useful where you want a smiley curve but a D112 isn't fitting.

Kudos to shosty for posting samples.
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Old 17th April 2017
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grrrayson View Post
How many of these do you use for an orchestral bass section spot?

I am not a big fan of Spot Mics for percussion in orchestras but if I had to choose it would probably be the M-500 from Beyer.

FWIW
Old 17th April 2017
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shosty View Post
For the YouTube the spot is combined with two Royer mains in Blumlein. I didn't spot the bass cabinet or plug his pick up into a mic pre. The bass cab may or may not be turned on, hmm can't remember...

Btw, it has an internally switchable -15dB pad allowing for 135dB SPL.
The most important ingredient in getting a good bass sound in situations like this has nothing to do with microphones or even basses but simply having a quiet drummer! =)
Old 17th April 2017
  #35
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Thread Starter
I think I'll remain with my venerable, old, versatile U89i for double bass duties, and go for a new Sennheiser e602II for the occasional kick drum (perhaps even paired with an Earthworks KP1 Kickpad, for a little 'pre-eq')
Old 17th April 2017
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grrrayson View Post
It has a boost of about +6 dB at around 6k–there's your "punch". It has less to do with low end. I find that people (including myself) often roll off the low end on acoustic jazz bass if anything.

Very interesting frequency response—could be useful where you want a smiley curve but a D112 isn't fitting.

Kudos to shosty for posting samples.
Thank you grrayson.

Interesting about the bump at 6k and the "punch". So a frequency that high would effect the perceived punch in the low end? Learn something new everyday. Very cool.
Old 17th April 2017
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grrrayson View Post
I don't think [the RE20] is marketed or was designed for kick. I love it on a lot of things—it can be magical on upright bass for jazz–but, amusingly, it's too flat on kick for me.
Back when it was assumed that people had consoles, a "flat" mics on kick was fine because you'd just grab some knobs and "smiley-ize" it on the way in. But now lots of people can't or won't eq on the way in, so there's a market for a kick mic that does it for them.
Old 17th April 2017
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shosty View Post
Thank you grrayson.

Interesting about the bump at 6k and the "punch". So a frequency that high would effect the perceived punch in the low end? Learn something new everyday. Very cool.
No, that's not exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying the "punch" lives in the high end.

(Not) Sorry to be a broken record here: it goes back to what I was saying earlier about all these instruments really being full-range instruments.
Old 17th April 2017
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Back when it was assumed that people had consoles, a "flat" mics on kick was fine because you'd just grab some knobs and "smiley-ize" it on the way in. But now lots of people can't or won't eq on the way in, so there's a market for a kick mic that does it for them.
That's a good point.

Yet I still don't like the RE20 on kick even with generous EQ. Maybe it's me. As stated, I love that mic on lots of other things. I like the Beyerdynamic M 88, RCA BK-5B, and Sennheiser 441 mics better than the RE20 on kick, regardless of how much EQ they get.
Old 17th April 2017
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
I think I'll remain with my venerable, old, versatile U89i for double bass duties, and go for a new Sennheiser e602II for the occasional kick drum (perhaps even paired with an Earthworks KP1 Kickpad, for a little 'pre-eq')
After this whole long thread you decide on a mic that wasn't even listed?

Why not get something that you could also use on horns and vocals (and that might sound even better on kick anyway)?
Old 17th April 2017
  #41
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Originally Posted by grrrayson View Post
Yet I still don't like the RE20 on kick even with generous EQ. Maybe it's me.
The period is was talking about was also back when the kick usually had the front head off and the beater head damped with an Atlas mic stand base wrapped in a sweatshirt. Different deal from now. I can't see the RE20 being of any use either through the hole or out front.
Old 17th April 2017
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grrrayson View Post
No, that's not exactly what I'm saying. I'm saying the "punch" lives in the high end.

(Not) Sorry to be a broken record here: it goes back to what I was saying earlier about all these instruments really being full-range instruments.
I read your previous post more carefully. The idea of seeing an upright bass as a full-range instrument is quite valid, I think.

One thing I've noticed over the years is how much difference a new pair of top strings makes on a cello or bass. If the low notes sound dead, often a new pair of top strings solves the problem by producing more harmonic content via sympathetic vibration. I often suggest this to students who are low on cash to try this first before replacing all 4 strings.
Old 18th April 2017
  #43
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by grrrayson View Post
After this whole long thread you decide on a mic that wasn't even listed?

Why not get something that you could also use on horns and vocals (and that might sound even better on kick anyway)?
That's a good point, the Sennheiser e602 would very much become a one trick pony, whereas an Audix D6 or ATM25 or E/V RE20 would have more general application...'though kick and bass amp cabinet is the prime reason for seeking.
Old 18th April 2017
  #44
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Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
That's a good point, the Sennheiser e602 would very much become a one trick pony, whereas an Audix D6 or ATM25 or E/V RE20 would have more general application...'though kick and bass amp cabinet is the prime reason for seeking.
A 441 or RE20 or (maybe to a lesser degree) M 88 can all work well–very, very well, even—on lead vocals.

I've made a policy of buying multi-purpose mics in multiples and that has served me well. Buying single-use mics is generally a waste of money.
Old 18th April 2017
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shosty View Post
One thing I've noticed over the years is how much difference a new pair of top strings makes on a cello or bass. If the low notes sound dead, often a new pair of top strings solves the problem by producing more harmonic content via sympathetic vibration. I often suggest this to students who are low on cash to try this first before replacing all 4 strings.
This is very interesting and not something I'd thought of before.

As for the rest, just think about it—when a kick drum needs to sound more punchy, do you turn up the low end? No, you crank the 4kHz.

More instruments than not are full-range. The exceptions are usually the instruments opposite this thread—things like violin or flute that have no bass. But still, as I illustrated above, the mics that often work for these sources are commonly mics that work well for bass sources too. You will be familiar with this as someone who owns ribbon mics.
Old 18th April 2017
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grrrayson View Post
This is very interesting and not something I'd thought of before.

As for the rest, just think about it—when a kick drum needs to sound more punchy, do you turn up the low end? No, you crank the 4kHz.

More instruments than not are full-range. The exceptions are usually the instruments opposite this thread—things like violin or flute that have no bass. But still, as I illustrated above, the mics that often work for these sources are commonly mics that work well for bass sources too. You will be familiar with this as someone who owns ribbon mics.
I appreciate your thoughts on this. All of the "low" pitched instruments still have a great deal of upper overtones (not to mention that bass solos can get quite high too) and timbral complexity. And I believe the kick drum is basically "inharmonic" with a lot of upper register information (I'd be curious to talk to our perc faculty on this). Anyway, all of this would be lost on mics that did not also work well on the violin and flute, for example.

Well, good points, grrayson. I hadn't thought of seeing the bass or kick drum as full range instruments but I wholeheartedly agree with you that they are.
Old 18th April 2017
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shosty View Post
I believe the kick drum is basically "inharmonic" with a lot of upper register information (I'd be curious to talk to our perc faculty on this).
Which is why, when you mic a drum kit, you might want to think about whether your overhead(s) can "see" the kick drum beater.
Old 19th April 2017
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shosty View Post
good points
I'm glad you agree and I'm happy to help. Hopefully the point wasn't lost on our o.p. here.

Cheers!
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