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CM3 tiny detail that is a BIG detail.
Old 6th April 2017
  #1
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Howie J's Avatar
 

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CM3 tiny detail that is a BIG detail.

So, my life has been insanely busy since I bought my CM3's. Used them for a couple gigs...they are solid mics...do what I need them to and then some. Many of you have probably already figured this out...but..I'm a tired dad/engineer/teacher and this was just an awesome revelation. LOL

(short story long...my middle school band teaching job went over full time last fall, we had our 2nd little one in February, have a 4 yr. old, all while maintaining a performing schedule and adjunct college teaching...etc, etc. )

Last week, I was changing out my PortaBrace bag since I didn't need all my mics and swapped with some MIDI controllers for teaching.

My 4 yr old son got ahold of one of my CM3's...opened it..I showed him how it goes in the mount, etc. He left the mic clip on my desk, but we put the mic away..

2 days later...I go to put the mic clip away after moving it across the desk a couple times....it's THEN I realize.....

LINE audio solved the issue of the 3/8" vs 5/8" issue and lost adapters by tapping the 3/8" threads up inside and above the 5/8" threads.

Mind...blown...



(disclaimer...I also fell asleep last week while checking email on my iPad and had it hit me in the face after our newborn kept us up all night...so take my amazement with a grain of salt....LOL)
Old 6th April 2017
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howie J View Post
LINE audio solved the issue of the 3/8" vs 5/8" issue and lost adapters by tapping the 3/8" threads up inside and above the 5/8" threads.
Such a brilliantly simple solution to the 'you can never have too many standards' headache with mic mounts (even 2 is one too many) !

It's probably saved me hours of scurrying though adapters (of both types) on location...and why it's often my go-to mic mount if I'm in a hurry, with any SD mic, not just Line Audio.

If they'd just made it with Rycote lyres (Inv-6 ?) included, it would be mic-mount nirvana...and they'd sell boatloads of 'em !
Old 6th April 2017
  #3
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It's true this seems like a cool thing at first however in practice I havent been too happy with it. Not having the 5/8" threads the whole way means that on several of the mounts I've used the clip with there aren't enough 5/8" threads to fully grab onto the mount and hold the mic without it twisting around. It just doesnt screw on as firmly as with a full set of threads.

Ymmv of course.

-Mike
Old 6th April 2017
  #4
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Yes you're right Mike...that's a detail I'd forgotten: there are barely 3.5 threads for the 5/8 bore, whereas the 3/8 looks to have around 8 or more threads (more than sufficient).

I don't know why they stopped so early with the 5/8 bore section...it completely precludes using any sort of locking ring ...and it's alarming to give a release twist on a mic in the mount, and have it come off in your hand !
Old 6th April 2017
  #5
Are you talking about the standard or isolation mounts?
Old 6th April 2017
  #6
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Howie J View Post
My 4 yr old son got ahold of one of my CM3's...opened it..
For a moment, having raised two kids, I thought your story was going to take an alarming turn about an expensive toy . . .
Old 6th April 2017
  #7
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Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Yes you're right Mike...that's a detail I'd forgotten: there are barely 3.5 threads for the 5/8 bore, whereas the 3/8 looks to have around 8 or more threads (more than sufficient).
Three threads is usually more than sufficient. When you tighten down on a threaded joint, the force generated by elongating the screw shaft is translated to the nut by the thread engagement between screw and nut. The threads seeing the force deflect and therefore fully engage, making a surprisingly large contact area to carry said force. It's this large contact area between the threads of the screw and nut that is responsible for the friction that holds the joint together when you "tighten down that screw".

Interestingly, (to me anyway) about the maximum you can expect to see this thread deflection go is three threads. Doesn't seem to matter how big or small the screw is, the rule of thumb is that all the forces in the threaded joint get carried by three threads or less. This is probably due to the normal design strategy of designing the screw shaft to fail in tension before the threads of the nut strip out. ASME (and their sister organizations around the world) has standards upon standards about the uses and designs of threaded fasteners. People still get Ph.Ds researching threaded fastener behavior.

Worse, the forces aren't spread evenly along the threads. The forces are highest where the junction starts (that is, the threads closest to the end of the screw you put a wrench on). By the time the threads quit deflecting (three threads in) the forces are much lower. Which is why the threads quit deflecting (which typically happens before three threads are fully engaged).

BTW, if you're hand tightening that screw, like you would with a mic mount, you're probably looking at well less than a single thread carrying your tightening force, probably more along the lines of 1/4 of a thread.

All that said, I realize that it "feels better" to have some screw threads showing on the other side of a nut, even when I know those threads do absolutely nothing beyond increasing weight, cost, and making it take longer to put things together. There's almost always a difference between what you actually need, and what you think you need.
Old 7th April 2017
  #8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
There's almost always a difference between what you actually need, and what you think you need.
One of my professors called that "The Murphy Tax".
Old 7th April 2017
  #9
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
All that said, I realize that it "feels better" to have some screw threads showing on the other side of a nut, even when I know those threads do absolutely nothing beyond increasing weight, cost, and making it take longer to put things together. There's almost always a difference between what you actually need, and what you think you need.
I don't know Bruce...I spent half a lifetime working with pressure control equipment in oil & gas; American Petroleum Institute and a host of other regulating authorities stipulate that that a nut on a stud used for bolting flanges must always be "fully threaded + one full thread showing". Admittedly a mic clip is a less critical threaded application, but I prefer to have ten or more 5/8"-27 threads engaged. Given that a lot of these threads are cut in nylon or brass, its all too easy to strip the threads when only three are engaged. Just my $0.02 as a old oilfield hand...
Old 7th April 2017
  #10
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Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
Are you talking about the standard or isolation mounts?
std...I don't have the isolation mounts, are they similarly threaded ?
Old 7th April 2017
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Watson View Post
All that said, I realize that it "feels better" to have some screw threads showing on the other side of a nut, even when I know those threads do absolutely nothing beyond increasing weight, cost, and making it take longer to put things together. There's almost always a difference between what you actually need, and what you think you need.
I'm not disputing the engineering background you've outlined here Bruce, but there are some occasions where a half twist has seen the mic mount come off in my hand (unexpectedly)...that's alarming !

I don't recall the particular circumstance...it could have been a thread mismatch between end of stand (likely belonging to the venue) and mount, and thus a cross-thread situation. Alternatively, it's possible there were few available threads at the top of the stand, perhaps due to a locking collar consuming some of the available threaded area ?

I made a quick test with the CM3 mount and a generous length of 5/8" thread...it came off with exactly 2 full turns of my hand. That is fine by me. It's the alarming scenario above that I don't like...it could just as easily have occurred by a heavy mic cable pulling the mount off the stand if the cable wasn't attached to the boom with a clip or gaffa tape
Old 7th April 2017
  #12
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You guys need to get out more.
Old 7th April 2017
  #13
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Close-up of the threaded end of CM3/OM1 mic mounts
Attached Thumbnails
CM3 tiny detail that is a BIG detail.-imgp0779.jpg  
Old 7th April 2017
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
You guys need to get out more.
If we only used the mics at home, it wouldn't be an issue ......
Old 7th April 2017
  #15
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Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
I don't know Bruce...I spent half a lifetime working with pressure control equipment in oil & gas; American Petroleum Institute and a host of other regulating authorities stipulate that that a nut on a stud used for bolting flanges must always be "fully threaded + one full thread showing". Admittedly a mic clip is a less critical threaded application, but I prefer to have ten or more 5/8"-27 threads engaged. Given that a lot of these threads are cut in nylon or brass, its all too easy to strip the threads when only three are engaged. Just my $0.02 as a old oilfield hand...
I seem to recall that the airplane industry requires the same. What I remember though is that this is done for ease of inspection -- if you don't do it this way, the inspectors can't tell whether the bolt is installed properly or at all just by looking at it. And that's what they need -- to tell just by looking at it.

There are many reasons to use more than is necessary -- from oversized screws to make hand assembly more efficient, to special corrosion resisting platings used for aesthetics.
Old 7th April 2017
  #16
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Is the CMEH mount the same?
Old 7th April 2017
  #17
I don't think the CMEH is the same. I'll check when I get home.
Old 7th April 2017
  #18
Gear Head
The CMEH is not the same, I don't think. But if I recall correctly, it comes with the adaptor inside of the bigger thread.
Old 7th April 2017
  #19
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Ohhh goody ... more adapters to lose
Old 8th April 2017
  #20
Behringer c2 clips have the same threading. Great idea.
Old 11th April 2017
  #21
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James Lehmann's Avatar
 

This ranks up there alongside the discovery that the FMR RNC compressor can work with a single TRS cable.

File under: 'Why-don't-more-manufacturers-do-that?'

Last edited by James Lehmann; 11th April 2017 at 01:14 PM..
Old 11th April 2017
  #22
Gear Addict
With a 3/8 threaded mic stand how much of the 3/8 mic mount is actually engaged?
Old 11th April 2017
  #23
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"As much as possible"...?



HB
Old 12th April 2017
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
With a 3/8 threaded mic stand how much of the 3/8 mic mount is actually engaged?
100%...which isn't enough for me. You can see from the photo above...if they'd devoted 50% of the total depth to 5/8 and 50% to 3/8 everyone would be happy
Old 13th April 2017
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
100%...which isn't enough for me. You can see from the photo above...if they'd devoted 50% of the total depth to 5/8 and 50% to 3/8 everyone would be happy
The point I was trying to make is that
if you have a 3/8" male thread on a stand
and if the Base of the 3/8 thread is too wide to fit inside the 5/8 portion of the mic mount then you might not have much
of the 3/8 stand thread engaged in the 3/8 portion of the mic mount.
Old 13th April 2017
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
The point I was trying to make is that
if you have a 3/8" male thread on a stand
and if the Base of the 3/8 thread is too wide to fit inside the 5/8 portion of the mic mount then you might not have much
of the 3/8 stand thread engaged in the 3/8 portion of the mic mount.
That's right, but not so bad a situation...the first pic shows the thread adapter (used to illustrate the top of a 3/8 mic stand) attached to the 3/8 thread by 1 turn, and the second shows the relative length of the adapter thread.

By my quick trial, it takes 3 full turns of the adapter to snug it up tight to the mic clip base edge, which is plenty of leeway for tightening...better than the 2 turns the 5/8 thread allows.
Attached Thumbnails
CM3 tiny detail that is a BIG detail.-imgp0781.jpg   CM3 tiny detail that is a BIG detail.-imgp0782.jpg  
Old 13th April 2017
  #27
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Its a compromise. A neat idea but I'll stick with the 3/8 to 5/8 adaptors. They're cheap and cheerful and I must have more than a dozen of them kicking around...enough to put one in every mic case I am likely to drag to the session.
Old 14th April 2017
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
Its a compromise. A neat idea but I'll stick with the 3/8 to 5/8 adaptors. They're cheap and cheerful and I must have more than a dozen of them kicking around...enough to put one in every mic case I am likely to drag to the session.
That's what most of us have probably been doing for decades, if there's a chance we might have to cross paths with stands or mic holders we don't own ourselves.

The only trouble with the adapters (most types) is that they can get so deeply and tightly lodged in the mic holders, that a pair of pliers/grips or a wide flat blade screwdriver tip is often required to remove them !
Attached Thumbnails
CM3 tiny detail that is a BIG detail.-imgp0788.jpg  
Old 14th April 2017
  #29
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Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
That's what most of us have probably been doing for decades, if there's a chance we might have to cross paths with stands or mic holders we don't own ourselves.

The only trouble with the adapters (most types) is that they can get so deeply and tightly lodged in the mic holders, that a pair of pliers/grips or a wide flat blade screwdriver tip is often required to remove them !
Typically a quarter (25 Cent piece) is enough screwdriver to get them out.
Old 14th April 2017
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elegentdrum View Post
Typically a quarter (25 Cent piece) is enough screwdriver to get them out.
Mostly, yes...my biggest mistake has been to use the thinner adapter you see pictured on the left, which can get stuck WAAAAY down in the barrel of a mic holder, where no quarter edge can reach it ! I don't do that any more.....
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