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Rode NTR Blumlein/M/S
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1
Here for the gear
 

Thread Starter
Rode NTR Blumlein/M/S

Hi!

I am thinking of buying a couple of Rode NTR´s for recording chamber music, choir, choir with chamber orchestra, and piano (solo).

- Does anybody have sound samples of two Rode NTR`s used in Blumlein or Blumlein M/S?
- Have anyone tried mounting two Rode NTR´s side by side on a stereo bar and have the mics aligned like one would for Blumlein or M/S?

Best wishes,

Knut
Old 2 weeks ago
  #2
Lives for gear
The review hints at problems of coincident mounting, due to the size of the basket cages

Rode NTR |

At around a kilogram each, make sure your stand is robust and not easily tipped over, if recording concerts.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #3
Gear Maniac
 

yes, I've tried it - picture attached. It's very hard to get the capsules close enough for MS/Blumlein when mounted on the one bar (see photo). Apart from anything, the shading of the back lobe of the Mid mic by the grille of the Side mic worries me. Mounting one inverted over the other using two stands works better, but they are VERY heavy so it needs a good boom stand for the top mic.
Attached Thumbnails
Rode NTR Blumlein/M/S-ntr-ms.jpg  
Old 2 weeks ago
  #4
Gear Addict
 

Recording in Blumlein of Jazz Band

I recorded a 6 piece Jazz Band with a pair of MKH30 mic's side by side with mic clips 1 or 2 mm. apart with the mic's vertical and I thought the imaging was messed up and it sounded phasey in a bad way, seemed like I heard the spacing between the mic's. However the audience applause was very realistic, in fact I thought it sounded better and more realistic than what was coming off the front of the mic's. One capsule above the other is probably the ideal.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #5
Here for the gear
 

Thread Starter
Thanks for your replies, studer 58, njrsound and sd270!

Have you tried any other stereo methods with the Ntr´s? What kind of problems did you get from shadowing, njrsound? I saw a photo where Tony Faulkner used them in a m/s-setup with the mics next to each other, but there werenˋt any sound files attached to the post.

Best wishes,

Kmut
Old 2 weeks ago
  #6
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hughesmr's Avatar
Have you considered AEA N8s instead?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #7
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What about a pair of MKH30's, great mic's, easy to set up. I use mine horizontally with a spacer lifting one mic, easy to get the capsules aligned at 90 degrees with my Superlux MA100 stereo bar, it has 15, 30 and 45 degree settings. Doing Blumlein with this setup.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #8
Well if the op specifically wants the NTRs, then perhaps look for a bar like the cascade version for fet heads.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #9
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Tommy-boy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
Well if the op specifically wants the NTRs, then perhaps look for a bar like the cascade version for fet heads.
I have the stereo fathead2 kit and the bar they supply sturdy and convenient. The bars are also sold individually.

Tom
Old 2 weeks ago
  #10
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esldude's Avatar
 

Haven't used the NTR's, but with other ribbons I mount them vertically. One in normal position and one upside down above it and pointed 90 degrees in a different direction. Seems to work nicely this way. Definitely better than trying a side by side arrangement where one mic shades the other.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #11
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by esldude View Post
Haven't used the NTR's, but with other ribbons I mount them vertically. One in normal position and one upside down above it and pointed 90 degrees in a different direction. Seems to work nicely this way. Definitely better than trying a side by side arrangement where one mic shades the other.
I understand the hesitancy in deploying the side by side technique but you only have to check what Roger (Rolo 46) is doing with this array using Sennheiser MKH30's which are figure-8's to see a clear demonstration of how well this works. The shadow does not seem a problem at all. I would at least try it before dismissing it. You know the old adage, "One test is worth a thousand opinions." And Roger is quite knowledgeable.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #12
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
With Blumlein techniques, the preference is to get the two capsules as close together as possible. With SDC mics, the side-by-side configuration advocated by Rolo 46 (Roger) seems ideal. With LDC mics or larger ribbons like the NTR or Fathead, I suspect the over-under approach is the best, although the visual impingement is greater.

Old 2 weeks ago
  #13
Gear Addict
I prefer my mrp01 ribbons side-by-side for MS [it's also much easier to mount].
Attached Thumbnails
Rode NTR Blumlein/M/S-rouen-ms.jpg  
Old 2 weeks ago
  #14
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by heva View Post
I prefer my mrp01 ribbons side-by-side for MS [it's also much easier to mount].
Agreed, but they are much less 'bulky' than the Rode NTRs that the OP is considering.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #15
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esldude's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
I understand the hesitancy in deploying the side by side technique but you only have to check what Roger (Rolo 46) is doing with this array using Sennheiser MKH30's which are figure-8's to see a clear demonstration of how well this works. The shadow does not seem a problem at all. I would at least try it before dismissing it. You know the old adage, "One test is worth a thousand opinions." And Roger is quite knowledgeable.
I have done Blumlein with figure 8 condensers side by side as well as vertical. Don't see a big preference either way. Rolo 46 is using smaller condensers in the Senn's so I could believe that works just fine. You'll be able to get the capsules quite close together. His results are there for anyone to hear.

When I have used ribbons however the vertical worked out better than side by side. As I noted previously I wasn't using the NTRs though my ribbons are of a similar size. I wonder if it works differently with ribbons being velocity mics compared to pressure mics like condensers. That might make them act differently when shaded beyond just the physically larger structure.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #16
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by esldude View Post
I have done Blumlein with figure 8 condensers side by side as well as vertical. Don't see a big preference either way. Rolo 46 is using smaller condensers in the Senn's so I could believe that works just fine. You'll be able to get the capsules quite close together. His results are there for anyone to hear.

When I have used ribbons however the vertical worked out better than side by side. As I noted previously I wasn't using the NTRs though my ribbons are of a similar size. I wonder if it works differently with ribbons being velocity mics compared to pressure mics like condensers. That might make them act differently when shaded beyond just the physically larger structure.
The ribbon, as narrow as it is, could be blocked too much by the M mic alongside it. I bet that is it. When I think of the MRP-01's the M mic is wide enough that it could possibly block the S mic.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #17
Here for the gear
 

Thread Starter
Thanks for interesting responses. It would be really nice if someone could post an audio clip of the NTRs or ribbons of similar size mounted vertical (in quasi blumlein or m/s) so that we could hear potential problems with this array.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #18
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I think another important consideration is that Rolo 46's setup has the side mic directly behind the mid mic, so that any shading that happens occurs on the (-) side of the mid mic, which is arguably the least important pickup area.

-Mike
Old 2 weeks ago
  #19
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by celticrogues View Post
I think another important consideration is that Rolo 46's setup has the side mic directly behind the mid mic, so that any shading that happens occurs on the (-) side of the mid mic, which is arguably the least important pickup area.

-Mike
Mike, I had expected Roger to jump in here by now, but maybe I will wade in... I used to believe Roger's rig was as you describe. Then I read in this thread that he has the two MKH 30s side-by-side:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
...I mark the M front + phase of my 30 with a red dot and the S front + phase with a green dot for identification
Red ship leaves port, ie Red is left...
Roger
So, in reality one side of his "S" is coming through the "M" mic. Incredible but true! (Maybe that is his 'secret sauce') Here is a picture of Roger's rig:
Old 2 weeks ago
  #20
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celticrogues's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
Mike, I had expected Roger to jump in here by now, but maybe I will wade in... I used to believe Roger's rig was as you describe. Then I read in this thread that he has the two MKH 30s side-by-side:

So, in reality one side of his "S" is coming through the "M" mic. Incredible but true! (Maybe that is his 'secret sauce') Here is a picture of Roger's rig:
Oh!

Well now my mind is blown... His recordings certainly speak for themselves.

Would love to hear the reasoning behind this @Rolo 46 if you care to jump in.

-Mike
Old 2 weeks ago
  #21
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hughesmr's Avatar
This is why I suggested the AEA N8s earlier. In the reasonably close ballpark to the NTR, active, not as bulky, and can be ordered with a Blumlein mount with a pair. Oh, and they sound fantastic.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #22
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boojum's Avatar
For some reason the NTR's came on the market with much fanfare and excitement and then died. It is quite the same with the Samars VL373A which has not died but did poorly in the shoot out. I am pleased with how well it does recording a local chorale. I do believe that Samar will fare better than the Rode, however. I am surprised that Rode has not reworked it some and re-released an it in an improved version. Maybe they will.

I am lining up a session with a local classical and jazz guitarist and teacher and will post the results from that. Chorale tracks that I sent to amentor were judged as better than Schoeps which is my opinion, too. They are very accurate and have a shimmer. Hopefully the guitar sessions will happen soon.

Last edited by boojum; 2 weeks ago at 06:12 AM..
Old 2 weeks ago
  #23
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
The ribbon, as narrow as it is, could be blocked too much by the M mic alongside it. I bet that is it. When I think of the MRP-01's the M mic is wide enough that it could possibly block the S mic.
But on comparing both setups [over/under vs sideways], to my ears, the mrp01's in any case sounded just a tad better sideways ['tighter' if that makes sense].
Indeed, the Rodes are bulkier, but then, if they're good enough [also in sideways MS] for TonyF ......
Old 2 weeks ago
  #24
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
For some reason the NTR's came on the market with much fanfare and excitement and then died. It is quite the same with the Samars VL373A which has not died but did poorly in the shoot out. I am pleased with how well it does recording a local chorale. I do believe that Samar will fare better than the Rode, however. I am surprised that Rode has not reworked it some and re-released an it in an improved version. Maybe they will.
Rode have reworked mics, but in their own good time....it seems the new black finish NT5 will be an improvement of over the original, as the Classic II was over the first Classic tube mic.

I suspect the NTR hasn't yet found its niche...and it may well become a go-to for guitar cabinets, pop vocals or drum overheads...but the right 'critical mass' of users in those genres (including perhaps ringing endorsements from "name" studio engineers) needs to precede such acceptance. These things can take time to solidify and become accepted/received practice....
Old 2 weeks ago
  #25
Gear Addict
An NTR-Valve is comping up AND Rens Heijnis offers a modded NTR [seen on his FB].
Old 2 weeks ago
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by celticrogues View Post
Oh!

Well now my mind is blown... His recordings certainly speak for themselves.

Would love to hear the reasoning behind this @Rolo 46 if you care to jump in.

-Mike
I have tried fore and aft ,and side by side mountings for the 30s
They don't shadow in either situation
Both work
However the rear field is why the 30 sounds so good, so I plumped for side by side
Pragmatic as ever, no secret sauce Gents
Roger
Old 2 weeks ago
  #27
Gear Head
Two Manfrotto mic bars. Recording of piano tuner friend. First part of recording is una corda, hence the darkness at beginning.
Attached Thumbnails
Rode NTR Blumlein/M/S-ntr_position.jpg   Rode NTR Blumlein/M/S-ntr_ms_mount.jpg  
Attached Files

Burnley2.mp3 (2.31 MB, 377 views)


Last edited by blanneau; 2 weeks ago at 02:06 PM.. Reason: Additional information
Old 1 week ago
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
For some reason the NTR's came on the market with much fanfare and excitement and then died ... I am surprised that Rode has not reworked it some and re-released an it in an improved version.
What do you think needs improving about the NTR? I think it's a really good mic. Certainly I have never heard such good bass response from any other ribbon.

That said, it doesn't have the immediacy of something like a Royer, with its hefty upper mid boost. Maybe people are expecting a more flattering sound?
Old 1 week ago
  #29
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by blanneau View Post
Two Manfrotto mic bars. Recording of piano tuner friend. First part of recording is una corda, hence the darkness at beginning.
That sounds really nice. How did you arrive at the mic stand position?
Old 1 week ago
  #30
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tourtelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
That sounds really nice. How did you arrive at the mic stand position?
From the picture, seems like a (more or less) likely position for the pair. My question is why M/S and not Blumlein?

Oh and sandy. The Samar better show it's good side. A lot of money to pay if it only sounds like a Rode (just sayin )

I am trying it this weekend on chamber music in a good room. We shall see.

D.
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